Controversial Locations - Where do YOU draw the line?

I agree with FANtasticBJD completely. I actually do have a couple of these "touchy" places planned, or would not hesitate to take a photo in.
Graveyard- One day I intend to take my girl out to my grandfather's grave. Ever since he died I've made a point to go and "Show" him different things I was interested in (I actually put all of my favorite Star Wars comic books in his casket so he would have something to read- I was 7 at the time) I feel like taking a couple pictures of her resting by his plate would be a way for me to show him this hobby I've picked up.
Graveyard/political hotspot- My boyfriend and I are going to DC later this summer, and one of our most important stops on the trip will be Arlington. It's a very important place for us because it's where we want our final resting place to be. (He's in the Navy) I'd like to take at least one snapshot of my girl there (Probably holding a small american flag) as a momento.
Church- I'm an athiest, but I often accompany my mom to church because I love to learn about religions, and the pastor is a fascinating speaker. This particular church is very large, very modern, and very casual. There's a massive lobby between the front doors and the church that has a bookstore, cafe, free wifi, and quite a few couches. People are welcome to just relax and do as they please, and honestly I'd feel really comfortable and at-ease having a little photoshoot of my girl at the couches.
I think as long as the message, and intentions, are good, anywhere is ok.

 

I'm sorry but I would have to adamantly disagree with this statement. I would like to make clear however that this is not an attack on girlwholived, I am merely using her statement to illustrate a point. To start a cemetery and a war zone are two different things, and the photographer is making two completely different statements. Vietnam was an illegal war and tremendous atrocities were being committed. The photographers were raising awareness of the crimes against basic human rights. You cannot liken a hobby to life changing recordings, no matter how beautiful the final results may be.

I'm not saying that I disagree with the use of cemeteries however, but a certain amount of sensitivity must be maintained. Yes, I'm sure it's pretty hard to offend the dead (no matter what Hollywood would have you believe) but a grave stone is a memorial of somebody's loved one. Someone grieves there, that stone represent a life that was so important that a relative, friend or lover wanted to make sure that they were not forgotten.

By all means, celelbrate that life, but do it with an awareness of the fact that that is what the gravestone represent, a life. Whether or not you believe in god, subscribe to a faith or even believe in life beyond the grave.

 

I feel as if so long as you're respecting whatever area you're photographing in, and whoever may be involved, there's no harm being done. If you're going to take pictures in a graveyard, you should get the permission of at least the caretaker, and if you're going to use actual tombstones I think it would only be appropriate to use your own family members unless you have permission. It's not really a matter of what you personally believe, but it's important to respect what other people find important.

 

What if it is your own grave? Like if you have a plot and stone for yourself when you die, would you want to take photos of your dolls on your grave. I think I would....and thats the only grave I would take photos of my dolls on.

 

The thought of an adorable lifeless doll perched glamorously on my own future hole in the ground is enough to give me nightmares, but if you dig it, I see no reason why you shouldn't.

 

I would take a picture of the grave itself from a distance. Not with a doll because I feel that even though the doll is very beautiful it takes from the beauty of the grave. I would take pictures of dolls in graveyards but not on the grave. It feels strange standing on a grave. I have taken a picture of a doll by a cemetary gate where you could see the stones in the background, though.

And kinda OT, but I spend a lot of time in cemetaries. I think they're lovely. I just go and sit, think, read, write, listen to Cemetary Drive by My Chemical Romance for mood music. It's fun. And I have been taking my dolls more recently. Just no pictures cause I hate my camera.

 

While it is personal choice, I'd personally feel more comfortable with a) using a relative's gravesite, b) using similar sculpture that doesn't belong to an actually grave, c) asking permission from the family of a gravesite (I know some people who would not appreciate someone doing any sort of photography of a family member's gravesite without permission, or would find it disrespectful), or d) going to a really old cemetary (US revolutionary war cemetaries abound in my area, so the likelihood of tracking down a relative is slimmer... you just need to be careful with older headstones that are already tipping over or are damaged from time).

 

Taking pictures of someones grave is ok (to me) as long as the name of the person's grave is never shown. In some ideologies and religions it is believed to picture the dead is to entrap their soul into the photo, and in my beliefs that can happen if the person upon death was not yet ready for death or is not prepared to leave the living. So to be sure not to affect that I personally would make sure the name would never appear and take a picture of the back side or of the statue only (if there is one).

i do have to agree with raven though, the real estate should belong to the living.

 

If you are respectful, and omit anything that makes the site personal (ie the name of the departed, message, etc) then i see no issue. Of course, i am not a religious person by any means, so perhaps i am just insensitive. I, personally, would be honored to have my grave site (should i have one) used in any form of artwork. If your not making fun of it, how can you be doing anything but honoring it?

I really don't think there is anywhere that qualifies as over the line. Maybe atop a dead body or at the scene of a major disaster.

I really, really don't see how a church could be off limits. But like i said, not religious so *shrug*

 

half and half on this because I like artistic morbid photography/sculptures of human parts.

But..

How can a person respectfully use a grave as a prop or background? just no.. Graveyards are definitely off limits for photoshoots. especially for dolls. Very inappropriate and just silly! WHY. Someone give me answer that isn't along the lines of the old century look. They're many other buildings out there that look old century! I know there's a lot of youngsters who are just "trendy" morbid and say its art.

there's a fine line in morbid art and "death is so cool! look how unique i am" art

Highly disrespectful thinking about it, on the grave itself. I don't care if you cleaned up the place, pulling roots away from the grave stone or picking up trash and you think its okay to take pictures of your doll on the grave? The grave isn't in dept to you cause you did something for it. I'm okay with pictures of graves. Capturing the emotion of the grave. But POSING a doll or person on it..is..horrible

Even if its 200 year old. that is a HUMAN BEINGS grave. Memorial of someone who died. all the grief and loving memories of a family are attached to that grave. Not just to the person. That grave is more for the family then the deceased person. I'm not that religious but I care more for the family then the corpse its self. Cause I dont think s/he will care

 

Graves are for the living and a work of art in and of itself. If one can take a picture of the grave itself why is adding a person or doll to the piece stepping over the line?
Some grave yards are utterly lovely. Some aren't.
Some are worth taking pictures of. Some aren't.

Its like churches being these grand religous safe havens and then dragging one into an episode of some stupid TV drama. Where is the respect in that?

I brought that up before and I bring it up again. Not just at you, NietSage but well. You asked why lol so I'll bring it up again more directed.

Do you find it wrong when there is a TV show on filmed in a grave? The names aren't shown but say it's not a prop grave yard. Or you have no idea if it is or isn't. Is that wrong to you? You're still posing people - in a way - with graves. There is no concern for who's grave people are standing before, if the family would be crying cause someone was standing on Uncle JimBob's grave. They're just spitting out the lines they were given while the camera rolls.

Is that any less offensive then someone taking pictures of a doll posed tastefully on a grave with no name showing on the head stone?

I just don't understand how pictures can be offensive in these days when TV or Movie in a similar location isn't.
Less I've missed a butt load of people being offended over the years.

 

Does taking a pic of a doll in the cemetery some how cancel out all the loving memories you mentioned? No, of course not. Does it mean the photographer cares nothing for the family of the deceased? Of course not. Can you capture all the emotion of the setting with a doll in the image? Of course--maybe even more so with a talented photographer.

I can understand on a personal level not wanting to use a grave yard as a setting for a doll shoot, however, when people are being very respectful in the way they are handling their shoot, I have a hard time seeing why they should be condemned for it. Graveyards aren't just for the deceased and their families--they encompass more than that from creating a park like setting, to containing historical information, and being a place where both life and death mingle--something that can be very powerful whether or not you have a loved one buried there. Some people in this thread seem to have the mistaken idea that cemeteries serve one purpose and one purpose only and no other activities happen there, but it's just not true. I think the more realistic and fair way of judging people's actions in cases like these where there isn't really a right or wrong answer, is by how they handle themselves as they go about their business, not whether or not they stand up to someone's arbitrary idea of what is kosher in terms of places like cemeteries. Follow whatever rules there actually are and be sensitive to any of the living that may be there--I don't think you can fairly expect or ask more than that.

 

Graveyards are beautiful landscapes, with very imaginative stones and sculptures. There are many photographers that loves to take pictures of them, myself included.

After much thought, I think I know why it bothers me so much about some people and their photographs with their dolls in such locations. It seems very disrespectful. Instead of thinking about the living relatives about the deceased, they just see a neat tombstone and go "That'll be PERFECT for my doll!!" and then take pictures galore. There is not respectful intent nor any consideration to the living family.

But if they had a respect for the graveyard, as a photographer does when they go to photo it, and uses both the background and the doll to convey a feeling, then, while I still feel uncomfortable about it, can agree why they would do that. After all, some photographers bring models into the graveyards to take pictures. But they're looking more to incoorperate both the scenary and the model into the piece, not just simply plopping someone down and taking a picture because it's "OMG AWESHUM".

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it is an incredible place of spiritual and religious rest and should be respected as such. And while I am not religious, I do respect the dead and their loved ones. Personally, I will take pictures of what marks their place in this world, but never with my doll because I wouldn't be honoring the deceased and the living's feelings.

 

I agree with your second paragraph. But no. I don't think you can capture the same emotion with a doll on the grave.

Then yes. I would find that disrespectful. But who knows. The directer could of asked permission of the family or even use a false headstone even a studio. But this isn't about movies this is about photography and dolls.


I'm going to make a point that I'm talking about on the grave itself. I don't really mind if the headstones were blurred in the background. Proportionate to the doll. I'm looking at this as why it wouldn't work, why it doesn't make sense, and respect.

Something about a doll on a grave is a bit disturbing and I think it ruin's the whole emotion. How can a grave and a doll flow into each other. First off the headstone isnt proportionate. I know most doll photos are of a perspective of the doll's world. The way it'd work is a perspective of reality. As with any Human/Doll photos.

The only scenario I can think of a good photo. would be if the owner of the doll died and the photographer could catch the grief or mourn of the doll. And the doll some how gets neglected and decays on the grave. (that was blunt but you get the picture) Now. if in this stream of photos the tombstone was a strangers. It'd be taboo and disrespectful, but I think it'd be a good photo.



Thanks for the questions!

 

So a director could get permission.
If I got permission is it any less offensive?
What if you couldn't tell if it were real or prop?

I mean we can go around in circles with these questions but I just like to point these things out.

I mean. I can get okay from say... My mother that it's okay for me to take pictures of my doll on my grandmothers grave. My sister could still be offended.


A director could get okay to film in a grave yard. It can still offend someone.

A TV show can dig up a prop (though acurate enough looking for the sake of my example) grave and no one is offended.

I take a picture of a doll with a shovel on a prop (though exactly as acurate looking) grave. Is it then okay for someone to look offended?

Now in both cases the head stones I'm speaking of would be in scale to a human headstone.
Maybe it would even (for the sake of bringing in some personal emotion here) look exactly like your most favored family members grave. Would one offend you more then the other? Would one make you think more or less of that family member?

Personally I wouldn't be bothered. I mean granted I doubt anyone here is gonna picture their doll looking as if they're digging up a grave but I'm casting that aside for this example.

In both cases I wouldn't be bothered at all. I mean, okay the TV grave robbing scene would make me roll my eyes and go "Haven't we seen enough of this?"
The doll? I'd be interested in the pictures. Partly because it's something I've yet to see, may never see and find a very interesting, slightly tempting if disturbing idea.
Disturbing in the sense of grave robbing by a doll seems so much more personal. It's not like the over done things on TV.

Or is that why it's more offensive? With or without permission of course.

Is it more offensive for a doll to do it because things on TV are something most of the world has become more jaded to, we expect so many things like that to happen but in pictures, more so of expenisive and lovely dolls, you don't expect it, it's hardly done nevermind over done so we're not numb to it like we are, say, pretty dolls at a park being lovely and happy looking?

Of course, I find something slightly disturbing and not offending at the same time while some people may find them on the same level. But it's an interesting line of thought non the less.

 

Lets not go off topic comparing TV and Doll photography.

If I got permission is it any less offensive?
This is not about offense. I just think its highly disrespectful. Even if they're no living family members. posing a piece of plastic on a grave is immoral. I find distasteful cause personally it doesn't flow together. Other people might think different.

What if you couldn't tell if it were real or prop?
I wouldn't be offended if it were a prop or not. A prop would be more respectful since there isn't a body of someone or their name and date of death involved.

I take a picture of a doll with a shovel on a prop (though exactly as acurate looking) grave. Is it then okay for someone to look offended?
Its okay for anyone to be offended of anything. I personally wouldnt be offended.

Would one offend you more then the other?
Yes, once again a prop and the real thing are different. But if it's the exact replica with the personal information noted on the prop. That is disrespectful and unnecessary.

Is it more offensive for a doll to do it because things on TV are something most of the world has become more jaded to, we expect so many things like that to happen but in pictures, more so of expenisive and lovely dolls, you don't expect it, it's hardly done nevermind over done so we're not numb to it like we are, say, pretty dolls at a park being lovely and happy looking?

It's not that at all. It just doesn't flow together with me. in that certain location. And would be a distasteful photograph.

If there were pretty dolls in a park and the photos are representing a doll in a doll world. Everything as scaled down as they can be would be more tasteful for me. Now having pretty dolls representing a doll in a doll world and Seeing them sit on a human sized bench wouldn't flow together.
Now if its a photo of representing a doll in reality. It'd be more tasteful to see a DOLL outside playing as a doll, posing as a doll, enjoying/not enjoying, the park/old building/in your house/the beach, as a doll.

going off topic.. It's overall more respectful to pose your doll in locations that don't involve such personal things as a grave. This is my opinion.

Thank you for all your questions though.

 

It can get off topic yeah. It's just the one thing that seems so much more accepted. I mean you can compare pictures of people to dolls. Though I actually see that go more the other way. It's more offensive to see people doing something then dolls in a lot of pictures from my personal experience which is a whole other interesting line of thought.

I'm using offended kinda incorrectly. I do mean offended in the proper sense but I was also going for covering the range of upset, bothered and ect.

The things that people as a whole find wrong differ of course, we're not all exactly the same. I'm using wrong generally but it seems a bit better then offensive the more I think about it. Anyways.

What bothers people can't really be right or wrong of course, if it does it does. Examining why can change peoples minds (not that I'm setting out to do that) or set them more firmly in what they think.

I find it so interesting in photography, film and day to day life that the range of things that is "offensive" differs so much.
Some people think its wrong at all to take pictures in a graveyard but wouldn't be bothered by, say, going and sitting and enjoying the peaceful environment.
Some people are going to be more offended by a doll in photo then a person. Some less.
The why is what interests me so much.

Personally I find myself having issue with few locations but more the subject matter. If you're posing yourself or a doll if it's disrespectful/destructive or just plain lewd in a location that doesn't call for such I think it looks worse then a doll showing grief over a grave to use the graveyard example.
Then again. I get the feeling that most people would agree with me, one is more bothersome then another, that doesn't make them all acceptable but would you rather see someone doing pictures with respect or someone doing pictures of dolls standing in triumph over (real) fallen headstones? I think most of us here would say respect.
I hope so at least O.o lol

 

would you rather see someone doing pictures with respect or someone doing pictures of dolls standing in triumph over (real) fallen headstones?

I would say respect. (obviously) lol.

 

This is interesting because there is a historical graveyard within the university i attend. I can't see how it would be an issue if i chose to take a picture of my doll there. No more so than anyplace else on campus. I would have an issue with taking pictures at random graves in a graveyard that is currently in use. I just figure that once it hits the level of historical graveyard it becomes common property if you treat it with proper respect.

 

Me being me I would love that - but I'm in the entertainment business and I think they day I stop wanting to create things that people want to see and interact with will never come - even after death.

Death is rather a novelty with the people I know - one particular friend had Monty Python's "always look on the bright side of life" played as they carried his coffin out - but I can absolutely understand and respect people who want to take death seriously.

But if you like you can come take photos on mine as well.