Controversial Locations - Where do YOU draw the line?

My whole thing is that when you are dead is it really going to matter what happens to your body? You are dead... and the corpses in cemeteries are long gone and decomposed. Heck, I bet your house or building is built on someone's grave from centuries ago. Everywhere you go you are stepping on a spot someone died at or was buried at or was given birth to. Everything is sacred, not just the places we put fences around.

If you really think about it graves and cemeteries are for the living. It is because we want to have a place or a thing that we can visit to remember someone. Who will visit your grave? The people that knew you. Once their generation dies out who will have known you or visit you? No one. Your grave will be sad and lonely. (Unless you are famous or something.)

And so I do not feel it is disrespectful to take photos of a gravestone or at a cemetery. I feel like it is coming to a spot that someone who loved that person would have come to. It is like connecting to a piece of the past. I love going to cemeteries and especially old ones. I look at the dates people lived and imagine how things smelled... sounded... how they might have been. If I take a photo I feel that in my own way, I am remembering this person even though I didn't know them.

 

In my opinion, it is a bit offensive to whoever's grave you're using. If it's a family member of yours or a good friend, maybe it might be a little better if you pay your respects and such. When i was younger i played hide and seek in a graveyard with my brothers, but i was young so i didn't think anything of it. Now i might re-think running around and hiding behind random peoples gravestones.

 

It's probably been said somewhere in this thread but if you're inclined to use a cemetery as a beautiful peaceful place with nice visual aspect, what about giving the the place itself a line or two of credit: X cemetery in X county is X years old, families of the region have buried here for generations, the x family has a very nice statue, mausoleum, etc. As for guards, why not get permission? Just some suggestions, but Photography is a legitimate art form, even if you are using a doll for a 'prop', so why should anyone be outraged unless it's a matter of privacy on some family's part. (My inner brat says 'like anyone doesn't know someone died and got buried, what privacy?' Ima smack the inner brat and send it to it's room now.) If you're not causing damage, leaving trash and disrupting other visiters why would it be a problem? Or maybe I'm too innocent to think of some of the more modern things. Oh and it's not like couples making out in the graveyard, it's doll photography, right? (only other thing I could suddenly think of. >.>;

 

Photography in a graveyard, to me, isn't particularly disrespectful. I visit them often to take photos, and I feel more like it's a respect of past lives and history (as opposed to "oooh, lookit me I'm goffik). I mean, when I'm long dead, and so is my family, I would almost prefer to have strangers hanging around, snapping photos. In the end, I feel that the dead take what company they can get.
As long as no one is desecrating the grave- peeing on it, digging it up, kicking over the stones, ect- what harm is there, really?

But of course, the subject of death and respect for the dead is always different with every person. So I think overall, taking photos in a graveyard needs to boil down to doing things tactfully and with respect. At the very least, take the time to read the stone you're photographing, and have a moment of thought and thanks for your temporary host.

 

What about locations other then a Graveyard? I read through a couple of pages and it seems like that's the only thing being talked about here.
What about a Wedding? Or a Hospital? Anyone have any other places they think dolls shouldn't be photographed?

Edit: Or how about a Church, Stemming off of Weddings.

 

Hmm... good point. Hospitals, IMO, I wouldn't go have a photoshoot in. People there are ill, and in pain, or recovering from something. Nurses and doctors are very busy, there is a lot going on. I don't think anyone who's in the hospital (be it for work or illness) would really be in the mood to put up with someone wandering around with their doll, snapping photos like life is dandy.
Of course, there would be some exceptions, in my mind. If a doll owner were in the hospital and missed their dolls, it would be such a nice surprise if friends showed with the dolls to say hello. In that kind of situation, photos would be OK. But even then I would think it should stay confined to the person's private room... Hospital photoshoots just don't strike me as practical at all.

Another very tactless thing would be to have a photoshoot at a funeral. I think that speaks for itself.

Weddings? It depends on who's getting married, doesn't it? The bride and groom should give their permission before a doll photoshoot is taken during a wedding~ But if the engaged couple gives the go-ahead, then go for it! (Just...make sure you actually KNOW the people that are getting married.)

 

I think it would depend on the hospital and the amenities it offers. The Mayo Clinic in Rochester has very lovely 'meditation' rooms if you know where to look for them, and if you go in the evening after patients have mostly gone home and NOT during Muslim prayer times, it's pretty empty. Some of them have fountains and beautiful tile mosaics.

Of course, I wouldn't photograph if someone were actually in them/using them, but when they're empty, why not?

(Although now I'm forgetting if they're in Mayo proper or St Mary's...)

But a waiting room full of people? Somewhere where your set-up would be in the way of foot traffic? Areas the general public isn't authorized to visit? Heck no.

 

Hah, I didn't think about the more peaceful areas of hospitals. I've never been to one with a meditation room or chapel, so I fail to think about those types of things. But I agree with DeadLegato, if rooms like that are empty, they might actually be a very good spot for some pictures. So for hospitals, I guess it all depends on the time and place, and to make sure you're not going to be disturbing others.

 

In photography, not just doll photography, it is my opinion -- as a photographer myself -- that there is no offensive place TO take a picture, just offensive ways TO TAKE a picture.

If you go anywhere, in the sake of art, no matter what kind of art, the topic, or the subject may be, than it is fine. Some people may get angered by you as you do it, but they aren't viewing your art while you are doing it, so why should it matter to those random passerby's?

It is only when you do harm with your art that creates an inappropriate atmosphere. If you are hurting the subject, be it person, nature, or manmade object, and it is scarred, or permanently altered, than that is extremely offensive!

Likewise, if you are taking the photo for what you view as "shock-value" or offensive reasons, but you are not harming or hindering or hurting anything or anyone in any way, that's fine, because something somewhere is going to offend someone somewhere at any given time. There is no "but maybe it won't!" It will. It's about audience, and respect for what it is you are doing in the first place. It's all about civility.

Besides, what did photography originate as, many years ago? Capturing something as you see it. Unless it is yours to claim to begin with, you shouldn't alter anything you go out to shoot because that is what creates the "controversial tension" between the audience and artist. I think sometimes people forget that. And I think that's sad.

 

On a persons grave... i think in my opinion is very disrespectful. The reason isnt because you're offending the dead or its illegal or whatever. Its what you're doing. You are treating the life of that dead person as if it was nothing. A grave is a memorial. A memory, and it sorta feels like you're trashing it by doing whatever you want with it. Graves are meant to be there for memory. Its sorta the feeling where if someone was using someone's grave as a footstool.
It doesnt matter if you believe that the deceased's soul is still there or not, its the fact that you are ignoring the purpose of the grave. Its about respecting the deceased, not who you're going to offend.

That being said, public places or whatever are fine (minus places that are places that are to be respected, even if you get permission its still kind of sad and selfish to do something purely for your own entertainment that arent really beneficial at places like those and personally it makes me depressed when i see that people dont really take these kinds of things seriously), BUT stay off of private property if you dont have permission period. Even if the lighting and backdrop is perfect, you need to stay out because 1: its illegal and 2: you're disrespecting ownership of that persons property (and many people should understand that feeling because its like the feeling of grabby hands.)

Also, with people saying stuf like churches and hospitals, to you they might just be a building, but for some people, they hold meaning. It doesnt matter if photography is a legitimate form of art. Its just an excuse to do as you please.

Of course if you're taking a picture of a grave or hospital for like a news article, as long as you show respect its fine. But i've noticed (with many news reporters and paparazzi) that many people taking pictures just care about their shots. They dont care about what they're doing or how they're doing it. As long as you think about what you're doing, if you're not being disrespectful and everythings okay, then go ahead though. Take your shots.

 

Here in France some graveyards are on the list of "sites to visit" in a town, like the "Père Lachaise" in Paris where people go to take pictures of Jim Morrison or Oscar Wilde graves with themselves, or near my home the "Cimetière marin" of Sète about which Paul Valéry wrote a very famous poem.
And when I was a child, I visit a abandonned village where a tomb was destroyed from inside by a giant lilac and I thought "I want to become a lilac aftermy death".
So memorial, yes, but it doesn't mean it has to be cold and lonely, as long as no offense is wanted.
As someone else already said, there is no offensive place TO take a picture, just offensive ways TO TAKE a picture. : I see a big difference between taking a picture when visiting a child with a doll on a hospital bed sleeping or looking ill to please him/her, and going inside a hospital only to take picture with a doll playing mad doctor with a real scalpel in the hand in a real chirurgical box, for exemple.
Or, for another exemple, I took many pictures of my doll in Pompéi, but I don't take any near the dead molds exposed, because make her playing a Roman girl in the ruins seems OK but mimicking the agony of these poor people would have been disrespectful and cruel.
Globally, I see as inappropriate forpictures with dolls the same sites and situations than for pictures with people acting or playing.

 

My opinion..(which has most likely already been stated)

Those people are dead..They're not here to say whether or not they think it's wrong. In fact, they honestly have NO idea if they even HAVE a headstone.

Your body isn't sacred..It's just a shell. Those bodies under that headstone are probably not even there anymore. It's probably dust and bugs. :/

 

Totally agree. Well said. ^_^

 

I know this debate has gone backwards and forwards, but I thought I would through in my opinion! I took some photographs in a churchyard a little while ago, and I have to admit that I didn't feel that I was being disrespectful, but I did wonder what other people might think if they saw me. I took my photos in front of the closed church door because the grain of the wood was beautiful, and I did it at a time of the day when I knew not many other people would be around. Whilst I didn't feel that I was doing anything disrespectful, I did worry if other people would think that it was inappropriate, but the graves by the door were very old and I wasn't using them in any way, although I wouldn't have had any issues myself in using them as a setting as they were so old.

I'm always very conscious of what other people might think if they come across me taking photos of my dolls, so I always try and see things from the point of view of others.

 

Long as the doll isnt being hurt or is in restricted areas I think its fine. If it was my grave i would actually find it amusing....in fact i am going to have a little stone bench commissioned strictly for dolly use in front of my headstone. I am going to have it designated as a dolly photography zone. I mean come on, im dead! I need something to cheer me up. A nice guy to come along and clean off my grave would be great but i would take anything really. As for other locations of questionable merit, again, as long as the dolly is ok and nothing is being hurt, why not?

 

I think using a cemetery, or a church or chapel, as a backdrop is a perfectly fine thing to do.

As far as using actual headstones for a prop, however...well, I think it depends on the headstone. If it's a cemetery like, say, the one I like to visit in Salem, MA - where all of the people buried there were buried before 1900 - that, to me, has just become a park. I wouldn't stomp all over the graves, but at that point, it's highly unlikely anyone is there to mourn their relatives and it becomes much more "public property".

I would never, however, use a grave that is either a) new, b) recently visited or c) in a high-traffic area of a cemetery. People who are there to mourn their loved ones probably would find it offensive. I think I would be put out if I saw someone walking all over my grandfather's grave, propping a doll up on his headstone - regardless of how "careful" they were being. But if they asked, I might have a different opinion.

Honestly, this seems like something you just really have to use your judgement on.

 

I remember visiting my grandmother grave with my family years ago. We place a ton of flowers on the grave and took pictures. Saying that it's inappropriate to take picture of doll on graves, sound like saying we shouldn't place flowers on the grave anymore One of my uncle even Sat on the grave then prayer to it and the elder of the family didn't object. I know sitting on graves can be deem as "inappropriate" but my uncles did that in a respectful matter, therefore, it was alright, even through the eyes of my strict-Strict great grandparents.

I guess this why, to me, taking picture of dolls on the grave is fine as long as the dolls/photographer are not doing anything disrespectful to the grave. Personally, I would bow and pay my respect to the grave afterward to show my appreciation to it's owner. =)

 

I'm ok with hospitals, but unless you either work in them, or are a patient, I'm not sure if you can get away with it; it depends on the security there. I suppose, if the hospital had a big outside/garden area, they'd be ok with it; however, if you're trying to take a picture elsewhere outside, you might be in the way, or get asked to leave.

I'm not particularly fond about having a doll in a wedding. Unless you have something planned where your dolls are a special centerpiece, or supposed to be showed off, I wouldn't want to take my doll to them. I've heard stories where everything went fine, everyone loved them, and no one got carried away; however this doesn't mean that this will be the outcome if you take your dolls. If you are supposed to bring your dolls, then you will most likely have people to monitor them to make sure nothing happens. If not - and I was a guest - I would at least ask the bride and groom if it was OK (prior to the day of the wedding). Maybe they know that they've invited a couple of people who can be quite destructive when drunk, and might advise you not to go ahead with it? If I brought my doll to a wedding, without telling people I was bringing them, I take a big risk. I wouldn't feel right asking the people I was sitting with to watch them, and I would be super paranoid regardless.

I had said I was against churches, but there are a lot of Churches that are open to the public - and those people are going to be taking a lot of photos! Of course, if there are roped off sections, you should be respectful and not try to cross those boundaries because you don't know why they're sectioned off.

I wouldn't feel comfortable doing some kind of religious-based scene (like a doll-sized church service) because it might make others think you're being disrespectful - but if you were friends with a local pastor/priest, and he knew about your dolls, I suppose you could ask them if it was OK. If so, go ahead; if not, be respectful of his decision.

 

I couldn't agree more. Interesting topic. I think a lot of people are fueled by their religious upbringings and beliefs. I'm not Christian and in my religion we don't bring flowers to graves. It's actually not appropriate to do so (I'm not religious and I don't remember why but it has something to do with them dying). We leave stones as a marker that we were there. If I'm visiting someone's grave who is Christian I leave a stone. I will say this, if you ever see stones sitting on a headstone, please don't remove them! You aren't caring for the person's headstone by doing so!

That said, I don't think it's inappropriate to take photos of dolls or photos in general in a cemetery. I think it would be incredibly inappropriate if there was a funeral going on but otherwise, I just don't really see the issue. I actually feel that by taking photos of a gravestone, even a stranger's stone, and even if I were to take my doll there and take photos, I'm actually remembering them. I may not have known them but my act of consciously photographing their gravestone, looking at their name and the dates on it, to me, is remembering someone. I actually think it's kind of cool (cool's the wrong word I think) but interesting to think that we can actually think about someone we never knew, imagine their life, etc. because we've viewed their stone or a photo of it. So as long as your doll isn't doing something weird like having sex or posed like they're going to the bathroom or something, I don't see the issue at all.

Maybe the biggest issue here is not so much the photographer but the viewer. When I see a photo of a tombstone, I look at it, I read the text on it, I think about the person who it stands in memory for but maybe others are viewing differently. It never crossed my mind that a photograph like that would be anything other than a memorial (or perhaps something that looks goth). My thoughts certainly wouldn't be about disrespect just because it's a doll or even if there's no doll in the photo. This makes me think about one of my grad classes. Is the artist's intentions what's important or how the viewer perceives the art? There's no real right or wrong answer there just a lot of fun debate.

I don't think it would be all that appropriate to go INTO a hospital and start taking pictures if you are doing it where there are other people who may be sick or dying or in pain. You want to be careful there I suppose. Now if you're in the hospital or visiting someone and you have your doll and want to, cool. But I'd be careful about photographing other people (strangers) within the hospital and any rights you have on the street to photograph strangers aren't going to hold inside the hospital, as far as I know.

Maybe it's just because I have a severe phobia of hospitals and even typing about it now makes me feel like I can't breathe but I can't imagine why anyone would want to go into a hospital if they didn't have to let alone going inside just to take pictures of their doll.

 

Svgjen, I was raised Jewish as well, and understand and respect the stones on the graves or memorials. I do think it is more fitting. Flowers and other tokens get stolen or destroyed, and yes, flowers rot and die.
Anyway.

I think it is disrespectful to photograph a doll directly on a headstone. And while the person is no longer line, and if you believe in a soul or spirit, you know they're not just hanging around their burial site. It's mostly disrespectful to the living; the family and friends of the deceased.

Think of it this way: we've all seen a sad site on the side of the road: a cross surrounded by flowers, teddy bears, relics, photos, etc. The spot where someone lost their life in a car accident.
Would the thought ever cross your mind to pull over and pose for photos with this site? If you were a friend or family member, or even documenting drunk driving or roadside memorials, then photographing the memorial without disturbing so much as a leaf or twig would be fine and respectful. But if you grabbed your friend and posed for a picture with it, then you are exceedingly disrespectful and rude. And it would be the same if you took out your doll and posed the doll with this memorial.
You're using someone's final resting place as a novelty.

Now, think of how you'd feel if it were your family or friend's gravesite or memorial and you came upon it and saw some teenagers sitting on the headstone or posing for silly pictures with the memorial to your dead loved one. You would not like it.

If you find it hard thinking of a headstone as marking someone's death being disrespectful, then ponder this: It's someone's property. Someone paid for it. Someone paid for the very plot you're standing on to view the headstone. You wouldn't open someone's gate to their front yard and go inside, or pose your doll on a stranger's car to take photos without permission