Controversial Locations - Where do YOU draw the line?

my mom wants to be burned with a few of her barbies and turned into a daimond. lol it works. then you don't have to worry about anyone disrespecting your grave by taking a picture of there doll next to it. a solution, has been found.

 

Brightfires, having seen your photography at Victorian cemeteries, I think most people here aren't referring to what you do. The draping dolls over tombstones for cheap puns and photographing on recent burial sites are what mostly seems to be the problem here.

The thing about open debates and discussions is that you get to add to it instead of just commenting on what it lacks.

Good points. I think busy parks are fine. A doll meet-up or photoshoot in a park is part of spending time with friends. It's no different from a bunch of friends going to a park for an all-day picnic or a lone person reading on a bench. It's open for public use and for most parks, the space is there on a first come first serve basis.

I don't think a mall or restaurant is a great place to bring your dolls, but I don't think it's an inappropriate place either. If it's one or two people with their dolls and they've no problems with security, I don't think there's anything inappropriate. But if it's a meet where you're cluttering up the place and making a scene, I don't think that's good. Like most things, once a person becomes inconsiderate to others and forget that the location does not belong solely to them, then it's a problem.

I hear of people bringing their dolls to universities and schools and I think that's only alright if the lecturers or teachers agree with it. Maybe for art class or when there's free time. I've no idea how it works elsewhere, but it used to be that if it'll distract from the class or lecture, then it's not appropriate for the classroom or lecture theatre. Just like how we shouldn't bring our PSP and DS in for a game or two while the lecturer is talking up front, we probably shouldn't be fooling around with our dolls too.

 

Now that I think about it when I was in Poland recently I went to a graveyard where there were some Gypsy graves, and I recall that the Gypsy tradition calls for feasting at the grave of the deceased. In their culture, they share their joy with the loved one by drinking and eating 'with' them by holding a kind of picnic. So in that sense you can justify sharing your pictures and joy with the deceased when you make them take part of your photoshoots.

Of course, there is a flip since in other cultures that can be seen as disrespectful. What one person may seem as fine, someone else may see as not so okay. I mean, when we usually go to older graveyards (such as the one in Krakow I went to) it was perfectly fine to take pictures at the graves of famous national heros and writers, so long as it was in a respectable fashion. Yet in relation to newer cemeteries, it's usually not accepted to stand and pose at graves, since people can get angry. Like I said, each culture is different, and taking pictures at a 'famous' grave may be seen as ok, but 'normal' graves not alright. This is something usually accepted (like running up to a actor and taking pictures with him, while you would most likely warrant a black eye for running at random people). Whatever deems it ok to take pictures in certain places, it's a societal thing.

So anyway, I think it's alright if you do it respectfully, and are aware of the cultural views of doing something like that. And usually, not including the name of the tombstone, for instance, is a good idea. It's not that if you are or are not religious- it's the manner you behave, and if you are respectful. The dead AND the living deserve respect.

For instance, if you go into a sacred place- whether it be in Italy, Japan, or India, you should be aware of what is and is not appropriate. What you may see as ok if you do respectfully may NOT be seen as ok by the people of that country.

If you can take pictures that are suitable in some places (like including gorgeous Church architecture in a shoot that's appropriate and done tastefully (although tasteful can be debated but that's beside the point at the moment)) then I say go for it. Just respect the wishes of the living for the dead (like in the cemetery, or religious places). If it's deemed ok, then go for it. You have to use your head as to what is appropriate and what is not appropriate at the time- and the place!

EDIT:

Well said.

 

I have taken pictures of my dolls in a cemetery. I used an old one, where the freshest graves were before the fifties. I did not use any names, only the backs of the tombstones, and one had a lovely inscription that I really wanted a picture of.

I said a prayer of thanks before leaving, because that's just how I am. I don't believe that taking photos of dolls in places like that is wrong at all, as long as you're tasteful and respectful to the living as well as the dead.

 

I don't think I would personally mind if someone someday decided to use my gravestone in a photo shoot. If anything, that says that I would have a cool gravestone and it would compliment whoever chose it. I am not a religious person, but I don't see how this would be considered disrespectful.

I do however think that it could be considered very unsympathetic towards those who have suffered the loss of a friend or family member. If I went to visit a grave of someone I loved and found someone playing with it, I might get angry feeling that this person is making light of my pain and has no common curtsey. Therefore, although I wouldnt mind it if it was my own grave, I would still steer clear of doing photo shoots there. If you want a picture of your doll on a grave make sure it belongs someone from your own family.

 

I didn't realise that...my family sometimes do that with loveones resting places too. But, it is the loved ones of the deceased, not some dollies and their owners with a camera; there lies the difference.

 

It all depends on your feelings about graveyards, the dead, etc. I agree that they are places for remembrance, but I don't think that everything involving the deceased must be somber or mournful either. I don't consider graveyards places of amusement (not sure where you got that), but I do think they are places of interest--whether it's interesting statuary or reading old tombstones to wonder about the lives of some of the folks that lived so long ago. Or is that also inappropriate? Who decides?

People have a fascination with graveyards beyond visiting deceased relatives because death and what comes after is the big mystery--it's not about a lack of respect for the deceased or trivializing anything, it's being in a place where two different worlds meet and finding beauty in it and wanting to capture it in a photographic work.

No one is talking about defiling graves, interrupting funerals, bothering other visitors, getting in the way, or being obnoxious. While I understand your feelings, I think you are assuming a lot about people's motivations for choosing a graveyard as a photoshoot location.

 

Actually, from the opinions expressed so far, it sounds like they ARE exactly referring to what Brightfires does. I read it from the beginning, and it does smell pretty witchhunty in here. People are not only objecting to the cheap-laughs pictures, but also the artistically-complete ones. Within the past 4 pages, the mere choice of a graveyard as a photographic venue has been called Tacky, Cliched, Attention-Whoredom, and Disrespectful.

One might venture the same list of judgments upon those who photograph dolls next to nonconsenting live animals. But no Angry Villager Threads get created for those.

[exits stage left, barely escaping large puff of brimstone]

 

I think it depends on what the purpose is--if it's a photoshoot where the area was chosen for mood and aesthetic purposes and less for classic storytelling, having everything in scale is less of an issue. In that instance, I think most likely the old monuments in the cemetery itself are actually going to look nicer (unless someone really excels at prop building).

However, for a photostory with a graveyard scene, I would rather make props and ensure that everything is as correct in terms of scale as possible--it just depends on the situation.

The problem is, like most things in life (especially when it comes to art) it is impossible not to offend someone over something. It's the artists call as to what they feel comfortable with. The big issue for me is not behaving in a rude fashion around other visitors (which is pretty much sure to offend and rightfully so). I can't control everyone's reactions to subject matter which is why at some point I have to let it go and do what I want to do, but I can control my own behavior so that I am not a huge distraction while I'm out doing my thing (which being shy, I prefer anyway).

I haven't actually taken pics in a cemetery...yet. A friend and I scouted out the one right near me because it has some really interesting monuments. When we were there, I don't think we even saw a single person around.

 

lol I love you comments Jennynemesis, you always make me chuckle in the right places.

To be honest when I first saw dolls by gravestones a couple of years ago I did think it was disrespectful. I can't imagine the family being too happy if they popped along to put some flowers on aunt Mabel's grave and see some dollies lounging all over it, having a photo session (unless it's your own aunt Mabel)
Now, I've seen it so many times I hardly think about it at all. I guess I've just become used to seeing gothic dolls near headstone. It's the perfect setting for that type of doll.
I wouldn't mind if someone put dollys on my grave but I'm biased. I've never done it and never will do it but it was the same with the "I'm sick of seeing dolls rolling around in their owners underwear!!" thread. (Never done it, never would do that either.) Don't like it? Go look at dolls you do like, the forum is a big place.

 

In reference to the amusement, most people choose photography as their hobby for fun. They enjoy going out, posing their dolls, taking pictures, basically, having fun. There is nothing wrong with this. But it is for your own amusement you're doing it.
No, graveyards don't have to be a place of mourning, but the fact is that for many people, cemeteries are a somber and mournful place that allows them to settle with their grief. The primary purpose of the graveyard is for the dead and their families, either to mourn, respect and/or to celebrate the life of the individual who has passed on.
I'm not saying that it's wrong for people to go to graveyards. For some, their own fascination with death, as you put it, could drive them there to explore and wonder. And that's fine if done respectfully.
The issue I'm taking with it stems from this: When someone is placing there doll on the tombstone or marker of one of my loved ones or is showing off the tombstone or marker in the background, it's disrespectful to me. I would never want to see someone near my sister's grave taking pictures and using her tombstone as prop or something pretty in the background. It degrades her tombstone from a symbol of love and remembrance to just a prop. It's not how she deserves to be honored.
In the end, motivations for doing the action are irrelevant. It's the action itself that puts me off. But in the end, it's just my opinion. I wouldn't do it because I wouldn't want if done my sister.

 

Mmmm....I really disagree with this assessment of the thread and the concerns some folks feel in regards to photographing-for-fun in cemetaries and graveyards.

Not seeing any sort of witchhuntery going on either, for that matter.

I think it's totally understandable that many, many people feel that it's disrespectful practice to bring a doll to a graveyard, photograph it dressed to the nines in a Lucifer outfit, waving from atop a headstone of a deceased person that they don't know - whether or not that person left a hundred years ago or last week. Yes, graveyards are a sort of public place - I say "sort of" because they are in public, most allow "visitors", but the remains of dead human beings reside there. I don't think it's a ginormous stretch of the imagination that living human beings have strong feelings about such places. Native American Indians have quite successfully legally retained or re-obtained lands that are known burial sites - these places are THAT sacred - spiritually, culturally and legally.

If someone is taking their doll to a graveyard which is extremely picturesque and taking lovely non-cemetary type shots with interesting backgrounds, this conversation really doesn't apply to them - the thread seems to be more about folks who vamp out in local cemetaries and post photos of their dolls doing the same.

I think one needs to put into perspective why this practice feels disrespectful to others. Incredibly arty and deeply moving photographic work has been done in nursing homes and on oncology wards....but it doesn't follow that those same photos would be equally moving if there was an abjd in the shot.

 

The Hunterian Collection. That would be pretty controversial. Or the Mutter Museum. La Specola. Or maybe the Fragonard Museum or Bodyworlds. With the waxes or the specimens in their cases and jars. Perhaps in the old theatre at Padua or in Leiden.

(I wouldn't be troubled myself, as I enjoy these collections, but I expect it would be rather controversial generally).

 

Honestly, graveyards are public and should be allowed to be used as such. As a tax payer, I deserve the right to use them so long as I do not damage them like with any other public area. I tend to believe that I myself wouldn't use one in my pictures, but I am mortified of the dead. I couldn't even if I wanted to. It's just unsettling to me to be around dead bodies.

As for where I find things to be inappropriate, I think anything that labels specifically "no pictures" or "Please no photography" would be my only places. If it is stated not to, I think it should be respected. Otherwise it’s free game.

 

Agreed I don't see much of a witch hunt going on, just mostly a little bit of sulking.

 

Well, yes, it is enjoyable to take doll photos--I guess I was taking it like this: That "for amusement" = goofy, barrel of laughs, very little thought put into it rather than taking it more seriously as an artistic undertaking, if that makes sense.

I think this is where we differ--for myself, intention is very important, and it makes a big difference in how I'm likely to react to something.

 

Oh, good grief. Do you realize that plots have to be paid for???? By the deceased or family of? A cemetary might be publically or municipally owned...but there are restrictions of use and after that there are common courtesies which should be extended to a place where people ARE BURIED!

 

I agree. Where as my previous statement regarded their culture- if THEY did it, or if we did it and belonged to that culture, that would be justified. Sharing what they love in that culture brings the deceased into the lives of their living family! But if someone did that to their graves, I know they would be offended since that isn't family involvement.

That's just one example of course. I can't apply that on a global scale since someone in another country may say that in fact being around graves and interacting at a graveyard, through dolls or what else have you, may in fact be a beautiful thing (or in reverse, a bad thing).

Quite an interesting topic.

** that said, I don't think ANY culture allows mistreatment of graves and stating you have a right because it's part of the country/government. :/ Nobody has a RIGHT to walk around snapping pictures/sitting on graves/ and what else because they pay TAXES. That train of thought is insulting. Have some respect. There may be different beliefs as to what is appropriate, but come on...

 

I think I'm going to leave this debate. For artistic reasons I photograph ancient tombstones and tend the forgotten graves in return for photographing them, most of the time the ABJD in my bag doesn't come out, and I don't really want to keep reading the same 'it's bad, it's disrespectful, it's this, it's that' responses, because as I see it, they really don't apply to me. The graves I photograph are hundreds of years old, if any living relatives care enough to be offended that I've photographed their ancestor's awesome memorial stone...where were they when it was overgrown with weeds? Weeds that I cleared away? Abandoned graves are fair game, IMO, particularly if you take the time to restore them afterwards.

 

taking pictures IN a cemetary; ok.
taking pictures ON a grave; not ok.

cemeteries can often be very beautiful places, and they're meant to be admired in a way.
i see nothing wrong with taking pictures on benches, patches of grass, etc. if they were being respectful to the cemetery.

~EDIT~
i also draw the line at dead animals
i don't care how "respectful" you say you're being,
would you want someone taking pictures with YOUR dead body?