Controversial Locations - Where do YOU draw the line?

I've been following the thread from page 1 as well and I don't see anything witchhunty. I don't hear any cries for, "Those who take pictures in any cemeteries SHOULD BE HUNTED DOWN AND SHOT" or on a less dramatic scale, any call for it to be banned or stopped. As far as I know, calling something tacky, cliched, attention-whorish and disrespectful is still not a witch hunt.

Putting that aside, most of the people who dislike it have been using statements like, "If I saw someone dancing on my who-and-who's grave" or "doll boinking" or "dolls draped on gravestones" or "dolls on recent graves", which is again, different from Brightfires' walking around with dolls in an old Victorian cemetery and taking pictures of them with monuments and the naturally picturesque scenery, etc.

I guess I don't see it as a witch hunt because people are expressing their dislike over things and are explaining their reasons for it. Debates and discussions are ongoing. It hasn't yet descended into madness and refusal to listen to logic and demands that people should be punished for being bad, bad cemetery-doll-bringers. Not yet anyway, heh.

 

I must be reading this thread in a completely different state than others - no where am I seeing anyone say that it's disrespectful to take photographs of graveyards, especially older cemetaries that are undeniably beautiful. I still wear my "FOHC" (friends of Highgate Cemetary) pin faithfully and proudly - it doesn't necessarily follow that because one is taking photographs in a cemetary one is disrespecting the sleeping dead!

 

I actually really love cemeteries. I find them peaceful and generally nice places to spend time in to just relax and think, if that makes any sense, but then I'm one of those freaky goth/punk types, so maybe my views aren't...uhm...normal (whatever that is). I just did a photoshoot of two of my guys in a local historical burying ground because it's a place I really love and wanted to share photos of, and because I wanted pictures of my boys at the grave of my favourite author. I find absolutely nothing wrong with doing shoots in a cemetery as long as you're not knocking over stones or climbing all over them just for a decent shot. Some amount of respect is called for, no matter how old the cemetery is and, indeed I think that more care should be taken in older cemeteries if for no other reason than to preserve the graves. Honestly, I figure that so long as I'm not knocking over a headstone or digging up a grave (or taking pictures right next to a funeral), I'm not doing too much harm. Cemeteries are there for the living as much for the dead, and I don't feel like I'm being disrespectful simply because I'm taking pictures in one. If I felt like that about taking pictures of my dolls, I'd probably have to feel that way any time I saw a photo of a graveyard, whether or not it involved a doll. In general, when I visit cemeteries I am very mindful of the fact that there are real people really buried there, so I don't feel particularly bad about taking a photo of a pretty headstone or monument with my doll sitting or leaning against it so long as I'm not trampling all over it when I do. As for finding someone taking a picture of their doll on the grave of my loved one, I wouldn't be offended, unless they were doing a doll porn shoot on it. Then I might be a bit weirded out, but otherwise, I wouldn't really be bothered by it. That's just the kind of person I am, though. I'm a very live and let sort of person, so things that get other people all up in arms don't usually bother me that much. also, if it is okay to take photos of the headstones and statues themselves and to take rubbings of them, why is it NOT okay to take a picture of a doll, say, standing next a headstone or statue? Also something to think about is that Victorians sometimes had picnics in cemeteries. I don't see photoshoots in cemeteries as any more or less disrespectful than having lunch in them.

I have no problem with shoots in churches, either. Well...unless you're pouring fake blood across an altar or something, which is less for the OMG blasphemous than the WTF are you doing? You're gonna ruin it and it's not your property to do something like that with. Maybe I can't understand some of the reasons for being upset about cemetery/church photos because I've never been very religious, but it isn't something I'd be likely to be offended by. Now, if someone had their doll "nailed" to a cross or something in a church, purely for percieved shock value, my likely reaction would be: "Oh, someone wants to be controversial. *yawn* Nice try. Next!"
I have to make sure to say, though, that I do understand the potential offence in taking photos of dolls on recent graves. That could be bothersome to some people and I understand how it could be seen as disrespectful. Personally, I have absolutely no interest in recent graves (we're generally really boring in choosing headstones and monuments now), so hopefully my photos aren't too offensive to anyone.

Honestly, there aren't really many places I can think of that would be really inappropriate, except maybe in a funeral parlor next to a body or at an actual burial. Those are about the only places I'd be really uncomfortable with taking photos, purely because that I feel would be disrespectful, even if it were a member of my own family. Maybe especially then. Any places that could be dangerous for me or my dolls is also off limits, but I think that probably goes for everyone. What comes to mind for me when I think of inappropriate places are classrooms and workplaces, which just don't seem like good places to bring dolls for photoshoots. I don't know that I'd like it if someone brought their doll out in the middle of a classroom or office/jobsite and started snapping photos, unless there was good reason for it. Pretty much any public place is, to me, fair game, though.

 

I really think it just depends on how you use the setting. It's not like it's hurting anybody if you take pictures in a graveyard, as long as you respect the families of the deceased. I think taking pictures of a bjd on top of a gravestone would be unacceptable in my personal opinion, unless it was the grave of someone I knew. But I don't see a problem with including one in a picture. Maybe people could blur out the names on the gravestones if it would show respect to the family. I can understand where this idea of offending people comes from though. I don't exactly think you could manage to take pictures of a bjd in a mosque for example. I'm sure it wouldn't even be allowed. There are just some places/situations where you just shouldn't take pictures of a bjd. I'm sure I wouldn't even attempt to photograph a setting such as an operating room or a morgue, or even a fancy restaurant. I personally just don't think those types of settings would be appropriate. But I figure that if it's for artistic purposes and you are being respectful of the feelings of any others involved, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

 

Here are but a few quotes gleaned from this very debate

 

...it's a discussion about limits. People are stating what their limits are and why. No one is telling anyone else that they have to agree with their limits or even respect them. No one is singling out specific photographers within the thread. I don't see it being witch-hunty at all.

And sorry, I do feel that there are things that are inappropriate or disrespectful.... and sometimes just wanting to do something isn't enough of a reason to do it if it could potentially hurt other people. Maybe I worry too much, maybe I am a super softie, maybe I am just not hardcore enough to cut it as an artist. Who knows? But for me, I wouldn't risk hurting someone so I could indulge in a little bit of recreational photography. But again, what I think is appropriate or disrespectful really has no bearing on other people... and I am personally more likely to just click the "back" button then ever call anyone out.

 

I think what Zagzagael and the others are saying is that having a differing opinion does not constitute a witchhunt...

Personally, I'm not spiritual and a graveyard is just another place. Taking photos there is a little too übergothy for my taste... but I also live in Seattle, where there is a huge goth scene, and stuff like that is really common. I can completely understand how it could be seen as more shocking or offensive in more conservative parts of the country.

If you're going to take photos in a controversial location, that is your artistic decision, but that decision comes with the risk of offending people. Just like how even *extremely* artistic nudity can offend people, or use of real fur, or whichever other controversial subject matter you can think of.

 

I adore graveyards, a lot. In high school, there was a nice one right across the street from school, and during exam week we had tons of time to waste between exams, we would go over there, take pictures, walk around, and enjoy ourselves. I'll admit, some of my friends weren't as respectful as I was, but they never did any damage/graffiti/vandalism, and kids will be kids. It was a nice way to escape the rest of our class (who were rude and mean because we were "goth" sometimes) and enjoy the weather.

And now that I have dolls, I think any outdoor area is a good place for a shoot. Loagaeth & I have done two shoots in graveyards, and I disagree w/ the earlier statement about being out of scale. There was a Jewish graveyard here in Cincinnati that the monuments seemed in perfect scale with our dolls. We tried to avoid lettering/names, but sometimes the shot wouldn't work w/out it. I have to tell you how much respect I have for the money & love people put into picking their gravemarkers/monuments/mausoleums, I think they are very much works of art. But I wouldn't take my dolls to a newer/modern graveyard, those are too fresh and offer no real artistic opportunity. And as I live in a tiny apartment with little room for doing the paint work on my dolls, I certainly don't have the room to make my own fake gravestones. Besides, I believe the character that the statues and things in real graveyards far beats any work i can do. Especially to those of us not artistically gifted enough to make something that realistic. Like those of us that can't do our own face ups/body blushing, or can't draw a straight line to save our lives? Or barely understand shading/textures and blending paints to make gravestone colors? Or what if we just like the statues? How am I supposed to recreate an entire mausoleum with styrofoam? And I don't actually want the things to be "in scale." I love photographing my dolls in the real world, as DOLLS. Or how about those of us that have to scrimp and save just to buy our doll & clothes? And still pay the bills around at home? I'm not saying I'm every one of those instances, but to the girl who brought up making your own gravestones, you were awful condescending, assuming everyone in this hobby has the abilities and spare time/money to do those things. (Even if the supposed cost is low.)

People are getting all up in arms about these shoots, but a doll is just an object, much like a gravestone, or flowers, or wreathes that might be placed upon a stone. We give our dolls meaning, just like we give grave sites and flowers meaning. My dolls, while I often speak as if they are living beings, are just objects to personify my original characters, and when I put them on a grave site/marker/monument, it is because I believe my doll is a very important item, with lots of meaning. And that I am honoring the dead by choosing their site to help me create my doll in my head more. I am always respectful, but honestly, most of the choices in my life have been controversial and I've done things to offend probably 60% of people everywhere. But that is none of their business. I don't make my dolls have erotic photo shoots, which I find FAR more offensive than graveyard shoots. And how about the high number of shoots w/ SD sized dolls making out w/ MSD? Owners can say that they're older, just look younger, but if you were to show those pictures to someone outside the hobby w/ no context, they would think it was wrong! By its nature, this hobby is slightly controversial. For crying out loud, the dolls are anatomically correct. And that is for, guess what, ARTS SAKE! These dolls are supposed to be realistic, so why can they not be shot in a realistic/real place? Why must everything be props & studios? I'm not about to prance up to some fresh grave or one that people might still be coming to mourn at, that's disrespectful whatever you're doing, photos, cleaning, dolls, whatever. People bring their dogs to graveyards and let them go to the bathroom. I'd be far more offended by that. The bodies are being reclaimed by the earth, much like any animal that dies in a public park gets decomposed, but no one gets offended when I walk around the woods and take pictures there. There is far more dead animals/insects/etc there than a graveyard, and they all lead lives with meaning and energy and memories. But the graveyards we've used are largely unvisited and forgotten. Makes them good for dolls because there's no one to give us strange looks for being adults with dolls, and we can shoot undisturbed.

Hell, the last photo shoot we did, the keeper there drove by and assumed we were doing a school project. When we told him it was just for fun, he smiled and just suggested I move my car off the main driveway, then told us to have fun and drove off.

 

I've always been of the opinion that graveyards should be walked through and appreciated for what they are--memorials to those who have died. I have always considered it very much a respectful thing to walk among Victorian graves, reading the names on them, the ages of birth and death, and imagining perhaps what the person had been like, sparing a bit of thought for someone long dead. I know that I would be happy to have someone reading my tombstone a hundred years from now, wondering what sort of person I was, and if that person happened to want to take a respectful photo of a doll standing near--or even on--my grave, I would be fine with that. Gravestones are memorials placed by those left behind to remind the world that someone they loved lies there. While recent graves usually have many living relatives who come to honour the memory of that loved one, older graves often have no one other than those who appreciate both the beauty and intention of the memorial stones in question--not to be cold records of internment, but artistic expressions of love lost.
So yes, I have photographed my dolls in a Victorian cemetary, leaning against or on gravestones--but it was not at all disrespectful in my eyes, as I always try to pose my dolls in such situations in respectful or mournful poses.
After all, a memorial does no good if no one looks at it and remembers.

 

It'd be lovely if this thread went on to discuss other public areas, and what public areas may be appropriate for meetups. I'm seeing the graveyard thing as just another useless debate. No one who has posted is changing their minds. And to those who said two hours and $10 for a perfectly good substitute gravestone? I already told you, MOST of us don't have enough creative or artistic talent to get it to look like stone. Believe me, I'm an artist, and I have tried several times and failed miserably. Nothing replaces real stone for me. Besides, Graveyards usually have lovely landscaping, which is why I would be there in the first place. Honestly, the headstones themselves are not all that we like. Like the two poseters above me, I agree that graveyards invoke a special feeling. They shouldn't be only for people who know others buried there. Any graveyard I walk through I feel a sense of respect for those who have gone before me, and a feleing of peace toward death. I'd like my doll to be there too, because he is not just an object, but an extension of myself, and most of his legacy lies in the past, too.

 

AMEN! I agree with and support this statement wholeheartedly!

 

Oh, now that you say it... I've never taken pics in a graveyard, but I'll think twice when i'll think about doing that. I never really thought about that, and now that you say it, it'S kinda real. I wouldn't want someone taking pictures on my grave. I would haunt them! nyarknyrak...
I think most of others places are ok, thought. They might be inappropriate for us, like in a place with children or in another public place that you can damage your doll(s).

 

I don't think even some of the best artists would be able to recreate that feeling you get from being in a church or a hospital.... or cemetery. There's just something about those places that have a certain element that can sometimes be captured in photographs. I can understand why people choose to use these settings.

 

I also agree with this statement. Atmosphere and ambiance lend a LOT to any kind of photo shoot.

 

people only saying grave yards are only for mourning the dead should watch the travel channel more i think.

anyone ever heard of the happy cemetary? where they carve how the dead died into the head stone and paint it all pretty with a little story of how the person died?

i'd personally love to go there and take a picture of my dolls reading the head stones. it'd be rather fun i think. even a few pictures made to look like they are laughing. (atleast my trouble makers laughing. my goodie goodie in shock and sad)

bourdane himself said he felt weird mocking the dead. but it didn't stop the rest of the group reading it out loud and laughing. and by then end he was smiling too and gave a few chuckles.

personally graves are more for the living than the dead. and if your not breaking it or defacing again i see no issue. it's how you look at things. different areas have different veiws, if your locals see it as a park, i'd doubt they'd have an issue. if they see it as private memorial, expect to get called out for it if you're seen there. online posting the pictures, your just screwed. cause it's public to people from all areas. salution: either don't care, or post someplace it don't matter, like photobucket and only link it to people you know would enjoy it.

if you see an issue with it. then don't do it. however don't go in a thread insulting someone, don't pm them insulting them. and i think most would prefer, that you not post saying if you ever saw them doing it you'd give them a ear full or threaten them. you don't want poeple to offend you by taking a picture in a graveyard, but it's ok if you offend someone else by telling them it's tacky or other harsher words. :/

but again i don't worry about offending people, cause you can't get around that. no matter what you do. it's the net, you'll get both, and it's always the ones who don't like it that are the most vocal.

 

Haven't gone through the whole thread, but personally I'd love it if someone took a photo of my grave for artistic purposes. Call me weird, but I'd feel honoured.

That said, I think the cemetery issue really hangs on how you treat the grave, how your photograph is composed, and how old the tombstone is.

Putting dolls on the grave itself I find rather inappropriate and slightly disturbing, considering there's a dead body underneath. But if you are not disturbing the grave, and treating it with respect, then it's fine. Or, as someone above was saying, they tend the old graves in return for photographing them. I think that's a reasonable sign of respect.

The purpose of the photographs also comes into play. If the photo is a baudy, comical one, then using a cemetery as the gag is highly offensive. But if it's a reflective, somber photo, or one with moral or emotional value, then photographing your dolls there, I think, is justified. It really has to do with your attitude.

As for how old the tomb is, I think for the older ones, that are perhaps 100 years old or older, it's not as intrusive as if you were putting your dolls around a fresh one. Obviously this has to do with the deceased's relatives, and their feelings. But photographing an old tomb - it seems a different kind of respect, like you're remembering someone who's been forgotten for so long, as bringing them back into the world. Going back to my first paragraph, I'd love to have someone photograph my grave 100 years after I die!

Anyway, isn't that a bit similar to people going on pilgrimages to Vienna and photographing the tombs of various composers? It seems to me a method of respecting them. Like I said, it all lies in the attitude.

For the record, I'm a dedicated Christian, perhaps what you would call "religious". For me, the body is just a temporary home for the soul, not the whole person. Anything you do after someone's death is not for them, but for yourself. Like someone else said in this thread: cemeteries are, ironically, places for the living, not for the dead.


Whoa, I wrote an essay! O_o

 

I don't believe it's disrespectful to take photographs in a graveyard. My friends and I have been to two different graveyards quite a few times in the past, we always find them peaceful and the older graves are gorgeous. We mainly went there for photographs since, the first time, we were all photography students. I wouldn't mind taking my dolls to go photograph them in a cemetery, I'd love to actually, their gorgeous. And it's not like I would photograph them on someone's new grave, they're not nearly as interesting as the old ones (like from people that died in the 17 and 1800s).

 

Yes, of course. I meant, take photos of cemetaries without dolls as props.

 

I have been wondering about this for a long time and am very happy someone posted this thread, thank you lyfeisgood.

For myself, I become very frustrated and sometimes even upset when I see people posing on top of tombstones, some or most of them wearing obsene graphic/gothic clothing. I think it tasteless and reflects disrespect on that person. I am very confused as to why I don't feel that way towards the many threads posted in the gallery of dolls on top of tombstones. Would anyone like to try and explain this to me or has anyone else felt this way? Graveyards can be absolutely lovely places for scenery and I don't mind human or bjd pictures when they're just standing in the graveyard or on the benches provided for the public.

On a spiritual level...if I were dead lets say, lol, I wouldn't mind in the slightest if I looked down...or up to see someone placing bjds on my tombstone and taking pictures; infact I would be happy that someone would be visiting my grave. Now, if it was some punk-ass wannabe goth kid hoping up on my tombstone and displaying rude gestures and what-not it would be a totally different story...either thunder bolts would fly or the flames of hell would rise up I don't know which, lol.

I guess it's all about the way you take the picture. With bjds in graveyards, for me, it gives me a sense of peacefulness and serenity.

I really want someone to spark up a different controversial place for bjd photos. What about hospitals, schools, libraries, museums? I don't know I'm just throwing some out there. I wonder if designated voting places would be controversial...

 

I just loled at the mental image that brought on! Could you imagine some looney going, "Wait! Don't lower grampa's casket! I need to get some shots of my doll on it! Could you move the awning a smidge left? It's casting a horrible shadow on my doll's nose."



I'd be more horrified if someone tried posing their doll with the Mona Lisa or Venus de Milo. To me art is far more sacred than someplace a casket is lowered at the end of the funeral. I think I've only visited 2 relatives gravesites after they passed. I'm certainly not worried about what people are doing to their headstones, as long as they aren't being vandalized. I don't care if someone takes pix of any of my relatives plots. I'm sure my relatives don't mind either, .