Counter culture v. Mainstream

Well if you look at the freedom of expression that someone give to their doll or even how they treat their doll it's a very different view that what would go on with any other sort of inanimate object. A lot of that goes against the social norms of most societies.

 

That's true, but I think that with the idea of counter culture there's a certain amount of intent behind it. For example punk (in its early days, anyway) is an example of counter culture I'd say. The way they dressed and acted as well as the music they liked was all very much against popular and mainstream culture.

On the other hand, anthropomorphizing is something that many people do with many things. How often have you heard someone complain that their computer didn't like them? They're aware that their computer isn't human but they've still given it a human quality. I don't see that as counter culture. The same thing applies with BJD's. I can understand that some think it's "weird" to collect them and treat them in a human fashion, but that doesn't mean that the hobby is really going against mainstream society.

 

BJD is too huge to be a "counter culture". I consider it more of a niche hobby. To me a "counter culture" is something rebelling against the norm. BJD is not really rebelling against anything and truth be told I have not found it that different from collecting other art dolls or even in some cases fashion dolls, except that the BJD collectors may be significantly more interested in Asia and Asian cultures.

The rest of the original posters questions have already been addressed in other debate threads.

 

Yes, but you're not attacking the society. A counter culture is directly against the current culture and all that it stands for. Think of hippies in the 60's as reference. Whereas a subculture, which I think is a more fitting term, has alternative views and practices but does not clash with popular society.

Signed,
Nitpicky McPicker

 

I know I know. I'm getting wrapped in definitions and terminology.

That definition is correct. But I don't think BJD owners are rejecting nor do they appose dominant values. Tattooing was never a "counter culture," rather, it was and has always been a part of the "subculture." A counter culture would start a riot while a subculture would be poked at and looked at with oddness or even disdain.

For example, a current counter culture might be anarchists, who disagree with the structure of leadership.

Edit (for one more comparison): A subculture lives submersed within the dominant culture while a counter culture lives in rejection of it.

Signed,

Nitpickier McPickerest

 

I think a lot of my views have been expressed by other people, but I do have one or two things to add

-Do you consider BJD a sort of counter culture?

I think in a way it is, here in the UK anyway. Most people I have mentioned my hobby too have absolutely no idea what I am talking about. In my general little corner of the world, being in the "alternative culture" such as goth/emo/punk/lolita will get you stares, even though they're technically mainstream on a Global scale. So, collecting dolls, let alone, BJD's is pretty counter-culutre. That said, i've just come across another collector of BJD's a couple of miles from me. And, i'm thrilled- so that brings me neatly onto the next point...

-Do you believe that BJD should remain an "exclusive" hobby?

I guess i'm a bit of a freak in the opinion that I'd be mad upset if peope like Jordan (big boobed bimbo) starting releasing BJD's of herself and acting like she invnted them. It'd make me really groan. It's a bit like the fact I have a chihuahua and people come up to me and actually say "aww, did you get one 'cus Paris Hilton has one?" now, I have long black hair, dress in Victorian attire and am heavily tattooed and pierced, so I respond with a sarky smile and "Yah, I like totally base my life on her"...truth is, I got my chi waaaaaaaaay before she got hers. It pees me off when that sort of thing happens, i'm not elitest, just kinda like some things to stay mine

-Would it matter if it became popular? Like would you just stop collecting?

In short. No way! Fads come and go. Perhaps there will come a time when BJD's are suddenly it and everyone is buying them (I doubt it, fortunately the prices are enough to put off most fan-girls and boys), but people will get bored of them. They always do. Then, loads will end up on ebay or whatever, and the rest of us oldies can snap them up hehehe!

-At what point is the exposure too much?

Like I said before, when people like Jordan or Paris Hilton start acting like they invented them or something, that'd really suck. It wouldn't put me off BJD's, but I might be a bit more quiet about my hobby, or i'd become an elitest. Hard to say.

-Do you feel special because you collect these dolls? Would you feel less special if more people were active within it?

I don't know if I exactly feel special, the response my dolls get can be ever so nice, I get embaressed however if people ask the price of them and I tend to lie and make out they're only about £100 (which people still think is expensive! ). I certainly wouldn't feel less special if more people became interested; I love the community we have here. We are a super bunch of talented and imaginative individuals and i'm so glad we have such an incredible medium to be inspired by and to show our skills and love through. If more people discovered the love of BJD collecting, learning to sew clothes for them, paint face-ups, create stories and take amazing photos- then I'm sure this world would be a beautiful place!

Absynthe x x x

 

But a style is a "value or behavior" (or, most often, a combination thereof). Therefore, those collectors are seeking something that opposes the dominant style of their home society.

In this half of the world, where the dominant style of dollery is either chubby babydolls, lady-dolls in costume ruffles, or fashion-dolls, the style of BJDs does oppose this almost completely. For just one example: traditional Western-style male dolls look like Ken or G.I. Joe; BJD male dolls offer a representation of masculinity that is very much in opposition to that. (Decades of cultural indoctrination have left their mark even within Western BJD-hobby, too, because every other day here on DOA you have to read another complaint of "Eww, why are those boy dolls so girly?")

But sure, semantically nitpicking, I agree that BJD hobby is definitely more subculture than counterculture. A counterculture would be actively involved in bringing down the norm; a subculture just wants a place to play with what it likes, without bothering with what the mainstream is doing.

 

couldn't help but laugh at the religious subset bit heheh

 

I won't disagree with that. I guess what I was trying to get at is there are some collectors whose dolls represent something that is different from their own society, however I don't see BJD collecting as an example of counter culture. I'm sure there are collectors who are part of something counter cultural though.

To really be an example of counter culture it seems like there has to be a defining "thing" that the group works/is working against. I just don't get the feeling that the BJD hobby as a whole really has that.

 

1. No, because collecting BJDs doesn't counter anything I think BJDs only take on the 'counter-culture mantle' when they are owned and dressed and posed in the style of a counter culture. I think to some extent, Goth culture is a counter culture, therefore Goth styled BJDs are part of that counter culture...but BJDs on their own aren't.

2. I think there is a difference between exclusive and small. 'Exclusive' indicates a level of snobbery I'm uncomfortable with, but I don't see a problem with people wanting their hobby to stay small. As it is, living in an area of the UK with few BJDs and even fewer sources of pre-made clothing, I could stand for the hobby to get a bit more popular here if only because it will help me find stuff for Gwenllian...but if every household had one? I doubt I'd like that. Nothing will stop Gwenllian being special to me, but if everyone on my street had a BJD I'd feel a bit like it was a bandwagon thing, rather than everyone really loving the hobby.

3. I wouldn't stop collecting, but neither would I become involved in local doll events. If the hobby got uncomfortably big, I'd restrict myself to the online fandom and boards, rather than face huge crowds of bandwagoners.

4. I think something has too much exposure as soon as someone like Paris Hilton or Britney Spears has one under their arm and they talk about them in an interview. When/if that happened, people would buy dolls simply because someone famous had one...there was an explosion of people buying tiny dogs after celebutantes walked around with dinky dogs in bags. I don't think this explosion of interest would be beneficial for these flakey collectors or for people who have been in the hobby for longer. The waiting times for dolls would soar, the quality would decrease...I don't think overexposure of these dolls would make anyone happy.

5. No, I feel special because I am special No, seriously, I don't need Gwenllian to feel like my life has a purpose/worth/is special. I love her to pieces because she's a OOAK customisable doll, with a sweet personality, cute clothes and amazing shoes. I love her like a companion...but she doesn't validate me as a person and I wouldn't expect her to.

 

BJD's appear simply to be a hobby, like many others, with a small fanbase who know and love the subject, and large number of people who either know nothing of it, or else are mild detractors. (And obviously there's the occasional individual vehemently opposed to them, generally for no real reason as far as I've seen.)

The only difference between BJD's and other things I'm into is the cost. Sure, some other hobbies are a little pricey, but they tend to pale in comparison. And I think that that is the major reason for the hobby not spreading.

On the plus side, lack of knowledge of this hobby allows me (as a guy) to feel more comfortable with owning the dolls. I feel that if it were more mainstream it would very much turn into a girls only thing.
Which would be a shame, because BJD's are one of the most aesthetically pleasing hobby items I have seen - and I like having a slice of something so beautiful.

 

interesting thread. i'm that kind of person who stopped listen to one band because they started to be popular - but the real reason was that more popular they were more commercial their music was. if you know what i mean /sorry for my poor english/. and something like that can't happen with dolls /i hope so/ . i love everything with real passin and real feelings . if one band is popular /let's take pink floyd for example/ and i still hear the same passion in their music i don't care they're popular or not. hello kitty is extremly popular but i won't stop like it because it's a little pinky cutie for me still. same with dolls. and yes i have to admit i would prefer if bjd won't become too popular but even if they will it won't change my feelings for them

 

I'm ignoring the first question, just because I tend to agree with the general consensus of 'no, it's subculture'.

-Do you believe that BJD should remain an "exclusive" hobby? (I use that term loosely)
Well, I think that by the very nature of it BJD is an exclusive hobby. Exclusive in the sense that one must be willing to put in the money and effort to really get something out of it. (By comparison, any yahoo can pick up a pack of yu-gi-oh cards for $5 and dump it the next day. The same cannot be said for even the most inexpensive Tiny)
So 'Exclusive' as in only people who really appreciate the Dolls become involved, and yes, I think it should stay that way. Reasoning for this is connected to my answer to the next question.

-Would it matter if it became popular? Like would you just stop collecting?
The only thing that would make me stop collecting is a pathetically far fall in the quality of dolls. Unfortunately, when something begins to become popular, it usually results in companies trying to make it EVEN MORE attractive to the mainstream (Read 'CHEAPER'), and this generally results in a huge degredation of overall quality. Not only because some companies produce cheaper, badly made dolls, but because some people who would have originally invested in the well-made but more pricey dolls are seduced by the cheap ones and end up putting higher quality companies out of business.
It's an unfortunate effect of when something goes from underground to mainstream: Look at what happened to Anime. It used to be only the cream of the crop made it to America; Classics, fan favorites, the really good stuff. Then, the great anime boom happened, and some companies started picking up every little peice they could get their hands on. In the end, fans realized half of what they were getting was crap, and companies like Pioneer/Geneon, and now possibly ADV, went under.
Can you imagine what it would be like after the fall, and only two or three companies were producing BJD?

-At what point is the exposure too much?
The point when product quality begins to fall because of it.
(If All the BJD companies are nice and stubborn though, this might never happen.)

-Do you feel special because you collect these dolls? Would you feel less special if more people were active within it?
I do feel special because I collect these dolls. But that's because I feel like I've invested a part of my self in something I feel to be worth while. I feel special because these dolls help me to create, sometimes in ways that other people might not be able to experience. But it's not the "Only ME!" kind of special. It's the "I've done something well/right" kind of special, as well as the "I belong" kind of special that the community here online and at dollmeets provides.
So no, if more people joined in, I wouldn't feel any less special because of it; I would just feel like I was part of an even larger community.

 

Because of the expense of the dolls and the fact that many people find their appearance frightening, I doubt they'd ever become mainstream. If they did, I'd be happy; however, I'd probably become slightly elitist and limit who I buy from to the people who the mainstream are not buying from.

 

Regarding the counter-culture question, I'd say that, as many people have said, doll-collecting is a subculture, but I would argue that the tastes of some members of that subculture run counter to cultural norms, which might be the source of confusion for the original poster. That's not an intentional thing and it doesn't apply to everyone. But if you are an American, even some of the "manliest" doll molds would be considered effeminate by mainstream cultural standards. I like to collect "manly" doll molds or show pictures of them to friends online and I still get a lot of people who are not from the fandom asking me about "her" when I show them my Aaron who has a frickin' beard! (For some reason, they also think that my female dolls look like men. O_o)

Now if you were to look at Japan, on the other hand, where popular media, popular music groups (not just j-rock, but the pop music as well), advertisements, basically the whole of contemporary visual culture embraces this large-eyed, androgynous, well-groomed, soft featured look in men as acceptably masculine, then obviously their tastes aren't running counter to cultural norms at all. They fit in perfectly with the media industry's representation of hottie guy.

But it's not like people in the fandom are buying these dolls to change the image of masculinity in America or whatever. They just happen to like them. Admittedly, if there were enough people who just happened to like them, that'd do more to change the image than any counter-culture movement could hope to. Ah, the ironies of life. (Did I use irony right?)

I'm so out of the loop with trends in society that I probably wouldn't notice even if the dolls did become popular. (Paris who?) The only problem I could foresee is that there would be more dolls and more doll accessories available and I would buy them all and end up living on the side of the road in a cardboard box with my dolls. Then some of them would get overexposed to the sun and turn green. Eventually I'd die there and you'd have me rotting away surrounded by all these green dolls like some kind of side of the road zombie picnic. It wouldn't be pretty.

In summary, I am special because my mommy says so.

 

-Do you consider BJD a sort of counter culture?
mmm, not really. i see it more as a really expensive hobby.

-Do you believe that BJD should remain an "exclusive" hobby? (I use that term loosely)
no, of course not! i think it should be open to everyone.

-Would it matter if it became popular? Like would you just stop collecting?
not at all. id be more worried about the fact that if demands started increasing drastically, the quality of the dolls might decrease :/

-At what point is the exposure too much?
same as above.

-Do you feel special because you collect these dolls? Would you feel less special if more people were active within it?
no and no. BJD is a hobby that i enjoy because i find dolls to be beautiful, not because less people are doing it.

 

Ooooh, excellent topic! As for my responses,

-Do you consider BJD a sort of counter culture? [clarification in post 19]
uh....nooo, not really. Then again, I'm neither a fan of accepting popular culture, nor do I LIKE any of the stuff that's anti-popular culture. I don't really care if it's one way or the other; I like what I like. I stay away from extremes, though, and I don't think it's extreme.

-Do you believe that BJD should remain an "exclusive" hobby? (I use that term loosely)
Um... sort of? I think it shouldn't be bad for people to OWN a doll or two, but to be hardcore like us (XD members of a BJD forum and all), yeah, exclusive. I'd love to get a doll for a teacher, and one for a friend of mine, but I'm not a millionaire yet.
And I think that other "owners" wouldn't be the same as "enthusiasts". There's a distinction there that I wish to make mentally.

-Would it matter if it became popular? Like would you just stop collecting?
I wouldn't stop collecting, but if it became too much, I would stop actively affiliating myself with it. I'd do it more quietly, and mention it if anyone asked.

-At what point is the exposure too much?
Hmm... when you hear it at least every other day, from different people. I'm not sure how else to qualify it. Or, when the news starts commenting on how it's infected culture. That's a better standard, and the two are at the same point of exposure. XD

-Do you feel special because you collect these dolls? Would you feel less special if more people were active within it?
hmm.... Maybe? I've never really thought about it...

 

I couldn't help but giggle at this...

But mostly because I'm willing to bet that somewhere in Japan there is a Gyaru that has been or is doing exactly that. Or even a brand girl here in the states or in Korea.

And... Well, I guess I don't see how thats any different from girls walking around in jeans and a t-shirt, Lolita, VK, Goth or what have you with their dolls tucked into shopping bags, shoulder bags, carriers, roller luggage or purses.