Cultural differences between buyers and doll companies

Unfortunately our experience with EMS insurance claims from Japan has varied between bad and &@($%!

True, we have only, in hundreds of thousands of packages shipped, had to claim insurance 3 or 4 times, but each time was a deeper quagmire than the last!! Even in cases where it is VERY clear what happened (in one case it was scanned as checked into a post office which was then DESTROYED BY A TORNADO) EMS takes months to even give you any kind of answer at all and then usually asks for documentation which may have expired by the time they are actually processing the claim! Oh, don't get me started on Japanese EMS insurance claims!

But, please don't think the seller is just jerking you around if they're saying there is problems with the EMS claims system. It is deeply deeply flawed. However, although it may take six months to resolve, a good seller will keep after it until the insurance claim is fulfilled and your money is paid back to you.

And, in response to other posters above, I totally agree. There's nothing cultural about sending out damaged, missing or incorrect items! It's more a question of exactly how a company or individual might go about correcting or addressing those problems. Even the best system can have human error or plain bad luck and a good company (wherever they are located) is capable of recognizing that and coming up with a resolution which satisfies both parties. The cultural differences come in (IMHO) most clearly when it's a 'it's no one's fault' scenario. On one side "It's no one's fault so the seller should take care of the problem" and the other "It's no one's fault so the buyer is stuck with the problem." Whereas I myself am a strong proponent of "It's no one's fault now what can we do to fix it so neither side has full liability for something that is not their fault."

Cheers~
Hyla

 

I have to put my grain of salt here.

I think it is time that people who deal with Internationnal selling of their goods know Internationnal Law. I really don't understand the grey area where it is the seller's resposability to assume damage on the item once it's in between shipping. It's neither the seller nor the buyer's responsability but the shipping company's responsability.

That being said, the seller is still binded by his selling contract to make sure the goods sent were well packed to withstand normal shipping conditions. (You wouldn't want your dolls to be shipped in a padded envelope right?

Also don't think it's just a capitalist POV but people the seller of good IS NOT doing a favor by selling you something... that's complete bull.... If the seller has no one to buy his products then he's going under and then let me ask you do you think he should feel entitled to make you feel priviledged that you are buying from them? No not at all, because if tomorrow morning everyone in the world (including their own country) would decided they are never buying a product from them, they will be out of business.

Vendors and buyers have symbiotic relationship, one cannot exist without the other. BUT the buyer is the one with the power here because ultimatly he's the one that has the thing the seller want and that is MONEY! Oh and please don't think that doll makers have a lofty goal to not make money. Everyone wants their labor to be remunarated, it's extremely naive to think that people are selfless. The human race isn't all that selfless when it comes to business dealings. They will at least want to cover their costs, unless they are going out of business.

Also companies that say: "well it's been shipped, so if it's damaged during transit well them's the breaks it's your responsability." are not business savvy. Because nothing is more damaging then having your buyer be disatisfied. Why because a satisfied custumer will tell 2 or 3 people on average if they received a good service from a company but an angered person who received damaged goods and is getting the runaround from the seller will tell 10 times the number of person wo then in turn will inform others. Just look at the Bambicroony thread about the bad service being offered right now. If Bambicroony doesn't get their act together they will loose custumers, with no custumers they will go belly up. Sad yes, harsh yes, but that's the way it is.

so no I don;t care what country you are from when dealing in internationnal sales you should conduct yourself in an internationnal manner and not hide behind your own country's view of things. They are offering a service but if no one buys from them, they no longer exist. So offering bad service in the name of Cultural differences just is stupid IMHO. Probably people from Japan or Korea have a different POV but if they want to deal with the internationnal market they should be at least aware of that.

 

I have to agree with AcexKekkai. I just don't understand this belief that seems prevalent in expensive hobbies that the companies are doing us favors. I hate the attitude of falling over ourselves in gratitude for paying thousands of dollars for a doll.

Lets face it. We're paying for it; so yes, we can take our business elsewhere. Customer service is a part of the international model, cultural differences aside.

I have lived in Japan only a year, but in that year I've never had the impression that I was being given a favor by the people at stores - any store, from Hundred-Yen shops to Tenshi no Sato. I've always been treated with courtesy and respect. At Dolpa, when I bought my Reisner, both Mikey and Shigeta-san thanked me personally. I never felt like I wasn't in control, or like they felt that they were giving me a gift.

Obviously there is a sense of gratitude; but I think that people sometimes take it too far by saying things like, "Well, it's okay the doll has a broken hand, because it came from Korea/Japan, and they have different customs. You should just be glad you got one."

(Obviously this does not apply, in my opinion, to dolls that are ACTUALLY free, like Sei-Tenshi, Rei-Tenshi, or Luts gift heads).

 

I think yellowing is a bit of a different issue than general customer service.

These dolls are all so new that I can't believe that any company REALLY knows what their multiple types of resins are going to look like in 10 years.

It'd be nice if they would all do tests for quality control before releasing new resin, but I really think this is a case of Buyer Beware as I don't know of any company that sells dolls with a "warranty" per se.

If you're concerned about yellowing it'd probably be a good idea to never buy a doll with brand new and un-tested resin...

 

That is exactly the type of attitude that I've been trying to address. For one thing, I object to the assessment of another culture's point of view as being 'bull'. It IS a capitalist point of view that making money is the ONLY thing that's important in business. The fact is that sellers have a number of people willing to buy from them or they wouldn't have a business in the first place. Sometimes, by excluding certain customers you are creating greater demand for your product by creating a since of specialness about being able to buy it.

One seller on Yahoo Japan flatly refuses to deal with men. All men. if she finds out a man is attempting to purchase her item, she will cancel the auction and leave negative feedback. Sure that's cutting her potential sales in half but the point is she doesn't care. Likewise, there are several sellers on Yahoo Japan who utterly refuse to deal with deputy services. They lose a HUGE number of potential sales but they don't care. It is an American and capitalist view that a seller shouldn't care who they are selling to or why. In Japan it is extremely different and it is very frustrating to try to explain to someone who is so surrounded by a capitalist view (which is not just American, it's worldwide now) that the sellers will, without hesitation, turn away potential customers. In Japan, it is traditional that the seller is doing you a favor by selling you the item, and if you don't like his restrictions/attitude/whatever, then go somewhere else. There is no fear of going out of business if you do this, but rather a pride that you are dealing with a 'higher class of customer'. Stating that this attitude is "bull" is ignoring a fascinating cultural reality which is now clashing with the modern globalization trend toward absolute capitalism. And you know, as a country, Japan doesn't seem to be suffering the fate predicted by the pure capitalist... people STILL want their goods, contributing to the proliferation of deputy services. Think of Alchemic Labo. They will only allow a person to buy a single doll of each kind per release, and will not deal with international buyers at all except through their agent Crescent Shop with whom they have an agreement and trust that Masamichi san will follow their instructions to the letter. That's turning away customers left and right! But, they are not in any slight danger of going out of business.

Sorry, I'm really fascinated by this phenomenon, of the seller actually turning away business and not caring if they lose customers. But I'm equally disturbed by the number of times I've seen statements like "You can't do this, you'll go out of business" or threats implying if this customer doesn't get their way then the business will inevitably fail. The attitude that disturbs me is the "You MUST service me and give me what I want" attitude. Which is not only false, it shows a kind of arrogance and unwillingness to accept that there ARE cultural differences and that it is a legitimate choice to do business in a way in keeping with the seller or business's own traditions.

Now, please note that again I am not saying that accepting inferior or broken or mismatched parts is in any way a part of what I have been discussing. I'm just suggesting that the tactic of "Please fix this for me because I know you are a good business and produce quality products and this must have been overlooked somehow and I know you want to make it right" often works a lot better than "OMG this is broken, you better fix this or you're gonna lose my business". Because to certain other cultures, losing your business doesn't seem to bother a seller in the slightest.

H

 

To address this to Archangel_Raphael, for one thing you are in a suburb of Tokyo, yes? The more metropolitan areas are certainly more 'global' in their purvue. Also, it seems to me that you were following their expectations and so there was no basis for conflict really. You didn't ask to be put first in line because you were a foreigner. You didn't ask for a discount at the 100 yen store. (Well, I'm assuming you didn't anyway, I could be wrong.) There is a general pride in providing quick, polite service in Japanese stores. It's when conflict arises, either from someone attempting to purchase something outside of the normal 'rules' (many sellers won't ship internationally not because they have anything against foreigners but they just can't be bothered to go through the problem of finding out how international shipping works and are willing to lose a sale rather than change their usual patterns) or because there is a problem, that the cultural differences become apparent. Try doing a standard 'store return' in Japan... some stores will take them readily, some will, with strong restrictions and some people will look at you like you're crazy for even trying. It's the same as the US but the stores accepting returns in Japan are a lot fewer in number. My Japanese partner was absolutely amazed with the idea you could buy something, get it home and decide it was the wrong size/color/you decided you didn't want it and you could take it back. Of course you could return something if it was broken, missing a part or something but the concept of returning because essentially 'you changed your mind' seems quite alien.

I'm afraid I've gotten a bit OT and if so I apologize. I think it's important that people understand that there ARE cultural differences so that they can find the best negotiation path to resolve problems rather than standing there sputtering 'you can't do this to me'. But, I think this came about addressing fairly specific issues (Bambicrony premature yellowing and mismatched/damaged parts). Again, I never meant to imply that broken/damaged parts aren't something worth making the company fix, I was just hoping my 5+ years experience dealing with sellers from a different culture might help select a more effective tact for having it corrected. "You owe me" isn't always the best method to use. "Surely you didn't mean to send this inferior quality product" sometimes works better.

H

 

Hear hear! That was pretty much my attitude. I seriously considered the risk of purchasing a new type of resin before I bought my colored elf. However, it was an acceptable risk to me. It didn't occur to me that people wouldn't think that this obviously new resin was still more or less experimental. Not trying to insult anyone here, truly! It just honestly didn't occur to me that other people thought they were getting tried and tested resin. I figured it was sort of a gamble but one I was willing to make. Now, I *am* disappointed with the fact that it seems that certain parts which should have been discarded because of severe imperfections in the resin were sent out instead. If we've learned anything from tan resin, it's that it has a really high failure rate and sometimes has unexpected reactions to sunlight/temperature, etc.

When I got my elf, I went "Oh, that's not the color I wanted" and found him another home. Sure, I was disappointed, but I didn't blame Bambicrony really... colored resin has lots of unpredictibility and I was aware of that when I made the purchase. Perhaps they should have made more clear on their site that it was experimental french resin and not a more stable and tested urethane resin.

Or maybe I'm just too easygoing about such things. I've gotten two second-hand elves now and if they do in fact release some more colored elves, I'll probably get another one too! So, I wasn't THAT disappointed.
H

 

i just wanted to nod my head in agreement--i'm also fascinated by this occurance. and also by the fact that it seems many people cannot fathom that there *are* differences in the way business is conducted in other places.

that's all. i don't have anything of substance to contribute to the debate. sorry to be OT.

 

While I completely understand the Y!J sellers who have eccentricities I do not understand it from manufacturers who seek an international audience.

Yes, many of the doll sellers we deal with are small and many dislike dealing with foreigners. That is completely their perogative. No one has to sell to anyone. However, Volks, Bambicrony, Luts, Dollmore, etc. are not those people. When dolls come broken in transit, cracked or otherwise damaged, the company needs to deal with it.

 

Even with a small company, if stuff is cracked/damaged/broken, they need to deal with it. It's just easier to deal with them dealing with it if you approach from a different direction according to the place where the other person stands - like any business. I like "I'm sure you didn't mean to send out this poor quality..." LOL

 

Maybe that's why I rarely have difficulty, that's always been my approach.
Do unto others etc.

 

Ryochan, I think I understand what you're saying now. I misunderstood the first time, sorry.

It frustrates me that people complain so much about rules and regulations with doll-buying. I mean, yes; Dolpa is frustrating, and so is the fact that Alchemic Lab has all kinds of rules to bind it. I myself don't particularly agree with Volk's rule against other kinds of dolls in the store. But I don't know if that's what we're discussing; I was under the impression that the debate was about excusing companies for policies against returning faulty product?

There's a general rule against returns in Japan. Doll-wise, Volks will replace broken parts - even headmolds - but they charge. Now I don't know the exact price but I assume it covers the fee of recasting whatever part. I know of incidences with the Volks store in LA where they've replaced doll parts for free. But that's the store in LA, so their policies might be better suited towards the American Market. But Volks will also do free re-faceups for FCS.

I suppose, that in terms of companies, it's all a matter of how expensive the product is versus the desired quality.

I really just don't like the attitude of fawning gratitude that sometimes is present in the hobby.

 

**Note: when I say "lose money" in this post, I do not mean a simple "decline in profits." I mean actual "in the red," costs-are-greater-than-profits loss.

While I understand the fact that Japanese (and other Asian? Or just Japanese?) sellers may turn away potential customers according to their own cultural atmosphere, and that the profit margin is apparently not their chief concern, it must be a concern in order to stay in business. It is impossible to stay in business if you do not accept enough customers to at least break even on your costs. So, while I'm sure that Japanese sellers do actually turn people away, I guarantee they're not turning away so many as to lose money on their businesses. If they do purposely set themselves up to lose money (which I doubt), I would challenge whether they are not in fact a charity rather than a business. Or, I would ask why the government subsidizes doll companies.

As I hinted above, at some point profitability will cut through cultural traditions--if companies find that applying a certain level of cultural tradition to international buyers causes them to lose money, they will either change their policies or stop selling internationally. Some people were talking earlier in the thread about how if the customer is displeased, the company ought to fix things. Well, first, I do agree with this statement as long as the problem was a design defect or in some way caused by the company. However, second, if the traditions of the company's country would not consider the "defect" a problem in the first place, how should the company know that customers will expect these problems fixed until it happens?

For example (and this is a random example I'm just making up), if in XYZ country the consumers are used to accepting yellowing or fading as a condition of doll-buying, how would a doll company from XYZ know that doll buyers from ABC company consider that a defect? The first person from ABC who complained about it would likely get brushed off, but by the time you get to the tenth or eleventh person (i.e. $5,000+ worth of merchandise, a number I chose randomly), the company is going to start listening. Why? They're faced with the possibility of people from ABC no longer buying their product. Now, let's assume that XYZ has the same cultural traditions as Japan apparently does and this company can simply refuse to sell to people from ABC. If the consumers of XYZ purchase enough dolls to maintain XYZ's existance, or maybe there's enough income to survive by only firing one person, perhaps that's the option this company will take, and it won't care if it has a smaller profit. However, if the company will go out of business and cease to exist without the income from ABC (still assuming the Japanese model is in place), they really have no choice other than to 1. refund people from ABC and hope there is still goodwill and 2. fix the yellowing problem (or alternately, 2. lower prices to account for the yellowing problem) if they want to continue their business. Of course, it could also be the case that they don't want to be in business at all if they have to sell to ABC to do it, in which case the company will close. Honestly, I don't see the analysis changing much if we apply a regular capitalist model instead of the Japanese one, other than the fact that the chance of the company leaving the international market is smaller, because the cost of the refund/product rehauling would have to be greater than the profit derived from international buyers.

My point in all that is that YES, cultural traditions affect how companies do business, but NO, they are not unassailable. When it comes to the survival of the company, suddenly things look a little different.

Please note that I am NOT suggesting that international buyers are completely necessary to the existance of Asian doll companies. In fact, I doubt they are. Perhaps companies that are continually churning out new dolls at a high cost (in terms of face-ups and clothing design) may depend more on the international market to recoup those costs, but I don't believe that any of the companies would go out of business without their international buyers. The question then becomes, how much cost is acceptable to these companies (in terms of refunds/replacements for parts that are not defective in the companies' eyes or lost customers) in return for the profits brought in by dealing in the international market? That similarly applies to these Japanese sellers who do not deal with certain people--how much can they shrink their customer base without driving themselves out of business? Maybe they don't care about making a profit, fine. But, again, I doubt they truly intend to lose money on the venture, either, and if they get into debt with it . . . either their business or their rules will vanish.

 

If a buyer understands the way international companies work, it certainly saves a lot of time and frustration! Being in the US, it's hard to put in that extra work to meet a seller in the middle when I'm used to American businesses who kowtow to anyone with a credit card. I think if you are willing to jump through hoops of fire to get a particular product, then you gotta suck it up and learn what you need to do, whether it's going to a Dolpa or using a shopping agency.

I'm ambivalent on issues of breakage or yellowing. All dolls yellow, and there's no standard on how fast this is expected. So there's no way to say a doll was defective because it yellowed too quickly, because we can't say what "too quickly" is. Likewise, we can't tell or prove when a break occurred, or why; was it lack of care packing? The shipping? For all the company knows, the breakage was the fault of the owner who is lying. So cultural differences aside, I think it's a business decision to replace or not replace doll parts.

On a somewhat side note, like Ryochan, I find the business practices interesting. Japan's consumer culture eclipses even Americans. They are rabid consumers. It helps explain how they can turn away foreign business and be so discriminating and still turn profits. The Japanese love expensive items. They love filling their tiny apartments with them. They love brand names. They love spending money. The more an item costs, they more value it has to them and the more they want to buy it. (This is the exact opposite of the American view: "Where can I get a similar one for cheaper??")

It seems that Korea is a little different from Japan, as you can tell Volks and Alchemic Labo do things quite differently than Luts et al. Volks will only sell you certain items at their stores, or one particular store, or a doll party; AL only deals with foreigners through an agent. And they don't give a crap if you don't like it, same as what Ryochan said about sellers feeling that, "if you don't like it, go somewhere else."

 

This might be a little OT, but I can say I understand somewhat Volks' refusal to let other company's dolls into their store. I work in a kitchen supplies store and often get questions about where to get certain obscure items, which is not a problem, but there are occasionally people who come in and seem to think that we know the stock in a certain direct competitor's store, or even make comparisons. It's a rudeness that drives me up the wall, and I don't think I'm alone in my feelings, even in western society.
That said tho, the extent that Volks takes their policy has the feeling of "if we ignore them (the other companies) then they'll go away"...

 

This is absolutely fascinating.
In the US, for instance, many products cannot survive without being "americanized." Take cuisine. Most mainstream items, such as fast food (i.e. "chinese" and "texmex") are heavily americanized. Ask for sweet and sour pork in China and most people will probably not know what it is exactly that you're asking for.
Of course, you also get the items that have demand simply because they are undeniably "un-american." Such as BJDs, for instance, or fine restaurants, where people are willing to pay more simply because it's harder to get. However, those are niche markets, and rely on a small customer base that happens to pay a lot of money.
I think that Americans, myself an Asian American, are just accustomed to everything being "americanized" for their consumption, from products to customer satisfaction. In a capitalist society, everything is geared toward the customer. However, one has to take in the fact that not every country is of such an attitude.
However, one has to take into consideration that 80% of any business's income comes from 20% of their customers. Business rely heavily on returning customers, and in a niche market, that's even more prevalent. So of course, I'm sure that means if a large percentage of customers is dissatisfied for some reason, a company will be willing to compromise.
But you cannot expect them to be so willing to attend to simply one individual with a unique case. Fraud is a terrible thing.
Business of any kind is risky for both the buyer and the seller. Both parties can stand to lose money if a transaction turns sour, and it's even riskier when you add the elements of different business views and language barriers. Yes, in the end, business is about making money, but there are so many different ways of conducting business that it can get messy.

 

Well here's my thoughts....
I understand completely that there are huge cultural differences at play when buying dolls from Asia but (there just had to be a but, you knew it was coming did'nt you?)......there is absolutely no excuse for poor customer service or shoddy goods.

If people set up companies knowing they will be selling to the West then they should prepare for the way the we shop. Communication may be more difficult due to language problems but c'mon guys, not replying to emails, lying about dolls being shipped out when they have'nt, refusing to replace/refund broken parts or sub-standard dolls is simple old fashioned bad service and i reckon they hide behind the fact that they are thousands of miles away and can simply ignore poor frustrated buyers emails and then blame it on communication/language problems.

You only have to read through some of the threads here to see how badly buyers can be treated by companies and cultural differences are not the cause - it's sloppy business practices.

Let's face it, if these companies were only a few miles away and we could all go knocking on their doors demanding our goods or a refund i bet the customer service would improve overnight.

Western buyers should not feel obligated to feel grateful to receive their dolls that have been shipped late, maybe have faults or wrong face-ups, spent possibly months waiting and left in the dark as to whether the company has even recieved their orders but the money has been taken from their accounts etc.

As soon as a company has your money they think they can do what they like sometimes and we are left biting our nails down to the elbow just desperate to actually have some communication from them. That is'nt right and it is'nt down to cultural differences is it? Or is it? If it is, how on earth do any of the Asian countries economies survive and thrive?

I know not all BJD companies treat their customers like they are doing them a favour to even accept their filthy western money and i have had lots of great transactions but i stick to the ones i trust and that have a good track record of customer service and quality goods.

We, the customers, are entitled to reasonable communication, high standard of goods (we pay damn high prices why not expect high standards) and honest replies to our questions (is lying about items being shipped when they have'nt a cultural trait?) and that, as far as i'm concerned is black and white.....not a grey area.

I could go on and on here but i would just be turning over old ground so i'll bugger off now.

 

Really quick on the USPS taking up the cause. They are absolutely useless and not only give the run around... but don't usually pony up for lost items. They are TERRIBLE to deal with.

 

On the topic of the seemingly Western-originated "customer is always right" mentality, I have this observation to make:

It makes me cringe when I look at Certain Doll Seller/Maker Website Message Boards and read some of the unlocked posts from customers who are upset about one thing or another, like a late order, an incomplete order, whatever. I can't believe some of the rude, condescending, belligerent, and rotten things that people say to some of these people.

In America, there are people who do end up getting what they want because they carry until they get what they want. I think the worst I've ever seen was a guy pitching a fit at Hartsfield Airport because he couldn't get the rental car he wanted. He was screaming at the counter attendant at top volume, and she in turn kept asking him to calm down. My boyfriend and I stood in line quietly, made it to the front of the line, and then got a free upgrade on our rental car in the end. There was a lunch spent with coworkers where most of them were talking about fighting with cops over speeding tickets. My dad told me to never, ever, ever argue with a cop or do anything more than answer their questions with "yes" or "no," and chances are you'd get no ticket... and that strategy's worked. Always. I have a perfect driving record.

I don't get this. I don't even know if it's an exclusively Western phenomenon - maybe it's not. Part of it seems to come from this idea that "you are beneath me, and therefore it is okay for me to treat you as I see fit, because you are receiving payment from me or someone else to be mistreated, so put up or shut up," which was explained to me by a British friend a while ago when I wanted to know why he was always such a jerk to customer service people. Maybe they like to feel in control, I don't know, and tearing into some faceless person gives them that power. My boss is one of those people who brags about whatever customer service person he's belittled lately over some pittance on a phone bill or whatever. The thing is that you can usually solve those sorts of problems by being polite, calm, and very firm about what it is that you want without calling names or acting out in a WWCND fashion (WWCND = What Would Chuck Norris Do?).

I'm neither a diplomat nor an expert in Japanese or Korean business customs, but I can't imagine that leaving some misspelled, sloppy, grammatically incorrect ranting and raving is going to motivate anyone to solve your problem, real or imagined. There are perfectly calm and civil ways of forcefully and directly expressing your disappointment or dismay over something. Belligerence begets belligerence, so it doesn't make sense to get all flip when things go wrong. I also don't think it helps to immediately pipe up about what you feel that you are or are not entitled to receiving in terms of support before you put out your feelers on a situation.

 

Going back to the OP, if something is broken, it's broken. If it's broken on arrival or due to manufacturing flaw, my own personal feeling is that the part should be replaced on good faith. I personally don't mind forking over a couple extra bucks if it means that the problem is solved, and have even done so. It doesn't help to mince words over a faulty product because it doesn't help to make the product better. Turning yellow seems to be the name of the game, unfortunately. I think if something breaks without cause, the fault should lie on the manufacturer to replace it. If your doll takes a spill and breaks, that's clearly your fault and your responsibility.

Given that shipping ain't cheap and casting resin ain't easy, I don't think it's unreasonable for a company to ask for recompense for their time spent repairing a defect that was very obviously messed up and was clearly going to happen, like a ginormous air bubble making a knee explode into oblivion. If it were me and my business, I'd do that for free on good faith. If I was asked to remit payment for something that was not caused on my end or in transit, I'd try to negotiate some sort of compromise, like "I pay shipping both ways, you replace this, sound fair?" I think diplomacy, manners, and being very direct will ensure that all sides come out satisfied.

If it's broken during shipment, it should be taken up with the shipper. If you remove the doll from the box and it breaks like the first time you look at it, I think there's a pretty clear problem there. It's not unreasonable to pursue a replacement part.