Debate Etiquette!

Debate Style:

Rip yer head off till you cry like a child in a corner...I get my point across LMAO, no, really.

What's Fair:

Being as clever/smart/forward/honest/brutal as you can.

 

I'm not sure the majority of DOA would be able to handle brutal comments. I find it can also toe the line into personal attacks; I have seen very few people able to pull off a truely brutal comment without getting a little personal. And that goes against DOA's Debate Rules #1.

 

Heh-heh, trust me, I've had lots of practice.

This is a deabte not a fight, it's about making pertinent (however you spell that) points. I wasn't talking about personal attacks, that has nothing to do with it.

Besides, the question was, "what is your style" not "what do you think of someone elses style".

They want honest answers. I'm giving one. If there is to be a debate forum I belive the moderators are gonna have some busy work moderating it, cause it is gonna get personal.

Belive you me, there have been times when I want to make it personal and I sign in and out cause I get so miffed, but I don't say anything because I recoginze my meaness for what it is, not that everyone else is gonna have the same self control.

I'm not the only one with that style, I'm just honest about it. If this deabate forum gets up and running...it's gonna get personal.

There are topics now that are open for debate and people take them personaly, myself included *coughs*

 

Actually, you quoted brutal under the second question "what is fair in a clean debate", and not "what is your debate style". Hence why I commented on it, considering the general tone of DOA, a brutal attack would most likely be taken the wrong way and be reported.

Yes, it will probably get personal; but it shouldn't. People should not be making personal and snarky remarks to other users; or comments that can be taken as such. The mods had clearly said that would get you thrown out of this forum.

I have plenty of experience with more brutal debates on the giving, receiving and modding sides, and I don't think that it is particularly a style that should be used in this forum. I beleive in was Armeleia who had said in the topic suggestion thread that they wanted this forum to be a more "modding free" forum; and that won't be possible if people make things personal.

 

I have to agree with Koko.

Even though tempers will flare and people will get mad no one has the right to even think of starting personal attacks or getting "brutal". It can be viewed as almost childish as saying, "Because it's ugly, that's why!" Plus, it isn't very effective and will get your opinion ignored by many people, the ones who are taking part and without them you would be speaking to yourself.

In this world debate can be cut throat but there is another way to argue called "killing with kindness." Such as in the Model UN Japan could say they think it would be good to ban coal because it was ruining the countries that are big to the west of them and it's floating over to them. Then the People's Republic of China could easily reply (in a very proper totally legit way mind you) "We thank the wonderful people of Japan for this lovely suggestion but it would cause half of our people to not have power. Not to mention that the other excellent nations of the Asian Realm would be without power as well." See how that sounds? You can easily get into it but be kind about it. (Think like Gandi, no violence. Make the attacker look bad.)

Though, back to the topic of how DoA is. There are a lot of sensitive people on here who don't personally like having their beliefs being told off. Everyone has their opinion and yes even though this is a debate I believe it should be expected that everyone in the end be able to just accept what everyone else thinks. They don't have to believe it but it shows maturity to at least be tolerant to it. I have looked people in the eye and told them "I agree to disagree with you" and that's the end of it. We don't keep fighting until it becomes a war because sometimes no matter what you say, people won't believe it.

(I'm sorry if it seems like I rambled on just thought it would make a nice addition to our little "debate etiquette" topic.)

 

I belive we have people calling other people's dolls ugly right now.

Brutality is already here on DOA, such as members threating to break others dolls.

 

I have not heard that, and I don't believe that anyone would bluntly on the gallery and such, would come out and say that someone's doll is ugly. It is highly unlikely and if you have an example please, show me. I would take back everything I said and shake my head slow at the DoA.

Also, I've never heard of anyone saying that they're going to break any one else's doll on here. If you have an example of that as well, please show me. The closest thing I have to it is scammers, but no actual threats.

For now I stand firm when I say that brutality isn't needed, and please show me what you mean. If you can't then I suggest you change your post in order to be more accurate. Though in order for me to count these things have to be on the DoA. Not events that have happened at meets.

 

How about not killing people who live in america and have bad grammar... too.

 

Debate Style: Wordy. Seriously, though -- I try to be as unbiased and forthright in presenting my stance, and if it's my opinion, well then I'll say so. However, I try to stay open to altering my stance if convincing factual evidence is presented to the contrary. Note, though, it's gotta be factual. Hearsay doesn't do it for me. That said, if a debate turns personal/ridiculously circular/way off-topic, I'm out. I don't feel like lowering myself to the level of folk who resort to ad hominem attacks, and the rest just makes me feel like I'm herding cats.

Debate Etiquette: The basics of read the whole discussion, listen to what other people are saying, type legibly enough that we understand what you're trying to say, etc. etc. are all good. I'd tweak the 'no personal attacks' a bit and add on 'no LOOKING for personal attacks'. If someone disagrees with you, that's their right. Don't go getting all up in their grill and saying they're bashing on you because they disagree and please, for the love of all that's holy, don't hold grudges and carry them outside the debate. Cropping up on a gazillion threads after someone disagreed with you and being combative towards them is counterproductive for the debate, for the forum, and for your credibility in all future debates.

 

Oh I gave ya 3.

 

Just want to add to what Miss Sha said on page 1...

It really, really irritates me when I'm having a good debate with someone on a doll forum and someone comes in and says, "They're just dolls!!" I know they're just dolls, so why is this person interrupting my debate with this remark that more often than not comes across as condesending and rude?

Just wanted to throw that out there because some people don't seem to realize what an annoying comment that is

 

Debating style. I haven't got one, because l am not a trained debater. I can follow an argument closely enough and generally can tell whether someone is committing a logical fallacy - but I can't guarantee that I won't make one myself

And that, I feel, is the primary problem with almost every Internet forum I've seen. People are *not* trained to understand the difference between an emotional statement of personal belief and an "argument" that is backed up by fact, etc. Some are fortunate enough to have gone to schools where this is taught but I'd venture to guess (<-- personal opinion backed up by no fact whatsoever) that the great unwashed masses are not so fortunate.

Which leads to the next problem:

Clean debate:

A clean debate focuses on the ISSUE and not the PEOPLE. At least to the extent it can. A dozen people at least have already mentioned "no name-calling," "don't make it personal," etc. Boy, that is a really hard task for some of us, particularly when an issue pushes that "hot button."

I truly agree, with all my heart, about the pleas to avoid net-speak if possible. It's really hard to debate if you need to break out a code book to decipher what's being written . (Hint: English-language words generally do not include numerals.) But while I agree, it really hasn't got much to do with whether the debate is "clean" or not.

That's why I probably won't take part in too many of them. Too much bad water under my particular bridges (not here, fortunately).

Oh and a totally unrelated note: Armelia, the post about doll-breaking is real, but it involved someone's experiences on her LJ. It wasn't a threat made here on this board, thankfully enough. If I could remember where the heck it lived, I'd send a link. But it's not something the mods can do anything about, I think, except to encourage people to be tolerant to other people's choice of doll manufacturer.

 

The talk about doll-breaking is in the Dollzone Originality discussion thread under General Discussion. But you're right, the threats were on LJ and through emails. I've heard people mention receiving hostile PMs as well but every time the mods say 'please report these to us' no one seems to do so. What can anyone do in a situation like that then?

Back on topic, I would like to add that we should all remember that everyone will have different ways of seeing (I mean literally) things. In all those debate on doll originalities, it isn't conducive to go "I don't see the similarities, so I don't see why there's even this debate." This works the same for people who go, "I see the shocking resemblance and you must be blind not to see it too." This might seem like a specific opinion, but I've lost count of how many times I've had to repeat in a debate that what you see, is what you see. It's ridiculous to demand everyone to see the same thing, especially if it isn't backed up by explanation and proof.

 

I think if anyone has recieved cruel PMs it should be fair to let them quote them in the debate, if it is relevent and they have not altered the PM they recieved. Or would this make things too personal?

 

I'd rather just see those PMs dealt with a moderator before posting here. I doubt an unneccessarilly cruel PM would merit being brought out into the public, and if it is one that could possibly be relevant to the thread, a moderator would be able to decide if that's the case.

It does seem like it would just be an issue then between two persons, and really, that doesn't need to be brought to the entire board's attention.

 

I'd want to know how posting a personal conversation without the other person's consent is acceptable, cruel words or otherwise. I don't see what it has to do with debating.
It should be reported to a mod and be done with.

 

Yeah it should be reported, but I firmly believe that maybe we should get a heads up. I know it seems silly but sometimes mean people just need to be avoided.

Though I'm going to be brave and say usually when someone gets a threat or something to that effect they usually set themselves up for it. Either by provoking someone or doing something stupid. (These are my own personal experiences so take this with a grain of salt.) So maybe both parties should be flushed out in order to show just how it happened? I'm not saying that it should be here but maybe the mods could keep a database for themselves on who did what and why. That way they can keep track of everyone and give us a list of usernames to look at. Just to make sure that if someone sensitive then they can keep away.

Also, even if the threats are on LJ or e-mail if one has the DoA user name of the person couldn't they still report them? Honestly harassment is harassment and it's just wrong. I would venture to say immature but I won't since like I stated earlier sometimes people ask for it. (Can't win either way can we?)

This is confusing issue though on what to do. Maybe certain people should be reported to other members in a warning if they're being mean for no reason? (If you keep poking the dog it will eventually attack, but some dogs just bite for no reason.) I know some people on here have issues at home, but I don't believe that it has to be brought onto here by biting off other's heads... (Or threatening to break someone's doll! I would of been so furious!)

I swear if the mods weren't here to think things through we'd all be lost. haha (This topic confuses me in what to do even though I know I can't do anything about it.)

 

So if I follow your logic, anyone who has received a warning should be on some public list, there for those "too sensive" to check?

I think that is a horrible idea, personally. If a user was warned by a moderator, it should be a private matter between them. If a person is that sensitive, they should not be online.

I'd imagine that the mods could do nothing about offsite harassment, even if the users in question had the same name, there would be no way to 100% proove it was the same person. Besides, I imagine that DOA (like most sites) cannot do anything to protect their users offsite they don't have mod powers or control over what people do off of DOA.

As for that last line; I'm sure many users here can think for themselves and don't need the mods to tell them what to think. DOA isn't 1984.