"Discontinued item" A sellers foolishness.

I'm not convinced that doll companies are "run by artists." That's not how small businesses usually work in Western nations, and I suspect this isn't true in Asia, either. I'm not saying that an artist can't have all the diverse skills and capital to start a doll company, I just don't think it's likely. It's too bad we don't have more in-dept interviews with company representatives, detailing exactly how a company was founded. Don't we have examples of artists working for more than one company? Some videographer needs to make a feature-length film about doll companies, because there's so much we are assuming without knowing. Anyway, in general I agree with Avadon that their business model has some flaws, at least in dealing with Western buyers.

 

I don't like it when companies get rid of items on their page, even if they'll never restock it. I like to see what they have produced, in order to get a feel for the company and find things that I like that I might be able to find secondhand. It's pretty boring to navigate a site that only lists what they currently have or are producing, because the list tends to be extremely small.

At the same time it would be nice if it was more clear if something is sold out permanently or just temporarily sometimes. I think it's fine to discontinue things, there are lots of reasons and I think its a bit entitled to think that everything should be available all the time, as nice as it would be it probably just isn't possible.

 

I'd like to know what factual information individuals have on the organizational structure of ABJD makers.

If you could please link me to these factual articles I would greatly appreciate it.

I don't think a business making money is greedy. That's what a business IS.

Again, if they weren't making enough money they would not be able to sustain themselves.

 

I don't think they can get nearly that many usable casts out of a mold. Dollshe's casting service offers to cast dolls in a set of 20 as a maximum. They say after that the mold degrades too much to get quality casts from it. Other casting services have a minimum order of 50, so I think they can get about 50 dolls before they have to stop using the mold. Dollshe is very particular about quality, so I think that's why they don't make more than 20.

In that case, I don't think they would sell enough dolls to continue running the company, to be honest. I really don't think they sell as many of each doll as people make it sound like. Of course some sculpts are very popular, but others people hardly buy. For example, I bought an SDF Vega from Luts (a well known company). Vega is limited to 200 dolls, and he was released in Dec 2012. He's still available on the site. So well over 2 years later, they still haven't sold 200 of him (I'd guess they've sold no where near 200 yet). Can you imagine the disaster it would be if they had made a bunch of Vega dolls to keep in stock, and then no one bought them and they sat on the shelf for 2+ years? And who wants to spend $500 on a doll that's been aging for literally years? There's a very big reason why these dolls are made to order and not in advance.

As for discontinuing dolls, well, I think the company itself knows if a limited doll sells better than a basic. I think a limited release does increase interest/sales for the company. If they kept the would-be limited sculpt available forever, interest/sales would decrease, and the shop would become cluttered with too many poorly selling products.

 

Rather than removing sold out items, I prefer the archiving idea. I sometime go to the site to look at some of the outfits I buy from them, especially if it has quite a few layers, to see how to put the outfit together for the first time. Seriously, some of the biweekly outfits from soom are so daunting to put together when you open the packet.

 

Pointing out bad business practices is NOT acting entitled! OMG. The analysis of the Fairyland/Minifee website was spot-on - & objective. Obviously none of these companies have to listen to any criticism etc. But when it's good advice, well, maybe some should.
I love being able to see old, out of stock items. But I prefer that the new, available ones be prominent so I don't have to wade thru pages of unavailable items to find the few I can order.

 

Where would these factual articles come from, the BJD newspaper? XD

If you look through company sites and find their anti-recast statements, a lot of them include some info about the size of the company, since one of the big pro-recast arguments seems to be that it's okay to steal from "big companies." But a lot of my knowledge of companies is just from dealing with them over the years so there's no paper trail I can point to. Again, if you really want to get it from the horse's mouth, go post on some CS boards and see what they say.

 

Oh, I had just assumed the way some where posting there was information available. I thought perhaps I had over looked it.

 

I can agree with the paging through the sold out items gets to be a little bothersome (is it forever or is it temporary…but if it really bugs me, I just ask the company about it) I also like to see the full portfolio of items carried/made so I don't mind everything being listed. It's a good reference for provenance or just research & idea gathering.

I do appreciate it when companies sort their discontinued or sold out items toward the later pages and more current items are on the front pages. And to be honest, 1/2 the time I'm glad things are unavailable…it saves me money.

 

Here's an interview with Fairyland that may be of help to some of you as far as factual information goes: http://imcatchingfireflies.blogspot.nl/2013/06/interview-with-fairyland.html

 

ooh, neat. Gotta sit down and read this.

I found this part the most interesting for personal reasons. (Curiosity mainly)

As for other interviews, I believe bjdcollectasy has a couple. I haven't read them so I can't say if there is any insight to the doll making and selling process though.

edit they're at the top under featured articles. I don't know what's appropriate to link and what isn't (I need to do a refresher read on the forum rules >>; ) so I'll refrain from posting any for now.

 

I forgot to add that I know someone (I can't mention their name, sorry) who used to work for Dollzone. That company is very much run by the artist, who also runs Dollchateau and makes all the decisions. Same goes for Ringdoll, where the artist was a very famous Chinese cosplayer who went into dollmaking and makes all the decisions there. And Danny Choo comes to mind also

 

the only thing I feel qualified to weigh in on is the 'remove discontinued items' from the sites... O M G... no No NO! With as much as is sold on secondary markets 'especially' for limited's, sometimes the ONLY way to verify just what you 'should' be getting is by being able to look at a sites original sale page. Very little of this stuff comes in 'sealed' packaging so buying Mint In Box (or however you want to call it) is a 'trust' thing only unless you can see what's being sold second hand and compare it to how it came new.

And don't say 'ask for the purchase sheet' or something... cuz you can buy blank nudes of extremely limted "sets"... too much is mix/match/item choice. We need to be able to see how something was originally set up for sale so we can know if we are getting what we should.

And then there is also buying bits to complete a full-set.... Some ppl divvy up 'sets'... sell what they don't want to keep... those sale pages are the only way to figure out what all we might need to locate...


I do however agree sites need to be maintained in a way that sifts out the new available product and keeps them at the 'front' so to speak.

As for finding stuff on sites.... don't just expect it to be all the same from company to company... You have to learn how each company organizes it's pages and products.... DON'T BE LAZY look at ALL of the site... go read the 'about' sections... you'd be surprised what you can learn about a company...

and company specific threads on DoA are a bloody gold mine of information if you care to look and ask the 'yappy' members ^^. Check out ppls doll lists... if they own 50 of a company's product... they just might know a bit about them (not always true but it can work).

 

BJD collectors do seem to be a particularly fickle breed, but I agree to extent that this encouraged by the companies. I'd like to see a move away from the 'limited edition' model of business but I doubt it will happen at this late stage. The bigger companies like Volks and Soom started this model and others had to follow because basic products can't compete with all the Limited's. A buyer will always go for the limited item and the basics are pushed down the list. I also have a problem with the pre-order model (in some cases, I understand for the very small one artist companies they need to use it) because it puts all the risk on the buyer and very little risk on the seller. It dosen't seem fair.

It's a shame because in the case of CP, they used to work with Luts who were very organised and capable of producing a large catalogue of basic CP sculpts, all sure sellers, with fairly consistent quality (beauty green dolls aside). Limited were released fairly regularly but not to the detriment of the basic dolls. Then they moved to work with the Fairyland marketing team, which seem incapable of coping with the demand for CP products. They keep introducing new lines and then discontinuing them. I've decided I'd love a 60cm feeple boy (just took me awhile to realise it) but who knows when they'll put them back up for sale. It's a shame because part of what made the Delf line so popular in the early days was that they were always readily available, unlike Volks and Custom House who were already focusing heavily on limited editions.

 

This is a good point. If you do a lot of business with a company, you become familiar with their organization. The bigger companies who hire artists are the exception rather than the rule. For instance, Elfdoll and Granado are two people, artist very much in charge. ShinyDoll-- one person, the artist. Supia-- I believe one person, the artist. Bimong-- one person, the artist. Many more examples I can't think of at the moment.

That said, it would be a good idea if companies had a separate archive for discontinued items, but I'm not a web designer so I don't know how hard it would be.

 

I also agree with the topic. I'm also new to the doll world. I've been looking for certain dolls and I have been hitting the sold out block a lot.

 

I'm curious how big the collector's market actually is. Because I don't think it's very large. Most teens and adults don't have an interest in dolls. Especially dolls that many view as creepy. If it's a smallish market, then you're going to mostly rely on repeat customers who aren't going to want the same sculpt over and over again. It's more profitable for them to move on to the next big thing rather than make older dolls that aren't going to generate as many sales.

They could revamp their sites with some sort of "available" filter. But I have a feeling that their sites are out-of-the-box models and those features aren't available to them.

 

okay this kind of collecting was never meant for 'kids'. and just look at the number of members of DoA... and this is an 'english only' club/site... Don't kid yourself... the collectors market is huge. But like with ANY collectible... it's extremely 'buyer' specific. Meaning it's hard to find a doll and buyer combination. Given the fact that these dolls are highly customization just makes that harder... it's finding your target buyer that is hard... And mass marketing which this thread implies would be better takes the 'collectible' aspect out of it.

No one cares much for the Barbie you can get for cheap at any store and in volume.... collectors want the ones that were in smaller quantities like they were in the beginning. It's the 'limited' Barbies or 'exclusives' that we (Bab's collectors) want. And don't get me started on trying to find resources to 'know what came before'. >< I have yet to find a reference for an outfit set I am trying to rebuild... I would love to have a 'sold out page' for it hanging about but they didn't exist then and now trying to find the items no one recalls.... not fun. Taking 'years'.

And the world of modern bjd's is still 'relatively' new... 'dolls" have been around for hundreds of years.... this specific type available to the NOT upper echelon of society is still in it's infancy by comparison. It also came from a particular part of the world with differing ideas and is still slowly moving outward... the fact that you can't find store fronts in the western world like you can in the Asian parts proves that much.

We are also battling a 'throw away' society that is only used to get-use-toss of items rather than get-keep-treasure. And this is a newer generation of ppl...My generation if we find this stuff loves it... even if we don't get into the hobby itself.

About 'separate' archives... not actually needed... Iplehouse for the most part has a fairly good system where 'new' stuff is at the tops of lists of stock and the 'sold out' stuff at the end ... (note out of stock is not the same thing as they do have items they can't keep on shelves at times ><). You can also change to display order to 'by name', 'popularity' etc. So moving/removing stuff is not 'necessary'. IH is also an example of 'small business'.... when one worker who handled the English message board went on a few months leave.... it was a face up artist who took over her tasks.... slowing stuff down.... They do not always have staff to assign to 'every' task... so mass marketing ... no and they have been dealing with the "problems" of not having space to keep layaway items never mind a supply of 'in stock' large items. And as the newest theme is so wildly popular they need to get 'old stock out'. Which has been a boon for a few lucky ppl I might add.

 

I like the old pics of sold-out or out of stock items, too. I agree that it would be nice if there was a way to separate the in-stock things out, but that kind of thing is NOT easy to do, particularly when you don't have the personel to dedicate to a website. You'd have to coordinate it with what people have just put in their baskets or just bought, which can change in seconds. Even major websites have problems with that and these are small companies (and they are ALL small companies, whether artist-run or not, with limited resources and limited storage and personnel).

Whenever people say things like "why are companies run in a certain way when it's obviously wrong and stupid"--it SOUNDS entitled, let's face it. Companies make their own decisions and if buyers don't buy, then they will either change or go out of business, but if they are actually staying in business, their system obviously works for them. And all doll companies are operating on a very thin line where they can fail at any time if they mess around too much... so maybe people have ideas they want implemented--but companies have to be conservative because if the idea messes with their model too much, they can crash and burn and everyone loses: artists, employees, buyers.

I really don't get all the serious complaints. If you don't like something, don't buy. If you want the doll, then you want the doll and will wade through awkward websites. It can be frustrating, but it's not life and death. It's buying a luxury item. If it's too much trouble, then don't do it. I DO agree that there are times when it seems like companies don't seem to want the money some would love to throw at them to get certain things... But if something can be improved, and people communicate that in a polite way, companies will gradually change if they can. I've seen it happen. I've been here for over 10 years and believe me, things have changed a LOT in that time! It is LOADS easier to get dolls and items NOW. And it gets easier all the time.

But most people who are new can find it frustrating. Believe me, I found it frustrating way back when, too. However, it's frustrating for anyone trying to buy anything that they can't find easily. Even mass-produced toys, when you're running around at Christmas and it's sold out and you need to get it for a kid who is dying for it, can be a total exercise in frustration. That's how it goes, though. It's not like PS doesn't want to stock ALL the stores up to the max, you know. Or Apple. People think, oh, they do it for the publicity of all the people rioting on long lines! And that can help with some, but will turn others off (I hate that kind of thing and won't buy). But they are more often stuck because factories are taking longer than they thought or stores didn't order enough, early enough, or production was held up by technical problems or bugs... Companies don't want to lose out on money but no matter how well-planned or big or small the company is, crap happens.

Often clothing items are held up by not being able to get the right fabric or gimp. Dolls turn out to be harder to produce because of sculpt or resin color or time of year... molds wear out. Sometimes molds can't be re-made, or it doesn't make economic sense to do it, even if a few more people want to buy the doll. That's just the way it goes.

 

This, right here.

I know FairyLand was cited more than once as "a terrible website," but their waiting room thread here shows just how little trouble people are really having at figuring out how to order from them. I'm sure a lot of the ranting at "sold out dolls" is directed at companies like Soom, as well, but they also look to be doing very well.

These companies don't need to conform to a way of selling that a few people demand. It really does sound terribly entitled. Now, yes, it would be nice if it was easy to sort the Out of Stock from the In Stock, but practically every site uses the same template already, and that template already doesn't work right. Do we really want to try to add another factor into things that might make the template even worse?

Learning to adapt to the nature of the hobby is an important part of it. And claiming that no other hobby does things like this is ridiculous. Every hobby does it. I have a stockpile of boxes of older, unopened Magic Cards--I don't have time to deal with them right now, but I can't get those boxes anymore. They're discontinued. A friend of mine tonight has been talking about discontinuations in the American Girls line. My late aunt collected limited-edition Cabbage Patch Kids back in the 80s (I have two of them, from her estate, that still have their numbered hang tags). I can't go out and easily buy new versions of my anime figures, and all the old box sets I have (from back in those days) are likewise no longer readily available. Hell, even Disney does this with their DVDs and the "Disney Vault" gimmick they use to keep their prices high! (And let's not get started on the ridiculous "disco inferno" at my workplace...)

That's the nature of hobbies. Things are limited to drive demand, and to clear inventory out for new releases. Limited and discontinued items encourage development and prevent stagnation. They allow for companies to keep moving forward, making advancements, developing and evolving with the hobby itself--and introducing new trends that can evolve the hobby as well. Nothing about discontinued items is foolish at all.