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"Discontinued item" A sellers foolishness.

May 4, 2015

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    1. I have considerable experience casting models. Never casted BJD's specifically but I highly doubt it's that different. If they are cast in Silicone RTV rubber (platinum or tin cure) then depending on the silicone you can get up to 100 or more casts out of a mold. That's quite a large amount of pours. As I said, some simple molds will last longer then more complex molds. But I don't believe these parts have massive amounts of undercut like some engineering parts can have. Not every cast is perfect but that leaves you with a good margin of error. Like I said, new molds can be pulled from the original parts. If you have to pull new molds 5 times, that can make over 500 dolls.

      Your argument is nothing more then an ad hom which fails to actually address any of my concerns. The "love it or leave it" mentality doesn't address my argument. It's just a diversion.

      You're discussing a different situation then I'm talking about. We both agree in discontinuing lemon sellers. But discontinuing hot items that people desperately want is what I'm talking about. Discontinuing items that a great many people are willing to pay for just for the sake of having it "limited edition." That's the mentality I disagree with.

      That's so true, it either says "We are going out of business" OR "We make very limited runs in the hopes of getting large amounts from people and when the dolls are sold out/gone we don't care how much money you have or how many people want it" The latter is a very strange mentality to have with customers.

      Mold lifespan is dependent on several things
      *How high quality is the silicone you're using and how well suited is it to cast that part
      *How complex is the part. More complex parts are harder to remove from molds and can damage sensitive or thin edges quicker.
      *How many casts are going to be made in that mold.
      *What type of mold release is used
      *How expert is the mold maker

      There probably is others, but some simple parts you can almost use those molds indefinitely while other very difficult undercut parts might start showing some signs after several dozen casts.

      I don't know where you get entitlement. I see foolishness when a company has countless products on a web page that cost $500-1000 (not cheap) but they refuse to sell more then half of them to me or others even though they blatantly admit they get asked all the time to make them. That just seems utterly insane. In fact it's almost some kind of arrogance to display lots of creative art and then refuse to sell it to people, yet also won't refuse to stop taunting people with it. It's kind of like saying "look how many great things we make that you can't have." It's really lunacy. That's why I liked the idea of removing the products from the shopping experience and putting them in a "Previously sold gallery" so they aren't in the shopping line up where people are looking at available products. And like others said, there's not even a filter button. Very frustrating to customers and a total let down to see products they like, then on closer inspection they realize they can't have them.

      Interesting, the recasting thing is not something I thought about. It's very possible they feel that once the dolls get out there that there is basically so much piracy that they can't protect the patent(if that's even possible to get a patent) and that's why they just keeping endlessly making new stuff and letting things expire. I wonder if companies ever go after the recasters in lawsuits? Seems like just sending a cease and desist letter might scare many recasters away from putting the doll up on a web page for sale. But I don't know, maybe it really doesn't deter them. I see monster high re-casts and I think I wouldn't mess around with Mattel if I were them. ;)
       
      #61 Avadon, May 7, 2015
    2. That's quite interesting, I was under the impression that because they were small companies that they were almost exclusively cast in-house. Sending the product off seems pretty risky for the company. Is this why it takes 60 days on some of these dolls. because that seems almost nonsensical. Houses are built in 60 days. For a doll to be made I would think a 2-3 weeks at most considering some of it has to be in inventory somewhere. But if they're calling up another company and placing an order for resin type+color+other specifics and then have to get it shipped to them from somewhere else, before they can even start customizing (i.e faceup, blushing, etc.) then that would make sense why it takes a really long time. If it were my company I would only do it in house. Having control over production and quality is where its at. I used to do have a large vaccum pressure tank I could lower molds into. It would have done several dolls at once provided the cure time on the resin isn't too fast. I wish I could see how successful bjd companies operate (sorta fly on the wall experience) to see why they do this versus that. I still think the large discontinued line-up looks really poor to customers and legitimately frustrating to old and new in this hobby.
       
      #62 Avadon, May 7, 2015
    3. The issue with in house casting is plastics safety infrastructure -- vent hoods, dust control, curing space. A small shop may not be able to afford everything, or it may be more cost effective to subcontract these services to a company that handles resin 3 shifts a say, seven a week.
       
      #63 Cezanne, May 7, 2015
    4. You just...defined entitlement. Like, seriously, that second sentence is a textbook example of entitlement in this hobby.

      I LIKE having the older stuff up and available for viewing. It's like a time stamp, in a way. Of my seven dolls, only three still have their original sales pages still up and available, and that's because Luts is awesome and doesn't remove all the old CP Delfs from their site. To me that's especially important in the case of the two Delfs that weren't brought back by Fairyland when they started redoing their old Delf sculpts as Feeples. I can't access the original sales pages of four of my dolls, and that's depressing to me. Sure, you can't get them anymore, but it almost seems like taking the sales page away erases part of that doll's history from the internet. Maybe archiving is a nice idea and all, but I'm pretty sure that small artist-run companies don't employ web programmers that could produce that kind of thing for them (and honestly, with the exception of Volks, these companies are NOT big and even Volks isn't really ginormous). It's easier -- and cheaper -- to leave things as they are. I also feel that, with the recasting kerfuffle up and going, it's important to have the original sales page available; it's like a virtual paper trail of sorts.
       
      #64 Tez, May 7, 2015
    5. That's a distortion of my argument. What I said is if an item is selling well but you want to move on to other things, or if it's not selling well but you'd still like to hold on for potential purchases, then increase the price dramatically. Obviously offering 1/2 the price to try to sell more isn't a possibility for these micro companies. Driving up the price as things become older actually justifies keeping them around and people immediately know that older+out of production things cost more. Like if I want to have an Ferrari F-40 built for me, I know it's going to be very expensive, way more expensive then it was when it debuted so many decades ago. So for the person that must have a doll from 5 years ago they might not mind paying 50% more, especially if they can't find it in the 2nd hand market. That's my argument. The only thing I would ever discontinue would be product flops that just never really went anywhere. But I full understand your post and their ideology that small run+high price=high return. And that they are willing to lose sales that extend further out into time. What I'm saying is charge the customer more for having the inconvenience of keeping these older great products around. Charge them more, or even A LOT MORE. That would be the way I would go. ;)

      I asked a company once and they said the doll was discontinued and admitted it was a hot seller and that people still ask about it all the time. That's what boggles my mind. Makes me think "Dear God!!! Why did you discontinue a hot product that would still do very well, perhaps even at a higher price then it debuted at." That's just being evil towards money and I can't stand people who hurt money lol



      No it would be silly to have every item you ever made always in stock from inception to armageddon. But you can see it seems counter intuitive to pull a product from the shelf when people are lining up out the door for it. But this is the rut they're stuck in and think it works to drive further demand. For me it personally doesn't make me more interested in a company to see many products I want sold out and then I keep digging through the list to find products available only to find I don't really like those products or maybe they are inferior to products that are already sold out. Maybe they think that you'll keep checking back. But that seems wishful thinking to me. You want to capture a person on your website and you don't want them to leave without getting a sale.


      I think you're making your own strawmen and effectively knocking them down here lol. None of this are rebuttals to my arguments I made. No one called anyone stupid either, what thread are you reading? I think you don't understand that we want businesses to improve so they DON'T go out of business. If a company I didn't like had all discontinued products I wouldn't even make this thread. But the reality is many of the doll companies in this hobby do the same tactic. We are debating whether this tactic is beneficial or detrimental. I don't even know if a lot of these companies really know the difference. Don't assume they do. It takes some very detailed accounting to know if a specific marketing strategy is working or costing you. Many restaurants can't even tell you to the penny what a plate of food they sell costs. Of course they absolutely should know, but most don't.


      I think you're living in your own imagination if legitimate marketing concerns somehow equal entitlement. Honestly, that's utterly crazy if you think this "I see foolishness when a company has countless products on a web page that cost $500-1000 (not cheap) but they refuse to sell more then half of them to me or others even though they blatantly admit they get asked all the time to make them" somehow translates into entitlement. A company can discontinue every product if they want. I'm not entitled to anything. But IT IS foolish to turn away money in any business, and even more so when the seller admits that's a hot product but we won't sell it anymore, at any price!! The only way that isn't foolish is if they made such an enormous killing on it by marketing it as "limited edition" that they don't mind turning down countless future sales because they can't find bags big enough to carry all the money to the bank. Obviously that's not happening. I don't think a single person argued taking the discontinued items off the site, ever in this thread. Even in my original post I said move them to a different subfolder which is literally a drop down menu on most of these sites. You add a new folder and then just mark those products to appear in it. Extremely easy. Setting up a gallery of expired products, yes that would potentially take some html, not the end of the world, but more difficult then just sorting discontinued products into a different menu on the left.

      You calling me entitled for what I said would be like me calling you entitled for this "I can't access the original sales pages of four of my dolls, and that's depressing to me." (You think you're ENTITLED to access a website, Seriously!!!) It's just an ad hominem attack and is meaningless to the discussion. Stop.
       
      #65 Avadon, May 7, 2015
    6. don't forget... you ways are also 'western world' business practices.... not Asian... and yes it does make a difference... it's like ... don't try to make a 'mom and pop' business behave like it's a giant corporation. And a lot of these small companies are run like a 'family' business. Even the bigger ones. (not Volks big but not super small). And you brought up production times... Being able to produce 500 dolls a crack isn't going to do anything if you only have 1-3 people doing 'finishing' work. Work that is done by 'artists' and you can't just 'hire more staff' for...
       
      #66 Lady Tiku, May 7, 2015
    7. I'm sorry but I'm really struggling to see your point of view.

      Every bjd artist I've met, despite what you think of them, makes dolls because they enjoy it. They aren't going to get rich off it and they know that. Many BJD sculptors have day jobs as the dolls don't make their full income.

      Not every human in this world is driven by money and money alone. Hell, I make nothing at all on my dealership. I probably shouldn't admit this but each doll I sell pays for its own import and nothing more. By your logic I'm insane. By my logic I love Shinydoll and seeing people own them is it's own reward.
       
      #67 babytarragon, May 7, 2015
    8. I figured you were speaking of discontinued basic sculpts because the nature of limited edition items in any business is that the limited quantity drives up demand intentionally or for other reasons that don't necessarily apply to dolls like a limited license or other such factors. Limiteds are designed to appeal to people with the collector's mindset and impulse buyers who can't help themselves, not the average person. Fullset limited bjds, golden and silver mario amiibos (hell amiibos in general) limited edition video games packed with audio cds and artbooks...that super ridiculously inclusive Final Fantasy 25th anniversary edition set...I digress, but the limited quantity business model is one that not only works but is done in many industries.

      The thing about limiteds is that re-releasing them puts the company in question in a delicate situation. On the one hand, first adopters who bought them on the assumption that they wouldn't come back can end up having relationships sour between them and the company. Most people don't enjoy being lied to. I don't know many companies who would consider it wise to alienate customers who already have given them business in favor of attracting others that may not be willing to invest the same amount of cash (No, wait. I lied, I can name a few video game companies.). Sure we all get access to the doll but that doesn't mean a thing if they don't match the same sales that releasing it as a limited edition would.

      More to the point, limiteds sell quickly because the people who want them rush in to put an order to make sure they get one. If limiteds weren't limited, they'd be no different than regular dolls for sale and the sense of urgency is gone. Instead of quick money that can be reinvested quickly they'd have to rely solely on the normal sales they usually make.

      On the other hand, if the limiteds were sold as fullsets (as the Fairyland ones are) and are later released as basic sculpts (I know quite a few companies who do) they can double dip by making the dolls available to the greater public without the extras and therefore lower costs to the consumer. Whether they choose to do so is up to to the individual company of course.

      What I'm trying to say, tl;dr version is that the fact that they are limited and rare is what often contributes to their popularity in the first place. That's the kind of hobby this is.

      ...Also I really want to know what silicones you're using because I really could use some for my dolls. All the other ones artist casters have suggested won't give me quality products past the 50 mark.

      Unless it's industrial grade cause there's no way I'm working with that stuff in the garage.
       
      #68 Temishi, May 7, 2015
    9. The other problem is that she keeps comparing a hobby to an industrial setting. Sure, you can make billions of copies of some engineering part--because without that part, some machine isn't going to work properly, and eventually it's going to wear out and need replacing, so you keep making them. You don't discontinue a part that causes a large number of machines to break. (Even Orphan Cars still have parts available--there's good business for reproduction parts sales.)

      But this is a hobby.

      Nothing is going to stop working if you can't get a Sard. The world will still turn, life will go on.

      Notice that my post, challenging that literally every hobby does this didn't get a reply from her. Even "western world" hobbies. I see limited Barbies every year, I see limited figurines from Disney. Every big-budget blockbuster movie comes out with some "limited edition" packaging when it's first released--sometimes a different version for every large chain stocking it! Every Trading Card Game is based in a limited nature--that includes all the western ones. World of Warcraft has limited events where you can get (digital) items only for a certain period of time.

      Hobbies are limited. It doesn't matter how many people are clamoring for a limited item, that item is limited, and that's the way it goes. All the counterpoints given here to that just reek of entitlement. "I want it now, you are wrong to deny me!"
       
      #69 vicemage, May 7, 2015
    10. The thing about limited editions is.... their popularity is generally BECAUSE they're limited. If you increase the supply, the demand will dwindle. The item becomes less attractive and less of an immediate "MUST BUY!" because the buyer knows they have time. How many threads are there where people are like "Yeah, I've had these standards on my wishlist for years but I keep putting them off because I keep buying LEs"? A whole heck of a lot. Readily available dolls do not have that sense of urgency and specialness that limiteds have.

      This isn't something that only exists in the BJD hobby. It exists in literally every single collectors hobby in existence, because it is a tried and true business model.

      As for sold out items appearing on websites, if you look at BJD websites, it's pretty clear most of the companies all use the same prepackaged website software. They don't have custom coders on hand, so I am not sure if they have the capability of creating an archive of previously sold items. These really are small mom and pop operations, not big businesses. Even Volks, the largest BJD company, is a small company in the scheme of things, and is run very much like a small family business. Hell, it is a small family business as the Shigetas are the ones that run it. As for Volks website and its labyrinthine browsing, they're a Japanese company and it's entirely in keeping with how the Japanese design websites, which tend to be crowded and hard to navigate. Not sure why, but it's something you run into repeatedly.
       
      #70 Kim, May 7, 2015
    11. I'm completely guilty of having 2 dolls that are standards on my To-Buy list. I really want to get them. I've been trying to acquire them for 2 years now. But... I've fallen (willingly) into the OMG! Must. Buy. Now. trap with other dolls. Granted, those have mostly been MP buys where it truly can be something of a race to snap something up before somebody else does. I've purchased other dolls because the sale of them was limited (OD Il, 1 week sale & a DearMine at Dollism) and I was completely okay with bumping the standards down the list because they are standards. Mind you, if the companies suddenly discontinued their sculpts, there'd be one heck of a mad scramble to scratch up the money for them in a big darn hurry.

      There are a few sculpts I've missed out on and I'm a bit bummed about that and do wish the companies would bring them back even if it was another limited release or special order sort of thing (I'm looking at you, Soom, and pleading pitifully). But as another poster pointed out, it's not a life or death issue to not get a doll you wanted. These are luxury items not necessities of life. Sure, I sigh wistfully when I look at pictures of Soom's Azur Big Sea Sprite or Impldoll's Miguel The Demon Hunter or Unidoll's Ark, but it's not the end of the world that I didn't get them. I have a collection of dolls that I love and enjoy and not having these guys doesn't lessen/diminish the ones I do have in any way and I don't mope/bemoan over the ones that got away. There's also nothing that says I won't stumble over one of these guys in the MP someday as I've gotten limited dolls that way before. Hope springs eternal, right?

      Simply put, I don't think we should feel entitled to our entitlements.
       
      #71 Iron_Dog, May 7, 2015
    12. You're actually making several illogical assumptions about my logic.

      Firstly: what I said cannot constitute an ad hominem attack because what I stated was about what you said, not about you. Ergo, it cannot be an ad hominem attack (and really, it was not an attack of any kind, as observations and attacks are different). Now, what you attempted to do to me was ad hominem tu quoque, which is a claim that the source making the argument has spoken or acted in a way inconsistent with the argument. The reason this failed, logically, is because I did not at any time say that I should be able to access those pages, or demand that the companies produce this information for my benefit. I merely stated that not being able to get it was depressing. No company is obliged to cater to me, nor do I expect them to. Thus, the attempt at ad hominem tu quoque fails because it works upon the assumption that I said something that I did not actually say.

      Now, on-topic:

      As Kim mentioned, these companies are largely running on prepackaged software and do not employ actual webmasters. That makes it very difficult to do what you're demanding they do, as they do not have the resources to do it. babytarragon is quite right -- these artists do it because they love it. Not to make a fortune.

      This is a public discussion. It will trend in ways that you may not like, but ordering people to stop talking in a fashion that you disapprove of will not work.
       
      #72 Tez, May 7, 2015
    13. There are so many reasons a popular doll can be discontinued:
      1) it may have been sculpted by an outside artist with whom the company had a quantity limited contract (Souldoll does this often, CP took their sculpts with them when they split with Luts)
      2) the artist might not like his older works anymore and would rather replace it with an improved version as a matter of personal pride (Dollshe, SpiritDoll, ShinyDoll and Granado have cited this as a reason)
      3) the artist might not have space to store or do finishing on so many types or sizes (Cho of 5th Motif is literally discontinuing the wildly popular Timeless boys because the full shipment of casts is too much for his tiny apartment and he can't afford a separate studio space)
      4) the sculpt may have been recast and the company is forced to move on so they are not directly competing with a cheaper version (Volks SD16 boy body was discontinued as soon as DollZone knocked it off)

      Note that all of these reasons are based on a decision made by the artist. It is important for artist to feel like they have control of their work, otherwise there isn't a lot of incentive to keep creating. They are not industrial designers or expert marketing executives. They started sculpting little people because they liked sculpting little people - something humans have been doing for millennia - and someone told them they were worth selling. The task of selling is miles away from the work of creating and not everyone is suited to do both. After years of observing the BJD hobby, I'd say most BJD makers are often the last people who should be running a business, but I really really like the skill set they do have so I'm willing to put up with some frustration, especially when it's entirely self-manufactured frustration. I don't actually need that doll body to function in my daily life, so who cares if it takes a year to arrive? It took me seven years to assemble a doll to my standards and yet I was entirely unharmed in the process.
       
      #73 St. James, May 7, 2015
    14. Speaking as someone who is involved in a creative pursuit (author) and has quite a few author friends, I can fairly confidently say that more than a few of us are terrible at the sales end of things. We're far more concerned with crafting the end product and making that the best possible thing it can be. The sales/promotion end of things... *flaps hands uselessly* there's other people that are worlds better than me at that. There are people who can create and sell equally well but I think they're more the exception than the norm.
       
      #74 Iron_Dog, May 7, 2015
    15. Agreed. When even a tech-impaired artisan like myself can have a slick website thanks to a friend, there is really no way of telling just how many people are involved in a business. I like interacting with customers but I still resent the time taken away from creation that doing all of my own admin stuff requires.
       
      #75 St. James, May 7, 2015
    16. actually, I wouldn't mind knowing what product gives 50! the smooth-on stuff I get gives about 5 - 15 good ones...
       
      #76 ATYL, May 7, 2015
    17. Am I the only one who is getting rather pee-d off about doll sites leaving up sold out items? Does any one know the reasoning behind this? I've never seen them restock stuff. Has this just always been the way? I was just looking at a site and literally they only had 3 dolls for sale, the rest were all sold out. (the site had up at least 100 dolls):| I don't get this at all.
       
      #77 demisa, May 8, 2015
    18. I have no idea why sites leave sold out items on the site. I have ran into a lot of sites with that problem.
       
      #78 Crimsincuttie, May 8, 2015
    19. You can think of the sold out dolls as now being a part of the company's portfolio. They are left up because each doll was a work of art, and you don't take art out of your gallery just because it has now sold. How would people know if they liked your work if your gallery was constantly empty?
       
      #79 Adalaire, May 8, 2015
    20. That makes a very good point
       
      #80 Crimsincuttie, May 8, 2015
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