"Discontinued item" A sellers foolishness.

No, they are a store first. Now setting up a "past doll" gallery would be fine. that way on your STORE you only have what you are selling but if people wanna know what kind of work they can do they can check that out. Or even move sold out items to a "retired" section OR AT LEAST add a filter that will clear out sold out items.

Smaller stores with this issue (say a company that has only made 3 dolls or only makes one style a year) having sold out stuff left in store doesnt bug me too much but I mostly see this is major online shops. No other form of media would get away with this, even a store that sells painting and other types of art.

It's really starting to get to me.

 

http://www.denofangels.com/forums/s...rs-foolishness?highlight=seller's+foolishness This has been discussed at length here as well. There are some good comments regarding this issue here.

 

A word from my drawing/3D art teacher.....who is a sculptor (wood, resin, etc.) as well.

"A plea to non-artists on behalf of artists:
Artists do what they do after years of study, countless hours of practice, and shelling out huge sums of money for materials. They must have patience, thick - even iron-clad - skin, and be willing to do their work after getting off…well, yeah…work.
PLEASE don’t subscribe to the, what I call, “Hey, you’re an artist, right?!” mentality. “Hey, you’re an artist, right? I need a backdrop for my child’s play, a mural painted on my wall, a repair on the sculpture I bought at a yard sale, my wedding photographed, the blackboards at my business covered in chalk drawings, a sign painted for my home business, a face painter for my kid’s party! And you can use your own materials and do it for free, right?!”
I must ask; do these people also go to a university’s business department when it’s tax time? Do they email the nursing department when having a heart attack? Do they carry their television into a physics lab when it’s broken? And do they also expect the work to be free?
And when a non-artist asks this very same thing of an art student; what are they communicating to the student about the arts? That it’s not serious? That it’s just a hobby?
Of course, not every non-artist is like this. There are those who truly respect and support what we do. And to you, I give you my thanks. But a surprising number of people, professionals and blue collar workers alike, are very surprised when we say “NO!”
Being an artist is a profession like any other. Please treat it as such.
Thank you for your time and share this to help get the word out. Artists need to eat and pay rent like everyone else."

this isnt just for the "will you do it for free" it is also to say that having an entitled mentality and basically demanding things from artists just because you want it is rude, inconsiderate, and down right disrespectful. BJDs are artworks just like anything else. An artist is an artist because he/she enjoys making their artwork. Just because they decide to sell it does NOT mean that the consumer has a right to dictate how and when they sell their artwork or make it etc. Learn some R-E-S-P-E-C-T.

 

all the 'yipping' about 'get rid of it if you don't sell it anymore' BS .... there are 2 categories of not available stuff... one is "out of stock" these items are what you should expect to become available.... AT THE SELLERS TIMETABLE not yours.... getting the exact thing YOU want may not be up high on the priority list for them...

then there is the 'sold out' items... not going to be available again stuff.... too bad for you you are SOL... you have to live with it...

my argument for not taking down sale pages? simple.... if I want to find it on the secondary market I want to know it's original price and parts etc. I think of sold out items as a 'database'... There is one particular item a company made... sold and took off the web that is making me nuts because I can no longer find any reference to it to even 'look' for it on the secondary market. THAT is the biggest reason to keep the stuff up...

As far as having to sift through a site to find 'what's still for sale?'.... give me a break... look at the dang web pages... there are lots of options to 'sort' stock on most sites... Be a bit proactive and don't expect stuff to be laid out 'just for you' (that is the entitled mentality... what I want, how I want it). Their stuff, their sites, THEIR way... YOU adapt. They should not have to specialize in catering to everyone's shopping preferences. they are one we are many....

As for the sites that you can't find stuff.... please... those sites are often ALSO barely user friendly to start with... THAT is a problem but we can't tell ppl to 'drop what they are doing' (like making the stock).... and fix the site.

There are good companies that do try to accommodate the customers expectations. Even to the extent of REsculpting a doll head because 'she has walrus teeth' (IH ppl will know what that means if they've been here long enough) or they just don't like the face... Personally I find that a huge insult to the artist in the first place when it makes them REdo an entire head....the teeth thing even the company realized was bad...

Expecting a company to bend to your will to give you what YOU want and not what they want to sell? .... may as well buy a recast then because it'd just about on the same level.... Buyer greed.

These dolls are ARTWORKS! Not mass produced barbies that you can buy at any store

An artist should be able to sell their artwork as they see fit. They arent just selling their art to make money. They are selling it to share it with others because making it makes them happy

For the 'this is business so act like it thinking..... no... first it is an art form... one that has been made available to us 'through' business... The best way to kill this 'business' is to turn off the ones who create the product... which in the end is their personal form of art they choose to sell...

 

um.... how would an artist not be able to run a business? Are you saying they are stupid or something? All it takes is someone with the skill to balance a checkbook and someone else to be good at leading the other artists to stay on track and on time and account for any hiccups that can happen. And a lot of artist are perfectionistic and determined/ambitious types that have an urge to make art that is of a particular quality and standard. These types of people do fairly well in a business setting. Especially when it comes to quality control. There are some of the lower level workers (like sanders, people who box items etc.) that do miss things quality control wise, but the ones doing the bulk of the work are very likely to be business savvy. I work as a lower level worker in an office on campus at my college and I have to send out mailings daily and do filing etc. Everything I send out is IMPECCABLE because I know the people I'm sending them to are our present and possibly future customers. So this means I need to present my "business" in a particular way to gain more customers. Ever since I started working there a little over a year ago, I've heard the higher ups in the office talking about how much better the office runs since I started working there. This makes me extremely proud of the work I've done. I'm also an artist, a perfectionist, and a very ambitious person with a 3.9 GPA. So saying that you doubt artists can run a business is ridiculous in my opinion.

omg.... Do you not read what you type? Of course you sound entitled! You are missing the point... THESE ARE ARTIST DOLLS! Not mass produced barbies. They are ARTWORKS. An artist does not make art to just make money. They make art because they enjoy it. If an artist can no longer enjoy what he does, that is a really sad thing. As an artist myself, I would never ever want to work with someone like you. All I'm hearing is "I demand this, I demand that". The way an artist chooses to sell their artwork is up to the artist.

Also, this whole thing with the molds, all you've been talking about so far is using the molds longer... but what about the cost of the resin? What about the junk casts that dont work and wasted money in that? Like the ones with air bubbles or the ones that didnt cast all the way? Resin is NOT cheap. Also most of these dolls are made places that weather can affect a cast very easily. Sure they probably use pressurizer machines to get the bubbles out and might have a fairly climate controlled work area, but it can still cause problems. I've seen posts on here about companies having to discontinue tans and darker colors for a short period of time due to weather and other casting issues.

oh and lets not forget mixing the colors. This is a lot harder with darker resins especially if you are trying to prevent marbling etc. And when adding more pigment to get a darker color, this can affect the quality of the resin so that it doesnt cure properly.

You may think you have enough casting experience to "make a doll", but the way you say this makes it sound like anyone could make one of these dolls if they know how to mold and cast silicon and resin. NOT TRUE. It takes a lot of patience, trial and error, and TIME. As a business, with how much work is involved, doing what you say by keeping things in stock all the time could mean that these ARTISTS never have time to take a break. They'd be constantly pumping out dolls, wasting a lot of resin and money and time for things that might not sell... like, what about people who order a doll and then cancel the purchase part way through them being made? What about that huh?

Please just go back under the rock you crawled out from.

 

I'm over all the excuses for 'artists' to be free to follow bad business practices. I'm so sorry, sure they can do that if they want but they shouldn't be surprised when customers complain. Cause let me give a hint to sellers - artists or not - if the buyers are upset, if they are being insulted when they make suggestions (as in being called, let's see, having an entitled mentality and basically demanding things from artists just because you want it) they won't BUY the goods!

Now trying to justify buying recasts cause a company won't or can't lower prices, do the customizations one wants, etc etc - well that's just making up excuses for stealing. Artists definitely deserve respect for the art they create.

 

Artists dont want business from those type of people anyway so, I dont care? I'd rather have customers that appreciate what I'm doing on top of trying to run a business. Sure it isnt good to have a website your customers cant navigate, but these bad business practices I'm hearing about are not bad business practices to me. Being able to choose when you sell things or discontinue them IS NOT bad business. It is selling ARTWORK. Artwork is not mass produced is it? A coffee mug is no longer a piece of art when everyone has one in their cupboard at home using it for their morning coffee. Sorry not sorry.

 

At least know the basics of the hobby please.

Just this... not a 'pattent' but a copywrite... they have them.... and the definitely DO go after recasters.... this forum shut down on person who stole doll owners pictures and claimed them as his... Some of the bigger companies hope you let them know of recasters. Yes find one kill it and 2 more appear... but it is done...

Below is an notice posted on IH site:

[TABLE="class: view-board mt15, width: 771"]
[TR]
[TH="class: p-tit bg-none, colspan: 6"]Notice on illegal recast dolls.[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Written by[/TH]
[TD]en_manager[/TD]
[TH]Search[/TH]
[TD]6,227[/TD]
[TH]Date[/TH]
[TD]2014-03-28 15:56[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]
Hello, this is Iplehouse.
We would like to announce you about illegal recast doll companies.
We are composed of small group of artists.
To make products what customers want, and develop products,
we are always doing our best to listen carefully about your opinion,
and all our items are made by our passion, and efforts.
Recently, there were many illegal sales on Taobao,Ebay,and Auction.
As BJD markets are very limited field, the side effect of illegal recast doll sales really hits original doll companies.
Since customers know what is going on now,
they are reporting many illegal sites to us, and that is really helpful.
Thanks to those help, we finally got our copy right, and we have right to protect our dolls.
We are not going to allow any illegal acts, and are going to be really strict about this.
We are not only planning to sue people who help those illegal companies, and illegal recasters,
but also block any illegal sales on Taobao, Ebay, and Auction.
We are already collecting some proofs from KOTRA(Korea Trade-Investment Promotion Agency),
and preparing reports for FBI basing on those proofs.
We are going to fight with those illegal companies,
and not going to allow them to sell illegal products.
We really thank you for supporting us.
We are always going to try hard to become better Iplehouse. [/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

It is possible to respect the artist and company and still have an opinion like "it would be nice if". That's not the same as demanding stuff or not respecting or insulting an artist. It's just a suggestion and an opinion - not a personal attack on the artists who are of course allowed to do whatever they want. As I see it respect goes two ways and a person should of course respect the artist but there should also be respect shown when people are simply offering a suggestion.

 

Yes I agree, but someone on here I believe is being a little too demanding and "they should be able to do this because I said so" based on the responses and information they have posted... which to me is unacceptable. The way I've read it is they are complaining about things they have only partial information on based on their own experience and have not thought about the influences of a different culture and way of life or how things are run in the countries who make most of these dolls. I find it despicable that they have shown a clear lack of respect for a quite ancient way of life. Our western world is much younger than the cultures of where these dolls originated. I think they know by now what works and what doesnt for their particular way of life. This is not just concerning the topic of making dolls, but their businesses in general. Also, like I've stated and others have stated, these artists arent out to make a company they can sell stock for on the stock market. They are in the business of making ART that people will love because they love it and want to share it. Yes of course they'd want money to cover their overhead and pay their employees, but I think this person is missing the deeper meaning behind why they chose to make these dolls in the first place.

 

I haven't actually seen ANYONE on here demanding anything - I've seen some very wise business suggestions being described incorrectly as being entitled, tho. Again, artist or not, if you want to actually make a PROFIT by attracting buyers & selling your work, then it's good to either have a savvy business advisor or be one yourself. Or starve in your attic waiting for worthy buyers. Whatever.

 

This plea on behalf on artists is well said, The Raven. I, too, am an artist - and on several occasions throughout the years, have experienced exactly the scenario described, with people requesting artwork at the drop of a hat for some event or project - and expecting it all super quick - and gratis. The other "classic" scenario I have personally experienced is people wanting paintings for almost nothing - desiring complicated art AND also elaborately framed - but for a laughably low fee - as if my time were not valuable, and art and framing supplies not expensive (which they are).

Artists - like everyone else who works for a living - like to be paid for their work - and paid appropriately, and with a realistic time frame to complete said work.

Mind you, my comment here does not really address the topic of an artist run business that creates dolls and doll related products - I am only responding to The Raven's previous quotation about how some folks (thankfully, not everyone) interact with artists.

Speaking for myself: I'm an independent artist who works entirely on my own, with everything I create being "one of a kind". I'm also a writer, with a goal to eventually publish the novel I'm working on. But in order to make ends meet, I also work hard running a collectibles business with my husband, as at this time, art and writing alone won't pay our bills. As a small self-employed business, we have a sound knowledge of our market, with strong ethics, and work hard to provide unique and interesting collectibles, as well as excellent customer service, and are therefore able to make a decent living at what we do, although it isn't easy. Obviously any business - whether it's a BJD company, or a small self-employed business like ours - needs to keep an eye on making a profit, as well as attracting (and keeping) customers by providing a desirable product, and great customer service. That would also include being savvy to your particular market, and being open to suggestions / requests from your customer base.

Although, for anything art related, realistically it's not always possible to make much of a profit (sometimes, you only come out even, if that). And yes, while we artists like making money as much as the next person, ultimately, many of us do it for the love of our art - but a decent profit is also a fine goal, and much needed.

Anyway, being self-employed, we are always very, very busy - so it's only in my "down" time, such as it is, that I work on my art and writing. With that in mind, I really don't have the time or interest anymore in creating gratis art for people - unless, of course, I decide on my own to gift a friend with an artwork.

 

I feel that perhaps in a written conversation it's easy for misunderstandings to happen. So things that might come across as harsh to one person isn't necessarily meant that way when written. Heh, I don't know how the stuff I write come across when read by others by I assure everyone every word written is meant to be read as calm, open and friendly

I know how BJDs are made and understand the difference in culture, and for that reason I also feel it is understandable that we sometimes don't necesarily think the same way in these discussions since even in the western world there are differences in culture. I do agree it's important to be polite and respect differences in culture.

I personally have experience as an artist on several fields including sculpting. I get suggestions too at times which I sometimes agree on and sometimes don't. If I don't like a suggestion I politely say "thanks for the suggestion but I'm still going to do it the way I originally planned" and I imagine the BJD companies and artists will also say no if they don't want to change something

 

This reminds me a lot of the arguments between my artist mother and business minded step-father. She paints for the joy of creating and occasionally sells or gives away if she feels like it. He gets upset because he sees wasted opportunities. He frets over why she won't just stick to a specific formula of: "people want item X from you, keep making item X, sell for a big profit". She, having a mind similar to most artists, only wants to create what she what is in her. It's not about selling or making what is popular to others. It is only about creating. As for older works that she no longer wants, I've actually seen her destroy them if they are no longer her taste. Sadly, she became so frustrated about his views, she basically gave up on her art. She hated him constantly looking over her shoulder and judging what she was doing. It was too stressful. I do wonder how many sculptors out there have completely left the creating side of this hobby for the same basic reason of people constantly complaining about what they were or were not doing. Art does not always get along with business.

 

But most artist-run BJD companies don't have terrible business practices, IMO. Not perfect, not Western, but not bad. BJD companies often give awesome personalized service that make you feel like part of their extended family. It's part of what makes it fun to buy BJDs!

Also, I haven't seen any BJD artists insulting their customers and calling them entitled. That seems to be a discussion limited to this thread.

 

Oh that was probably me, I'm a dealer, not an artist, sorry if that caused confusion.

 

I was specifically addressing those posters who were discussing a few companies who could improve their business practices, and those ON THIS THREAD being upset about that. Period. I in no way implied that BJD companies as a whole have bad business practices, nor that those artists were insulting anyone.

In my experience, most creative persons need a savvy business manager to make money from their art (or else they need a mundane job).

 

It's all well and good to make polite suggestions out of a desire to see a favorite company succeed, and I have written my fair share of letters to BJD companies over the years, but sometimes it just isn't possible for them to make those changes. An individual artisan who doesn't even have enough of a profit margin to rent studio space isn't going to be able to hire a business manager. At best they can have sales reps like babytarragon who devote their spare time out of a dedication to the hobby and the artist. It's very risky to quit one's day job and commit all of one's time to promoting a venture in a saturated niche market. Many artists have trouble justifying this risk when they have families to support. I just don't see how calling an artist or small atelier foolish or inept in a forum thread that they can read is going to get anywhere positive. :/

 

This!! I feel like I've wasted so many words in this thread when actually this is all that needed to be said.

There are two Korea based sculptors and one Japanese based sculptor that I have contact with that I know are browsing this forum on a regular basis, and all of them run a 'company' which really is more like self employment. The use of the word 'foolish' seemed unnecessary.

 

I know a few artists who are savvy biz ppl, and more than a few artists who are married to savvy biz ppl (or come from them), but most of us do have day jobs. For years, I worked as a designer/commissioned artist; and as much as I dream that one day my art could provide primary financial support and allow me to devote my time to meaningful pro bono work, frankly, it's much easier and simpler to have an unrelated job that pays the bills. I don't have to worry about if the pieces I make will sell, or will sell enough, or if I'm "selling out" catering to my patrons/galleries/etc., making things that are commercially viable. Referencing the plea on behalf of artists above, and the comments on demands of artists - at least when I sell pieces of my soul now in my day job, I'm reasonably compensated for it... (though I don't think the value of my soul has changed) Plus, nobody would accuse me of being a bad biz person if I refused to increase my editions or use bright pinks in my brown paintings or make more snowy landscape photos or whatever to cater to the prospective buyer's whim.

THANK YOU!