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Does 'historical background' of a doll bother you.

Jul 1, 2011

    1. Godwin's law is about conversations degenerating into a comparison to Hitler, not starting with that comparison. It doesn't imply that Hitler must never be mentioned, as your post seems to suggest, just that he's often used as a cheap, inappropriate response as a conversation declines.

      This is also a good example of the fact that a long dead war hero (or villain, depending on perspective) or symbols of a war can continue to bring up strong feelings in the descendants of those who fought in or were affected by a war. There is no one still alive who fought in the US Civil War, but the confederate flag still has strong symbolic value both north and south of the Mason-Dixon line, as do the names of the generals mentioned above. And I doubt that naming a school in the south after Ulysses Grant would go over so well.

      Antipathy within and between countries can go on for centuries. Even though the persons initially affected are long gone, stories are handed down from generation to generation, and bad feelings persist. As a child I learned from my immigrant parents what the nation that colonized their home country hundreds of years ago did to my family-- killed some, starved others, took away their land, etc. And the people who did so are viewed as heroes in their own country. Plenty of hard feelings there, although everyone involved has long since turned to dust.

      Having said all that, I don't believe in censoring, but I do believe in circumspection. IMO, Volks is not in the wrong to release a doll of Masamune Date-- in Japan. But hopefully they will be more sensitive when it comes to Korea. I am sure they are smart enough to recognize that most Koreans see history differently than the Japanese, even though on one living was personally involved in those events.
       
    2. Can you provide an information about it? I have never heard about Korea invading Japan so I'm concerned/curious/want to know about it.

      I realised there are people who think that emotion fades away as time passes ... I have to say Korea's relationship with Japan and the way Korean emotionally deal with those troubles is quite different from what other countries do, because it is still unresolved. Japanese still go to shrines where those soldiers who have killed thousands and thousands people in such manner of disrespect is buried. Even long after till now they didn't say proper sorry to women who were raped 'in convenience' during wartime. I have heard it is not just Korean but some of Netherlanders and some women from other countries that I can't remember at the moment, were involved in this tragic incidence.

      However, what Japan trying is hiding reality. That is what makes Koreans go angry in this kind of situation, where japan companies tries to 'bleach' their 'disgrace'. That is why I'm very concerned about release of Date Masamune BJD.

      I want to say if I or some of our DOA member who were concerned about this issue didn't bring it up as an 'issue' here, majority of people wouldn't have cared that Date can be considered as a bloody invader in someone's history. I wanted more people recognise this.
       
    3. Around 300 years prior, Korea tried to invade Japan. It's where the origin of the term kamikaze comes from, as the full scale invasion never went under way because the Korean ships where destroyed en masse by storms, thus, a divine wind came and saved the Japanese. I don't know all of the particulars off the top of my head, but it's a story that's stuck with me from my Japanese history classes.

      Actually, I am sure plenty of people who are interested in or fans of Date Masamune did know about his involvement with the Korean invasion, but again, they were not bothered by it. I certainly knew his history before I started watching Sengoku Basara.

      I understand that Japan and Korea have had a tenuous relationship thanks to what happened during WW2, but it seems like you are combining the two time periods in your posts. I understand there being hard feelings based on WW2 as that is something that happened much more recently that has affected people living, but Date certainly was not involved with WW2. He has a shrine because he is a revered Japanese warlord, played an important part in their history, and is a hero to the people from where he lived. I don't see how Volks is trying to rewrite history by releasing a doll of him.
       
    4. Lelite has summed up most of what I think about this topic. As far as tasteless promotions of dolls as mass murderers go, I think Dollmore has already cornered the market on that one. There was quite an uproar about that the first time, but now no one seems to care and Dollmore hasn't stopped depicting their new releases as bombers and whatnot. Perhaps it's the specificity of the killer in Date's case? He's more in the distant past than Jack the Ripper, though, so I can only assume that patriotism is the actual issue, not killing.

      It is occasionally difficult for me to separate a doll's backstory from the doll. I love love love Volks' Amakusa, but I've passed on the opportunity to buy him multiple times because each time it was a fullset and I just couldn't get myself to buy a Catholic martyr. But I also understand that Volks is really making these dolls for the rather insular Japanese market, so how I feel about it really doesn't matter much.
       
    5. Edited by me due to typo x.x sorry for apalling English


      So Kim, can you provide an page like wikipedia containing that information. I am not quite convinced if you just say something you remember because again I have never heard about Korea invading Japan. I couldn't find convincing document when I googled it either. I can provide informations of Japan attempting invasion in 1592-1598 and recent in 1900s if you wish, and they are on internet everywhere if you just google it.

      I am not mixing periods, but instead I'm just reasoning the reaction of Korean BJD owners. This Date Masamune and Japanese invasions of Korea (1592–1598) and Korea under Japanese rule are two separate issue here.

      And shrines is another separate issue that explains the hatred feeling of Korean towards Japan. Not so related to Date issue. I'm sorry if I made mix up with it and made you misunderstood it, and I'm sorry if I was very off-topic.

      This having 'BJD-and-similar-'anime'-dolls' as a hobby, I believe, makes some people to be close to Asian culture as they come from one, interestingly very much from Japanese cultural background. When I'm looking through these piles of thread on DOA, I see lots of people have an interest in Japanese language, culture related to Anime and all other sorts. With this small company Volks-Volks is a small company compared to other gigantic companies-, they already made people to love the part of them. Then why wouldn't I be worried that there will be people who might learn that Date is a cool figure made into a doll, hero from Japan, 'OMG', not knowing that Date is a historic figure, not knowing what he had done in past -even that is thousands years before-? Why can I say no I am bothered and and don't think it is good idea to release a doll with his name?

      If you and other people are not one inch bothered I can't force you to be. That is your opinion and it is your right to have it. But just consider in your mind that there are many people who are bothered. I have heard that one of big website like DOA for Korean owners, are mailing Volks about it with concern.
       
    6. Please don't mistake my apathy for ignorance. :lol: I've educated myself well enough in the history of "my" country. I also took the time to look at the same history through the perspective of the other side, took note of the pretty awful things that my country's supposed heros did, and came to the conclusion that I don't care for nationality; in the case of war, every side is the guilty side, and a lot of innocent people die in each, directly or indirectly. It's the abstract concept of the value of human life and the tragedy of it's loss that's important to me, not necessarily where and when specific examples took place (generally. Sometimes it is important). As a child I've been told plenty of stories featuring the most evil and wicked of mongols, later on joined by the villainous white army, sometimes together, the poor, poor innocent people they've cruelly murdered and the dashing good heros who kicked their collective behind and sent them cowering. As a child, I believed it, and held some pretty fierce hate against the supposed "bad guys", but as I got older I realized that picking sides was stupid, especially when everyone has a massive cache of skeletons in their closet. What further strengthens my view is that very, very few people worship/idolize specific war heros of their country (like Alexander the Great in the West) because of all of the people they've killed. They generally admire the positive, inspiring characteristics, like being a charismatic, powerful leader of a HUGE group of people who rose from nothing and forged an empire out of his own blood and sweat.

      So I guess this huge rant mostly amounts as an explanation to "No, I don't care for historical background of the doll character the company gives on national level, but I do on a moral level". I wouldn't support someone making a doll of Jack the Ripper, because s/he murdered a bunch of innocent women, and that's the only thing s/he's famous for. Or, well, I'd find it a bit tasteless and wouldn't buy it.

      That being said, I do understand that this Date thing is a slightly different case, because it's not just a matter of what happened 400 years ago, but how it carries on to more recent things between Japan and the rest of East Asia. I'm fully aware of the fact that the Japanese did some pretty horrific things during their invasions, and I understand that they're fresh wounds that haven't healed yet, especially considering Japan's extraordinary liking for burying heads in sand and pretending nothing happened.

      But I also don't think Volks meant any insult or offense to anyone else internationally by creating a doll of their own national hero - who they view in a positive light. I'll admit, if they were to do a Korean Dollpa and be all like "Hey guess what gais! Guess who's back!" that would be pretty tactless and downright terrible.

      Incidentally, this discussion further leads to people's perception of company-assigned doll backgrounds in general, not just in a historical sense. I ordered a little Soom MD because I thought he was the cutest thing ever, but I remember in the discussion someone stated something along the lines of being offended/upset that they made a demon, because demons/The Devil are evil and bad (I assume they were Christian). This also echos through some of the other horned/hooved dolls that have been put out, when the very religious people started some kind of talk of being scared/offended/upset at the demonic dolls, and wanting the company to stop making demonic dolls because they wanted the dolls but refused to buy because they were "bad".
       
    7. I'm sorry Lelite if I sounded like I was making comment that you are ignorant ^^; I just wanted to say in general because there will be people who are ignorant about the issue. And I do have to agree that it's a matter of one's perspective on the history. I respect that you don't want to pick a side as you think it is pointless, and I understand that no matter how I argue about it here, it wouldn't change much in the world. I like that you said that "everyone has a massive cache of skeletons in their closet" because it is quite true. Koreans do have the flaws too ...

      I'll be at least less concerned if Date Masamune is not going to be released in Korea. Hope to hear from Volks soon ^^
       
    8. Ah, don't worry. I'll admit it was your comment that made me think of it, but I realized that it was possible to interpret it that way so I decided to be, er, safe. Or to elaborate further. Something like that, yes.

      Well, they generally release their Japanese-inspired in Japan, but they are known to re-use the sculpt in one-offs following a completely different theme (like, Victorian tea-time, or modern-day story, or something like that).

      I guess the other side of this also really depends on the people who buy the doll - some people primarily look at the sculpt and disregard the company character as long as it suits their needs. Others stock more weight into it. Me, personally, I primarily look at the sculpt, but I do get an extra kick in the buying direction (or away from...) based on the doll's story. Like, my Lami - I got him to be a little dream daemon. Then I saw that Soom wrote the two little devils as transforming into things like shoes and other objects, and thought it was a funny and likable coincidence since my own plans also involved something about transforming into inanimate objects. Ultimately, however, if I really like the sculpt I'd get it. If someone was planning on a Shinsengumi doll, they could pick up Hijikata or Okita(s), and voila, already have the uniform all ready too. It can be pretty neat, and can encourage people to spend their money - and not necessarily because they want or like the company's character 100%, but because it further adds to their needs.
       
    9. Korea was part of the Mongol invasions of Japan.

      Japan's war heroes killed a lot of people. Korea's war heroes killed a lot of people. Heck, one of my biggest heroes--my granddad--killed lots of people in his WWII fighter plane. The unfortunate reality of war is that heroics are most often measured by the number of kills. So unless one is opposed to any doll of any war hero ever, it's a bit difficult for me to understand why one would be so upset by the Date doll.
       
    10. I think St James has a good point here about the taste factor, and especially about the matter of specificity. A fictional killer is something considerably different from one that exists in history. I personally have no issue with a company creating either -- it's their right to do so -- but I think it's also entirely reasonable for people to have personal objections to them doing so.

      This calls to mind a series of films made about serial killers by a certain director. (Bear with me a second here.) I can watch horrible things without flinching, and had seen actual documentaries on the case in question with crime scene photos and all the graphic content involved. I'd read the story, knew what happened, and so on. The gag reflex is strong with this one, needless to say. However, when this director created a film based on the killings, he really appeared to be making a 'murder porn' style film. As pure fiction? Whatever -- it won't have my interest, but my gut response is a whopping 'whatever' to such things. The difference here, to me, was that not only were the victims depicted real people, but real people very likely with living relatives out there in the world today -- parents, siblings, children. I was, in a nutshell, seriously nauseated at the gross disregard for those people demonstrated by the director, people who had already been victimized by the real case, and refuse to watch anything he has a hand in to this day, because I find the choice to do what he'd done utterly repugnant. Did the director have a right to do it? Yeah, he did. I also reserve the right to consider him lower than something spewed out the hind end of a mangy dog. So while I don't have the same gut reaction here, I can definitely understand how someone can and could, and don't remotely begrudge them that feeling.
       
    11. I guess this is just an issue of culture differences. I came to Australia when I was 15 and I come from a Chinese culture background and I can understand how different people perceive about wars. Like Chinese history, Japanese history consist of many civil wars and conflicts. And there many classical fictions (and they are just the most wonderful classical literature) based on wars.

      These stories are just passing down through so many generations. The basic concept about these stories are not how wonderful war or killing people is (like the modern concept). Most of them are about loyalty, courage and war strategy.

      Of course, there are little known behind unpleasant facts about these war heroes. However, after so many generations of fictions and stories, Date is more about a frictional figure based on a little bit of history. He is more of a person with great courage and ambition. Just like when people in England talk about Arthur the king or Merlin.

      So I really don't see how inappropriate is for Volks to release such a figure. I'm so looking forward to it ! ^^
       
    12. Agreed.

      That is essentially what war is about, killing as much of the other side as you can. And every country has engaged in it, either within it's own borders against it's own people or abroad. I mean some of the people who created or had created some of the most popular pieces of art, architecture, and music, were also some of the most ruthless warlords, or brilliant war strategist. Even Vlad the Impaler wasn't all bad, and did his best to rebuild his country, and protect it from invading forces. Yeah he got a little crazy...okay a lot of crazy, but if you ever get a chance to do some research about the kind of environment he grew up in, you can see why. The history channel had a really nice piece on the Tsars of Russia. The wonderful thing about time and history is that it affords us the opportunity to look back at things differently, and not just with a lens of passion and emotion, but perspective. The way I see it, if Japan wants to make a doll about a person they regard as a war hero, then it's there right to do so, because I'm sure even with all the horrible things he did, he obviously did great things for the betterment of his country. I don't know much about Korean history but it probably has it's share of war heros as well.
       
    13. I'm actually more offended by the fact that some people seem to think they have the right to tell someone else they're not allowed to celebrate their own hero. If Date is a hero to the Japanese, why aren't the Japanese allowed to love him and make a doll of him?
       
    14. You make a fine point with that atrocities are atrocities regardless how much personal connection you have with them, but you seem to contradict yourself by saying that it is lesser when there are no living witnesses to recount the atrocities. A hundred years from now the things we think are horrible historical events will still be horrible historical events.

      But to come back to the personal attachment that I mentioned: If a doll company made a Pol Pot doll, it would make me frown and think it is a questionable choice, because I know it will upset a lot of people. Yet what happened in Cambodia in the 70’s is something I read in a history book and not something I have a personal tie with. I’m not saying it does not touch me, but the closer to home, the more it hurts.
      The number of survivors currently alive does not make what happened any less or more horrible, but how much personal ties you have with it influences how much you are personally affected by it.
       
    15. I don't quite understand your point sailorstarsun, if anyone can be one's hero, why can't Hitler be? why is neonazis inappropriate to modern day society? ^^;; What about pol pot Muisje mentioned? Such person can be heros proved to be a model figure, possibly a doll like in this case, if they are in one country?

      And thank you for the information anbaachan, but I do not agree that it's a matter of one invading one, after reading through that page, as that wasn't the intention of Korea purely because Korea at that time was made to do that by Mongol. They had to follow to survive. Stated in wikipedia too. And any doll-making company made the warriors at that time as a doll did they? Did Korean said they are proud of Goryeo people who were invading people without reason? ^^; Did they make drama about it? Anime?
       
    16. That shrine you're talking about is the Yasukuni Jinja. And it is a real pity, because it was founded to honor the dead of both sides in the Meiji Revolution, as a symbol of reconciliation. Then it went on to house the kami of soldiers fallen in subsequent wars, including war criminals (and, one supposes, many more people who just were conscripted and died in the war). I can get behind the original concept (as I like historical figures in both sides of the Bakumatsu), I understand its use as a "Tomb of the Unknown Soldier" kind of thing, but the deification of war criminals and its use by uyoku dantai groups is beyond the pale. I can only hope that Japan gets finally around to face their war crimes, and it's a national disgrace that they're still denying their wartime atrocities.

      That said, could you please point us to Date Masamune's alleged atrocities? I haven't been able to find anything that sets him apart from the generals of his time. And speaking as someone from a country that has been also invaded a few times and has invaded other people in turn, "person X invaded my country" isn't enough to make me outraged about them. Even going back to more modern times, you can have some measure of respect and admiration for people like the Red Baron (who was buried with honor by his enemies when he finally died in combat in WWI) or even Erwin Rommel, of whom *Winston Churchill* himself said the following:

      By which I want to say, it's not enough for someone to be in the "evil" army to be reviled, and you can find respect for your enemies as long as they conduct themselves with honor.
       
    17. It is acceptable that Date was a person who made sendai as what sendai recently is, but it is wrong that people are maybe glorifying it. I can respect him as a historic figure long as he stays as a general of the time. I researched to find informations about Imjin war that he was involved in 1500s and I understand that he might not be that evil as some dictators in world's history. In fact he was not that different from other generals of Japan as you mentioned in your reply sukeban. He was maybe unlucky to get involved in war because he wasn't a favourite of Hideyoshi Doyotomi. I wasn't able to find proper English page that explains what Date and other warriors did in Jinju castle, only some Korean pages that says 'Japanese soldiers showed no mercy and killed people, not just Goryeo soldiers but women and children, overall 60000 people.' Google translates it so badly so I wouldn't recommend it.

      Again, what I am saying is that if he wasn't to be made as a doll, any of this wouldn't be a problem for me! Why that dolls name couldn't be any made up? I am worrying that the fact, the history, can fade because we manipulate. Some extend it might be helpful to get interest out of people, but if it is overdid ...

      ... Are you aware of Hetalia? And that there are people saying that they have learnt all their History from that? ^^; That kind of thing happens and I'm worried that Date BJD might do the same thing on people.
       
    18. Have you ever consider that Date Masamune may have had to do the same?
      Or are you suggesting that he, as a Japanese, should have gone against his government, angered it and given up his life (and any subsequent good he may have done for his country) for Koreans? Why is it okay for Korean's to be forced to attempt an invasion for their survival? And not Date to be forced to follow his orders?

      I LOVE history, and love the discussion this doll has brought up. I love that people are looking into and reading about it and learning. I just would really like to see you show the same courtesy to others in the discussion and also look at this from the Japanese point of view. He did a lot for them, and is important to their history. You don't really seem to care about them- so why should they have to care about you? (Not meaning to be rude, but I personally feel that I shouldn't expect something of others if they can't expect it of me.)

      Besides, anyone interested in this doll historically who is not part of the target market (Japan) is likely to know about his history. Anyone else who buys it likely only wants it for it's looks, not it's history and as such it probably wont really matter what the historical figure did.
       
    19. I personally like Hetalia, but I'm not touching the fandom with a 10-foot pole. It is scary ^_^;;

      But I got my interest in the Bakumatsu period from fangirling Rurouni Kenshin over 10 years ago (and I got to read a lot from that interest, including personal accounts of the period like Joseph Heco's diaries or Isabella Bird's narrative of her travels in Japan in 1878), so I can understand how a work like Hetalia might get people interested in history.

      That said, Hetalia itself isn't that off the mark, at least when it comes to European history. We frankly do a lot worse job of stereotyping one another in popular culture, and it's not the first comic to poke fun at national stereotypes: here in Europe, one of the most well known Bandes Désinées is Astérix, about a village of Gauls resisting Julius Caesar's legionnaries, and it derives *a lot* of its humor from anachronistic stereotypes of French people (in Asterix and the Banquet, for example, which is mostly a tour of the different provinces of France) and other Europeans (Asterix and the Goths, ... in Britain, ... in Spain, ...in Switzerland, ...and the Olympic Games, and so on). So, frankly, Himaruya isn't doing anything that we haven't been already doing to each other. For a long time.

      (Oh, and in the Asterix comics, Julius Caesar, even if he's the nominal villain, is still a badass and honourable general and a Worthy Opponent. The gaulish village even take care of his son Caesarion in Asterix and Son, and the obligatory last-panel banquet features the gauls celebrating with Caesar and Cleopatra in their barge)
       
    20. Maybe Hitler is someone's hero. And if that person wants to make a doll of him, that's their prerogative. They have the right to do so. And I don't at all see what neonazis have to do with anything, so I won't comment on that, except that if they want to make dolls for their neonazi club, they can have at it.

      I've been thinking, and I think the reason one group of people trying to boss around another group of people, that has nothing to do with them, bothers me is because it rings an awfully familiar bell. Koreans trying to tell a Japanese company what they can or can not, or should or should not do, on a scale like this, feels to me - and this may be a way off base feeling, who knows? - a lot like the gay marriage debate going on in America. A bunch of bigots are offended by homosexuals, so are trying to prevent them from getting married. And we argue, if you don't like gay marriage, don't marry a gay person. If you don't like a doll made in Japan, don't buy the doll. But just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's wrong. To someone else (gays, Japan, neonazis) it's perfectly right.

      That's just my feelings, is all.

      I'd also like to know, is there a Volks store in Korea? If there is, and they release the doll there... well, they'll find none being sold and lesson learned. But if the only way for Koreans to get the doll is by buying it internationally and bringing it into the country themselves, how is it Volks's fault if any end up in Korea? Or do you want them taken from the international stores altogether? But how is that fair to the Americans, Canadians, Cubans, Russians, etc. who want one? What if there's a Korean person, in Korea, who really doesn't care about what happened 400 years ago, and just really really wants this pretty doll? Why should she lose out because one group of people decided they didn't want the doll in Korea?

      In conclusion, I don't get the point of this letter writing campaign. I don't see where it'll do anything for anyone. All it'll accomplish is selfishly making hard feelings.


      Also:

      Why does it have to be? For your sake?