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Does 'historical background' of a doll bother you.

Jul 1, 2011

    1. Yet, by saying what I quoted above, it seems clear that you are conflicted on this notion -- that national pride should be set aside until the disaster is contained. Which makes no sense.

      There certainly are other ways for them to do so. And they do face the danger of offending some customers by releasing the doll. That is their risk to take. They have to accept the consequences of that choice. That is what many people have stated before in this thread. It may be that many people are offended by the doll and will not buy it, and may choose to never buy from Volks again because they chose to make it. That is their consequence to suffer if it happens, because of their choice. That is the danger they face.

      It is their choice to face that or not. You cannot choose for them. You can make them aware of your feelings, as can others. No one is saying you can't do so, or that you cannot have those feelings.

      The problem is, that is where it ends. Your choice, their choice, everybody gets one.

      And again, they will have to deal with the consequences if many customers decide this is in poor taste or insensitive of them. It will hit their profits in the long run, and if it is all they are concerned about -- which I strongly doubt is the case for any of the companies out there -- they will sit up and take notice. It really is that simple.
       
    2. I'm going to be frank here. You're coming off as awfully racist against the Japanese. You're sounding like all of Japan owes you something, and they don't. There is nothing for you to let go of, because nobody did anything to you. If you don't like the doll, don't buy it, but quit acting like you're so much holier than everyone else. Saying you would be uncomfortable with anyone who owned the doll, even if they turned it into a completely different character, says a lot more about you than it does them.

      Saying a doll company shouldn't produce a doll named after someone meaningful to them who lived 400 years ago because the government didn't apologize for something that happened 65 years ago is ridiculous. Date Masamune is not a "fresh wound," and all not letting go is going to do is make you a hateful person. There's a difference between learning about and respecting history, and using it for some kind of entitlement.

      In conclusion, no, I'm not bothered by historical representation dolls. I'm not so full of myself to think history owes me anything, and if someone wants to make a doll of someone they admire, be it a warrior, nazi, or terrorist, it's none of my concern. :daisy
       
    3. That there are many victims of earthquake does not mean a company can ignore the fact there are people at unease. It is still brushing off.

      If someone is not approving of other historical figure made into a doll they can claim that they don't like it. Isn't that simple? They can claim and make people know that they don't like the idea of the person made into a doll because of the reason they believe seem to be inappropriate to them. They might bring people to be aware the fact. If that doll is still made, other who are interested can buy it. But I can say that I won't. I wouldn't care if the others buy, but I can claim to the company that I find it inappropriate and please consider my opinion. If they think it is understandable they will act, if they don't there's nothing more can be done. So I'm trying what I can as a customer.
       

    4. But you're not just informing the company that you find it inappropriate. You're telling a large, online community that they should find it inappropriate too.

      For what it's worth, I don't think that you're going to have any luck telling Volks that they're being insensitive in making a doll of someone who's been dead since Oliver Cromwell was just a run-of-the-mill member of parliament (Now there's a controversial figure!). People don't have magical racial memories stretching back through the centuries that make them feel every insult to Their People (TM) as if it was a fresh wound today. Once it's out of living memory (As in, nobody is alive who has ever met someone who was there), I reckon, it's fair game.
       
    5. So I said I wouldn't have a luck, I'm also aware ^^;

      I'm not trying to be a racist, I'm sorry if I sounded like one. I'm not holier or anything, just expressing that some ideas might be disturbing.
      Even if I do find it uneasy to see the doll, would people who buy the doll care that I might have some opinion about them? I don't really think so. I'm just a passing-by person to them. I wouldn't blame them out loud when I face one.

      Japan owe not me but Korea, and I still think it should be discussed, but not in here. I just thought it might be helpful to let others know my perspective, stating the fact that I'm aware, but I have grandly failed I guess. I thought about bringing newer war up, to make a claim that the start of historic figure like Date might lead to more extreme figures. I apologise for my horrific use of words.
       
    6. Very interesting discussion!

      I hadn't heared about this Date Masamune release from Volks and I'm not sure if I'm surprised or not. And, yes Volks are surely aiming this doll at the Japanese market but we live in the age of the internet - it's not like it's not going to be seen by the international BJD community. I assume they made the judgement that it does upset some people it won't be enough to put a long term dint in their profits.

      I think its a given that dolls based on real people, espcially prominant historical figures have the potential to be contraversial. Personally, I am happy if someone wants to create their own doll of Masumune, Hitler, Cromwell, Dahmer, whoever. It's not necesarilly bad taste if it's not glorifying them and they're not shoving that doll in other people's faces and expecting them to be cool with it. Declaring certain subjects as off limits because they're controversial is much more offensive to me as a believer in free expression/discussion and avoiding knee-jerk reactions.
      However, when it's a historical doll made for general release by a company, I find that a little stranger. An individual making a doll for their own purposes is one thing, but selling that figure as a package, as something desirable is different. These figures like Masumune become symbolic, idealised and packaged to consumers and the real, complex history can be lost along the way.
      For that reason, I'm wary of commercially available historical dolls, but not dolls made by individuals.

      Oh, I wasn't aware of this, I'll have to look into it! What exactly did they do?
       
    7. Interesting topic...
      It only causes potential conflict if you interact with them differently because they have the doll. But since you openly admitted that it could effect your feelings towards the dolls' owners, then you are telling people how you feel and are opening yourself up to have it commented on. I can completely understand why this particular doll would not appeal to you, and I have absolutely no problems with that. I do think, however, that you need to look at the situation beyond Japanese/Korean relations. There seems to be a good deal more to this figure than that, and many other reasons why a company would choose to produce this doll and why other people would choose to buy him. If it was not intended (and yes intention does play a big part in these things) to be a comment on Japan and Korea's history together, then there is no reason to harbor hard feelings about it. It is nearly impossible to have a historic figure that did not upset one group or another. The only way to not step on anybody's toes, is to never release historical figures at all, but that seems extreme to me and unnecessary. It's ok to not like a doll for whatever reason, and there are historical figures that I would not be comfortable having a doll of either, even if I were to change that doll later. However, I wouldn't blame the company for doing it or for people choosing to buy.

      This is one of those personal things where people are going to feel what they feel and do what they do. However, it would be a good thing if the upset parties paused to examine their feelings and then decide if their reactions are actually in-line with the issue at hand. You are asking Volks and other doll owners to understand and respect where you are coming from, but you have to do the same for Volks and your fellow hobbyists too. Personally, considering the connection to Sendai, this seems like a very timely thing to do and that it probably reflects more upon what's happening in Japan currently, and nothing to do with Korea.

      Again, I think you are tending to applying issues between Korea and Japan to where they don't belong. It's not a bad thing to care about history, and to be upset by things that happen -- after all, we don't want a repeat. But don't let those issues consume you to the point that you're looking for what isn't there. I don't think releasing one historical figure will necessarily lead to releasing worse ones. If a company really crosses the line, people will complain or not buy etc and that can be dealt with should it happen. Discouraging the creation of dolls based on historical figures for this reason really misses opportunities to create some interesting dolls and help connect people to history.
       

    8. I'm sorry you feel so offended by this doll release to go about assuming the worst about future owners of this doll. You speak on how unfair it is for Volks to release this doll in Korea? What if there are people in Korea who want Date despite his "bloody wars"?
      What if they like his face or his fullset? Need an extra SDGr body? Is not extremely nationalistic? I by no means know how Koreans in Korea feel about this doll from what you claim but there have to be people excited there just like some are offended.

      What you can do, as an offended party is not buy this product. I think it's ridiculous to ask Volks to not release him at all and all of Korea loses a chance to go for him. I personally have no intention to keep him as a feudal lord and don't appreciate being judged for "glorifying" anything when no one here knows my intention for purchasing him.

      I am not here to tell anyone else how to feel about this release but rather to respect the doll community as a whole. You may have a negative opinion without saying anything aloud about someone who owns Date but that in itself is offensive to me. Not being exactly fair to other owners while you are making this whole post about Volks not being fair to Korea. I guess life is just unfair. At least your honest about your opinion.
       
    9. Just to add a fact, second hand selling of all products of Date Masamune, including SDGr body to any of his wig or eyes, no matter he is going to be released in Korea or not, is in process of discussing for banning it from the community. Just in case if someone wanted to know.
       
    10. Man, I want that plushie. You can also buy LE Hello Kitty items of just about all of the popular Sengoku lords, including Date. I, right now, own tiny figurines of Akechi Mitsuhide and Toyotomi Hideyoshi. Making character goods of these historical figure is nothing new for Japan. You can even find them for modern people. Check out the stuff you can buy from the city of Obama in Japan. I always did want a plushie of Prime Minister Koizumi - who also has an anime about him where everyone in the world plays mahjonng for justice and George W. Bush is a villain.

      People do keep commenting on Hitler dolls, but they are ignoring a post made by rkold earlier that Luts, a Korean company, released Nazi uniforms for dolls. A lot of Western doll owners were shocked and appalled, but it is important to remember that Asian attitudes towards Nazis are different than they are in the West. The social stigma is there but it is not as prevalent as it is in Europe or America, because they had very different experiences of what happened during WW2. Thus, it wasn't really that shocking to me. I mean, even in America, everyone is quick to talk about Hitler's atrocities, as they should, but not as many people will talk about what Stalin and the Russians did because they were technically Allies.

      Hmm, I suppose another good analogy would be the boom in popularity of Che Guevara. Right now, he's seen as this symbol of revolutionary spirit in pop culture, when he really was a huge factor in the Communist takeover of Cuba, which persists to this day. Che's face can be found on t-shirts, posters, you name it.

      I assume you mean the Korean bjd community, but wherever it is, I find THAT horrendously appalling and offensive. I certainly wouldn't take kindly to anyone who tried to police my doll purchasing based on their prejudices. I'm pretty sure I would tell them where they could stick it. Fine, you have issues with the doll. That's fine, you don't have to buy it. What gives you or anyone else the right to tell them they can't buy it if they want it? That's ridiculous and offensive.
       
    11. Rosemarygarden, I don't think anyone's arguing you don't have a right to be bothered by it, but when you bring up the Touhoku earthquake/radiation, it detracts from the point you're trying to make. Can we please keep that out of the discussion?

      You and other people are perfectly within their rights as customers to object to the Date doll if they find it offensive and make a complaint about it, but if Volks chooses to ignore those complaints, that is also their right as a private company. Likewise, I'm assuming you brought this up in a debate forum for it to be discussed, so when other people say their opinion, for the most part I don't think they're trying to attack you, just answer your question.

      As Ratty posted, Date's actually referenced all over the place, probably because of the distinctive crescent shape stuck on his helm, but I'm pretty sure a whole lot of people have no idea who he is. That's true for *tons* of historical figures in Japan. While I suppose you could criticize them for this, I also think it's to their credit that they manage to keep history relevant, in whatever form. Most countries do not, and I think it's to their detriment. We can only learn from our past by remembering to look back on it.

      I get that he may represent something reprehensible to you, but if what you're upset about is revisionist history I think there are a lot more obvious outrages than a doll. ^^; It's also something EVERY country does, not just Japan. Textbooks in public schools of all developed nations are full of subjective, revisionist history. Written not just by the winners, but by the losers too. Because everyone involved is human, and everyone has their own perspective, naturally things get recorded and taught different ways. Pretty much every country has done horrible things to lots of other countries, and a whole lot of historical figures have done horrible things not just to other country's citizens, but to their own. That doesn't stop them from being relevant though, and I don't think it means we can't make references to them in various forms of media.

      I'm just not seeing how Volks selling an interpretation of Date Masamune as a doll constitutes presenting him for idolization or is some callous slap-in-the-face to Korea.
       
    12. Just to add a fact, second hand selling of all products of Date Masamune, including SDGr body to any of his wig or eyes, no matter he is going to be released in Korea or not, is in process of discussing for banning it from the community. Just in case if someone wanted to know

      Well thats... uncool. I mean, once the body and the eyes are separated from the doll, how could you even tell what set they're from anyway? And what about people who buy the sculpt and then turn him into a completely different character? Why would that be still offensive?
       
    13. That just doesn't seem right. It's okay to not like the doll yourself, it's not okay to demand that other people not buy and sell him (or parts of him as the case maybe). That's saying that the people that are uncomfortable with Date have the right to their opinion, but that nobody else does, and that's not cool. You have to give people the room to make up their own minds and make their own choices. This is a hobby, for heaven's sake, not a political crusade! Like many things related to abjds, it's not really all that complicated -- if it bothers you, don't buy. If you like it, buy it. End of story.
       
    14. This. So much this.

      I am really horrified to see someone demanding restriction of someone's else's purchases based on their personal feelings. If that was considered 'acceptable', I hate to think of what would end up lost to owners due to religious sensitivities, or other concerns that are not universally held.

      Rosemarygarden, you have the right to making shopping decisions for you, not for anyone else. Just... WOW. The arrogance to think otherwise is downright shocking.
       
    15. Absolutely, this. It is mind boggling that anyone would deem it acceptable to police other people's purchases this way. Don't like the doll, don't buy it. Boycott Volks if you like. Definitely send them letters registering your offence-you have every right to do those things. What no-one does have a right to is to tell people that they cannot or should not buy or sell something because they personally don't like it. Disliking something does not give one supreme authority to make decisions for other people, and I am, well, not shocked, really, but unpleasantly surprised that in a hobby that's very much "an' it harm none, do what you will" there is a group ready and willing to impose their opinion on an entire community which may or may not share those views. Let people buy and sell the dolls/parts in the community. If people are offended/don't want to buy them, they won't buy them. The vast majority of hobbyists are adults or older teenagers who are more than capable of making their own decisions in regards to this sort of thing.
       
    16. I have to agree with Taco and surreality here (and Hominivorax, who commented while I was typing) in regards to owning/selling Date. In fact, I was perfectly willing to just watch this debate quietly, especially since I know I can't really add much to it and there are people far more eloquent than me participating. But I can't stand policing of opinions en masse. Everyone is perfectly allowed, in my opinion, to despise the idea of a Date doll, to absolutely love the idea of the doll, or to not care two coconuts about it. But, to go out of your way to ensure your opinion is followed to a tee is definitely crossing a line. Insisting no one is allowed to buy the doll is like someone else insisting everyone HAS to buy the doll. In the end, it should be the individual's decision to buy or not buy him, to sell him or not sell him. What offends you (or, heck, doesn't offend you) shouldn't have bearing on everyone, including a whole BJD community.
       
    17. I wanted stop posting but I decided to add some more as I made some trouble with my final reply.
      It was agreed by many, to be specific all of people who commented strongly agreed related to the issue on that website, and this is quite touchy matter so please don't blame. It is not like they are considering banning of second hand selling in DOA so I don't think that is that offensive to you. You can do what you want to do with that doll and I think it was agreed before.
       
    18. Whether or not a lot of people agreed, doesn't make it any less disturbing. If most people don't like the doll, they won't buy him, and you won't see him much. But if people want to buy, they should be allowed to do so -- that is their right and choice to make. Allowing the doll on the website, doesn't mean that people have to buy him -- it just means they have to extend a little bit of respect to those who feel differently than they do.

      I'm confused by your wording -- do you mean you think that they are discussing banning him on DoA, or that they are not so it shouldn't matter to us? Sorry, I don't want to mistake what you said. Whatever way you meant it, however, yes, it is still offensive, because that kind of censorship by it's very nature is offensive. A group of adults should be able to decide what they want to buy and sell on their own.
       
    19. Taco I was just editing that bit because of typo. Thank you for mentioning.
       
    20. http://www.pullip.net/info/list.php?category=1&field=&keyword=&page=2&idx=715

      And here we go. Pullip Date Masamune, produced by a Korean company, sold on their Korean website. Is this Pullip going to raise people's ire? How about the Motochika doll they are also releasing, as he was also heavily involved in the Korean invasions. The Date in Sengoku Basara is a very, very heroic portrayal. He's the hero main character who saves Japan from evil on several different occasions.

      As to them leaving DoA alone, tt doesn't matter where they are trying to bully people into banning him, the principle of the matter still is highly offensive to me.