Does 'historical background' of a doll bother you.

It doesn't really matter that they're not considering banning it here. The idea that anyone feels it is appropriate to enforce opinions that may not be held by everyone for the sake of their own offended sensibilities is, quite frankly, offensive itself. That kind of censorship is Not Good, no matter where it is occuring. I would be just as disturbed if it were, say, a Japanese board banning sales of a Kublai Khan doll, or an American board banning sales of a doll of a specific general (Lee. Grant, Jackson, Sherman, etc.), or a Mexican board banning sales of an Hernan Cortes doll. See above posts re: people being adults and capable of making their own decisions. I don't see how allowing those dolls to be bought and sold on the site would be a terrible thing. People who do not want them will not have to buy them, people who do will have access, and as long as everyone (or at least the majority) can maintain a reasonable degree of civility and understanding, there shouldn't be a problem.

 

Though some people shy away from conflict too, and may not be comfortable facing a whole group of people with a very strongly held opposing view point. Or someone could change their mind, or someone could join the community after the fact etc etc. Look, if nobody likes the doll, there is no need to ban him anyway, is there? There wouldn't be any. If someone does like the doll, then people need to be able to deal with that. Nobody gets to go through life without ever being offended -- they need to be able to deal with some people who may feel differently. The point is that, the choice to buy and sell or not buy and sell should be there for the individuals to make. If everybody happens to decide the same way, then fine, but it shouldn't be enforced.

 

Things like group bullying or shaming don't come into play there? You've already on DoA said that people who don't agree with you are ignorant and implied you pass negative judgement on them. I highly doubt you are encouraging an honest discussion about people's feelings on the matter. And even beyond that, even if a majority don't like the doll, they still shouldn't be allowed to force their opinions on the minority for what breaks down as a private, hobby purchase. I may not agree with or like a doll of Hitler, be made uncomfortable by one, maybe even offended, but I cannot deny that if someone wants one, they have the freedom to do so and would never try to stop them from purchasing one.

 

No, it's not about what they value -- as I said, it's ok to not like the doll, to not buy the doll. I can actually understand why you and others don't like the doll. The issue is how people are handling the situation. Rather than choosing for themselves to not buy, they are making other people's choices for them, and that's not ok. People have free will, individuals need to be able to decide for themselves how they feel and about it and whether or not they should buy and sell or share the doll with their chosen communities etc. There's nothing wrong with feeling strongly about something, but you can't force others to feel the same way or do the same things -- that's very repressive bullying type behavior and it isn't good.

The adult thing to do if you don't like the doll is don't buy the doll, don't buy pieces from the fullset, and if you see threads with photos posted of said doll, then don't click on them. Go and do your own thing with the dolls that make you happy. The same goes for everybody else. Communities are not monolithic with everybody always agreeing about everything, and people have to be able to deal with that. That's just a part of life.

 

So are people in Korea protesting the Jun Planning (a Korean Company) release of Date (and Motochika) as well? You've not answered if you are equally offended by this version, or are you only offended by the fact a Japanese company is releasing a doll of Date??

 

Umm......Sengoku Basara is from this year. There is a movie in the theatres in Japan right now. The doll is being released this month. The same as Volks' Date.

 

Kim, you're kindasorta my hero right now. Just sayin'.

Rosemarygarden, to clarify -- do you mean another collector's forum elsewhere? A local club where you are (or somewhere else)? While I don't think that makes things any better, it's probably good to know what group of people are considering 'forbidding purchase' so you aren't misunderstood. If it's 'this list of people who signed a petition saying they won't buy the doll', sure, heck, why not, whatever toots your horn -- but if it's something else, I have have to stand by my previous remark.

Taco raises an excellent point, also. Shaming or shunning someone for their choices of what they wish to buy, or instating bans on items, is a present day negative action. You have been presenting your opinions quite forcefully, and were I not such a loudmouth I would have just avoided this debate beyond my first comment due to their strength and the extremes that have been grasped for so tenuously for justifications. This seems less and less like a debate, and more like it was meant to rally the troops to help support the idea of a ban -- for your own community or elsewhere -- or pressure Volks into following your personal wishes with the ability to point somewhere else to say, "Look, people from all over the world agree!" (If that was the plan, well, it backfired pretty hilariously.)

I have no desire to buy this doll personally, so none of this has any impact on my purchasing choices. I'm still sittin' here arguing through my last cup of coffee regardless, because the very principle of someone telling me I'm not permitted to buy something because they're uncomfortable with it is abhorrent to me. My dear mother hates anything 'devllish' and is very displeased that she's anatomically correct, let alone the dolls I buy, but if she doesn't get to say what I do or do not spend my money on, a complete stranger doesn't stand a chance.

 

Well, the anime and games have been around for several years, but they are still current and still very popular. And even if the first game is several years old, the Date Masamune Pullip is still being released this month. It is not old news.

 

At this point I think it should be useful to link to the Wikipedia article for People of the Sengoku period in popular culture.

Right now, manga that feature Sengoku era people range from Kohta Hirano's Drifters to CLAMP's Gate 7, with some oddities like Sengoku Strays (a shoujo manga about bishie!Oda Nobunaga) or Dohran (a manga about Tokugawa Ieyasu's son and magic swords) besides, so in a way they're all over pop culture in these moments.

 

Thanks for posting that Kim because I have been racking my tiny brain trying to remember which popular doll company made this Date Masamune figure. I had never heard of the historical character before seeing it and assumed he was a generic anime character as I have seen the "Samurai" figure with the eyepatch and half crescent head gear before. This thread has been educational to me at least!

RoseMaryGarden: am I right to assume that you object to the depiction of ANY historical figure as a BJD then? It's the only conclusion I can reach from your comments because otherwise there would have to be some sort of International governing body to arbitrate over which Historical Figures are appropriate for this honour and which are not. I have a feeling that Ghandi is one of the few RL people likely to survive the vote, maybe Mother Theresa or Buddha? Actually, I'm sure all 3 would be vetoed by some group on the grounds of causing offence.

Do you see why people are having issue with your stance? No one disagrees about you having such heartfelt objections on a personal level, but on an International level it is unworkable and unfair to those who see this historical character as something other than a tyrannical warlord who terrorized the Korean people. Che Guevara is the best example I have seen mentioned so far, he is a figure that can polarize views like no other in certain parts of the world and yet in the West he became an Icon of rebellion and counter culture. So many people who buy posters, T-shirts, etc and identify with his image, know very little about the real man or the cause he fought for. They certainly do not think of the families of the people he killed. That doesn't make them bad or stupid it is just an example of how an iconic figure like Che or even Date can become something more than the real and complex person they were in life. They have transcended the actions and motivations of their lifetime and go on to mean something quite different to following generations, that is what the passage of time does for the majority.

What I am trying to say, is that, though this historical figure obviously causes a personal response for you, he does not seem to represent the same thing to people in Japan, to the Korean makers of Pullip or to the vast majority of people who read this thread. he has become a symbol of something else. To demand Volks to ban the doll, expect a forum to do so or to ostracize people who buy the doll, surely you would need to be in the majority, and I'm sorry, but this thread suggests otherwise.

 

I think the point of bringing the Pullip up is that you seem to be adamant that the idea of a Date-related item (in this case, Volk's BJD) is an offense to Korean people/history when a Korean company is releasing a Date item itself. It does help to backup the argument that this is actually very personal to you and very personal to others but you and whoever else do not represent an entire country's view on the subject. That being said, while you may not be speaking of this particular BJD board, you are still insistent that somewhere else out there everyone must follow your view on the matter. Even in this thread you have been adamant about it even though this is a debate thread and not everyone has to cozily agree with everyone else. Again, you are perfectly allowed to feel how you feel and not buy him or a Pullip of him or even an action figure or a plushie or whatever else. But, it's not fair to push this onto anyone else. Everyone is allowed to buy or not buy something that offends them. Again, I state, you telling me or someone else I can't buy the BJD is like me telling you you HAVE to buy it regardless of your personal stance on the subject. Would you be offended by that?

 

What exactly are we supposed to think when you say there are discussions to ban the secondhand sales of Date dolls in another community? We only are working with what you are telling us, after all, and if you know of them and are so forcefully against this doll here, it's really not a huge leap in logic to think you are saying the same things there. Your mentioning of the ban was brought up in a way that I saw as you trying to go "See, other people agree with me, so I must be right." When really, reasonable people find those actions offensive.

If you want to raise awareness, you certainly are going about it the wrong way, by calling people ignorant, and insisting people see things from your point of view without wanting to look at things from their point of view. It's a two way street and you are asking people to do things which you yourself have been unwilling to do in this thread.

 

Hello? did anyone realize that Volk create this Date largely based on Sengoku Basara ? The custom, the hair ! Seriously. why a tiny doll can pull out some many other issues? I don't get all the nationalism and Nazi and Hitler thing. IT'S JUST TOTAL IRRELEVANT ! I really don't understand what's wrong about this doll. From the beginning of the post, I thought this is just culture misunderstanding, but now I'm just confused. This is just weird ~

SORRY, I'M NOT A HISTORIAN. I JUST LIKE SENGOKU BASARA AND MY FAVORITE CHARACTER IS DATE MASAMUNE. I ESPECIALLY LIKE IT WHEN HE SAYS " LET'S PARTY !". WHAT SORT OF ANCIENT JAPANESE SPEAK ENGLISH ? BLAME THE GAME / TV FOR MAKING SENGOKU FIGURES SO POPULAR THAT VOLK IS GOING TO RELEASE THEM !