Does 'historical background' of a doll bother you.

I agree with Kim. How it was expressed and when it was expressed seemed to insinuate that you were part of the ban and that you were using it to backup your point that this BJD is offensive. I get now that you aren't but that doesn't make the ban less offensive. Also, if you were against the ban, clearly you would say something in this other community but I'm getting the feeling that you wouldn't terribly mind this doll being banned. Which, in my opinion, is just as wrong. We should be free to make our own buying decisions in this community as a whole (whether on DoA or some other board). Also, I would hate to see one ban lead to another. You never know, that could end up biting YOU in the foot someday.

I'm not saying you have to at all drop how you feel but you have to understand that not everyone will bend to your will. Just like, in my opinion, this doll isn't offensive to me. I agree with many others in this thread that another man's hero is another man's villain and it's been that way all through history. But, just because I feel that way doesn't mean I insist you let go of how you feel. There aren't many people that could be made into a doll that I would find offensive. But, even if I did, I can't control what other people do with their money. I just don't think it would be fair.

That aside, this thread has been educational. I love hearing about historical figures, whether good, bad, or both. And I'll definitely have to check out Sengoku Basara.

 

Based on the costume and wig of the doll, I don't think Volks based him on the Sengoku Basara depiction. "You see?" ;P
(off topic, but did anyone else notice Kazuya Nakai now has voiced two characters that have been turned into Volks dolls? Date and Hijikata, although the latter is the parodied version)
...Unless the picture I found of Volks' Date doll is not the actual one.

As for the debate and the wayward road it's gone down, I'm wondering now if the group that rosemarygarden referred to always raise objections to every single Date Masamune depiction or merchandise that comes out of Japan? Or is Volks simply the special one that needs be singled out?

What about DoA members who are actually Koreans living in Korea? It would be interesting to note what their views are upon this subject matter on this thread.

All this talk about banning a doll from a community...isn't it the kind of attitude that's similar to racial segregation that's been discussed in this thread? Doesn't this exhibit how we are mere humans who can't help repeating history despite knowing not to do so?

 

It's not surprising in the least that people are directing these comments at you- because you are the one bringing the topics up. You are bringing them into this discussion- so you have to take responsibility for that. And once again- do as you preach! You've made so many disapproving comments towards everyone else- so don't be so surprised when they are returned. I might actually believe that you can see other peoples points- if you didn't keep backtracking.

All this debate has done, is go from racism to censorship. Censorship which is completely counter to your original point that people should be educated about the historical figure- if he never shows up, how on earth do you expect people to learn about him?

I don't think any boycott of Volks by Korean fans- or any letter from them will change Volks decision. One: the production, advertisement, etc. is already in place- which would be a massive loss. Two: Volks already sell out limited dolls- this means the market is bigger than their production. This means that even without the Korean market, Volks are likely to be able to continue selling their dolls to people who don't have an issues with one of their many releases. Those of you who are boycotting are the only ones going to lose out when they release something you do like.

In short- you are only causing yourself to suffer through negative emotions with regards to the topic. After stressing and fretting about it's release- you'll more than likely only be disappointed when Volks does nothing- you are the only one who will suffer because of this. Not Volks- not anyone here. If you're really lucky, Volks might limit him to the Japanese market and then you'll get to make any Korean's who wished to own him suffer as well.

Also the idea of a ban is very different from the idea of a boycott- the first being something imposed on you, the second being something you can take part in of your own free will. The whole point of a ban is that everyone participates willingly or unwillingly because someone 'higher up' than they has implemented a ban on it's sale. A boycott means the choice to not buy- a ban means forced to be made unable to buy.

And finally: What you are doing in this debate is called 'stigmatization'. You are creating (with your statements) a stigma around something, so that others will feel that if they decide to purchase it. A lot of people are going to take offense to that and call you out on it because it's a shitty thing to do- but in the end? No one's going to care, you are a single person with only vague mentions to people not on this board, that the people here are likely to never meet or have contact with- if people here want him, they're still going to buy him.

 

Okay I haven't read the last few pages so maybe someone already touched on this, but before you go knocking on Hetalia, perhaps you should read it, because surprisingly Hetalia is pretty historically accurate when it comes to actually events that happened, even some of it's jokes are based on things that happened in history. I like Hetalia, but I don't watch or read much of it but just yesterday I went to a Hetalia History panel by a guy who's a history teacher and when he first stumbled upon a Hetalia clip was surprised by just how much history information a cartoon with bishonen, aimed at young girls had in it. A lot of which you'd never get unless you knew history. Case in point, in the manga/anime Germany and Italy are walking through a desert and Italy uses his water to make pasta, well guess what, that actually happened! When the Germans and Italians were in some African desert if I'm remembering correctly, during I believe WWI, the Italians were using there water to make pasta, which is a completely bad idea because then you can't drink it, bath in it or wash clothes with it. And that's just one of the many little gems that were pointed out to us. So yes you can learn something from a silly cartoon, comprised of what may be stereotypical characters. So honestly anything that gets people involved in learning or wanting to learn about history is fine by me.[/rant]

And sorry I've gone a bit off topic, I've been gone all day, and just got a chance to reply to this.

 

I'm inclined to remember that whoever writes the history books, wins the cult of personality. War happens. Horrible things happen. (If you are American, that is) Would you buy a GI Joe doll for your son or nephew after Abu Greib hit the news? And we still see companies making doll uniforms that are so very close to the Nazi uniforms, I have to wonder what the heck they are thinking! O_o And maybe people who work on comics or photo story lines want a bad guy for their story?

I wouldn't worry about buying a doll. Especially if he came with the full samurai kit.

 

People buy Nazi-like doll uniforms because Hugo Boss made some seriously amazing, stylish and good-looking clothes. Plenty of militaries (like the Russian military - and a very nice looking uniform it is) around the world incorporate cuts and designs from the Nazi uniforms Boss created, let alone numerous works of fiction and the like. They were designed to look impressive, and they fulfilled that task beautifully. As long as they're not buying the doll uniforms to slap a swastika armband on them, I consider them completely non-offensive, because it was the bad people who wore the clothes, not the clothes that made the bad people. (And if they are, well, then it would really depend on the reason. I'm not gonna say that all Nazi characters/dolls are bad, or that all Nazi characters/dolls must inherently be the bad guys. On of my favourite fictional characters of all time was a Nazi, and the German-made movie he comes from is touching, beautiful and tragic. I was actually planning on doing a photostory with the theme of the movie and the main character, but never got around to it)

As I said earlier, it's all in the intent of the doll-owner. If they had no intention of being offensive, especially if they took precautions to educate themselves on the topic and go through with their idea anyways, carefully putting it together to be as accurate and relevant as possible, then all of the negative feelings of offense are on the person feeling bothered or offended.

 

Wow, a ban on secondhand parts that've been separated from the doll's original fullset? Just because a small subsect doesn't like the fullset's concept? That is remarkably wack! Totalitarian, even! If you hate the band, you stay home from the parade-- but you don't piss all over it from the window of your ivory tower. Others might still like to march in it.

(You will please pardon the hideously mixed metaphor, but that level of wackness seems to have garbled my eloquence-cortex.)

 

In some ways, I can see where Rosemarygarden is coming from, in the sense that it's difficult to accept that some people feel differently from how you feel, especially in ethical or controversial cases. For example, I think everyone should agree with me that intensively farmed meat is evil and wrong and would rather go without meat at all than eat it. BUT I've long since learnt that I can't dictate to people what they should and shouldn't eat, and nor do I have the right to feel contempt for them, call them ignorant, cruel, callous, etc. Apart from anything else, it's entirely the wrong way to get your point across. To whirl shrieking up to someone eating KFC and going "Oh my God I can't believe you're eating that, you must be completely evil!" is a lot more damaging than explaining to someone why you're against eating intensively farmed meats, then letting them make up their own mind.
It's the same thing concerning this doll. Surely it's better to raise awareness of the doll's controversial nature by explaining to people why you dislike it, and letting them form their own judgements, than by setting out a ban that will feel oppressive and unreasonable to people who like the doll.
I know very little about Japanese history, thanks to being "educated" by a Eurocentric English school, but when I saw the Luts Nazi uniforms, I was more intrigued than offended. Whatever negative connotations the uniforms have, they were beautiful garments and I could understand anyone wanting to buy them purely on that basis. People will probably buy the doll for the same reason- they most likely won't even use him for a Date character, but create a new character for him, as is common with BJDs. Why then should it be offensive?

 

Is there a link where I could see this doll? (I want to decide if I want it

As for the topic, no it doesn't bother me in the least bit. The past is in the past and if someone be it a company or an individual wants to make a doll based on a historical figure I could care less.

Someone's hero has to be someone's villain after all.

 

The Volks SDGr Date Masamune is being discussed in the Kobe Dolpa thread. Here's a shot of him from the event guide.

 

Wow. Well, he is beautiful! But I can well imagine someone buying him because they love his look, or he fits a character they planned to shell, rather than to specifically celebrate him as a historical person.

 

I actually own a Great Coat from the German Luftwaffe. Why? It was given to me as a gift because I fell in love with the coat when I first saw it. Yes, it was most likely worn by my friend’s father in air battle during WWII, and he reminded me a lot of Jurgen Prochnow’s Der Alte from Das Boot. He never believed what was done was the right thing. He did what he had to do to survive, like my own family, and put his personal feelings aside… anyway she's a lot older than I am, and she has no children. When he passed away, she said it should go to someone who enjoyed it for it being *gasp* a COAT and not any Nazi paraphernalia. (She’s had a LOT of people, neo-nazi mostly, wanting his stuff. I have a lot because I’m the ‘safe choice’. I won’t misuse nor violate what was given freely or sully the memory of a man that I thought was very much level headed and kind. I interviewed him once for a history paper and he was the first man I ever saw cry over what was done.)

I’m a Northerner, but I love Robert E. Lee. The only man who surrendered because his men were dying and he couldn’t stand watching them get slaughtered. Not too many generals have that distinction. Grant was a drunkard and supported slavery, unlike Lee. Ironic how one was held up and the other vilified. History, as people have mentioned, is written by the winners and not the losers.

There is a line of dolls, and I can’t remember anymore who makes them, but they were all well-know SS officers and high ranking officials including Himmler, Hitler, Goering, Mengela etc ad nauseam. There are also Lenin and Stalin dolls, Hirohito dolls, Musolini dolls, Pol Pot dolls, Sadam Hussein dolls. You name it, there’s a niche for it. *gags* Do I consider those particular ones tacky? Yes I do. Makes me disappointed, but it doesn’t offend me. They have the right to produce it as freedom goes both ways. Simply because people don’t want to hear it, doesn’t mean it can’t be said or produced. Simply don’t buy if it offends you. (Although I particularly dislike the Mengela, Hitler and Hirohito dolls myself. They give me a really bad vibe when I look at them.)

As for the Hitler comment, there are only one, possibly two historical people even close to comparing to him: Stalin and Pol Pot.

It’s easier to make the comparison between Date and Tepes, though. Both were in a war and did what they had to do to ‘repulse the foreign barbarians’, and they went full tilt. Admittedly, I think they both went a tad too far, but it achieved the objective. Both are also heroes to the people of their country. Now I’ve mentioned Tepes to a Turkish friend of mine and he made it clear that he thought Tepes was an uncouth heathen. I said he thought the same of the Ottoman Turks, but he understood both sides of the coin.

No, this doll is not going to be butchering Koreans nor glorifying his past deeds. I think the doll was being produced mainly because Date founded Sendai, and they’ve been devastated since the earthquake/Tsunami. I’m not offended, even knowing the background history. I don’t think I’d even care if someone made a Santa Anna doll, unless it was horribly done.

If I like the sculpt of the doll, I like the sculpt. I don’t burden the doll with all the baggage of the past. S/he’s an inanimate object with no ability to comprehend nor remember said history.

 

Besides the touching personal story attached to it, the German Luftwaffe Great Coat is also a beautiful piece of clothing. Not all the Nazi's did was bad: they did know how to make good uniforms.

 

Just Googled it and that is one beautiful bit of tailoring - They really don't make 'em like they used to!

Maybe wearing it is analogous to buying the Date fullset and splitting it up?

 

(Deleted the uniform bit because, seriously 's not worth getting into.)


Also, yes, absolutely, the dolls are *dolls*. Some seem to overlook the whole "If you don't like it, don't buy it or look at it or think about it" thing in cases like this. The doll didn't and can't physically hurt anyone, it's an inanimate object. Even if the historical background (real or from another 'verse) is that it's a mass murderer who stomped puppies and punched babies in its off time, it's still just a doll. Wipe the faceup, change the clothes, give it a new wig and it's not that character anymore. The doll itself would certainly be offensive to some people (and they'd have every right to be offended), but those people would have to remember that the people who liked it had just as much right to their feelings as the offended did and that the company also had the right to create the doll in the first place. The same goes for any potentially controversial doll. (For example, I own one of the Film Noir Lawrence Owens, and they caused quite the shitstorm when they came out. I'm fairly sure that Dollmore doesn't condone and isn't glorifying murder, rape or violence against women/anyone, despite the, er...controversial product photos and the dolls' faceups. Yes, people were offended, and they had the right to be. That does not, however, make those of us who liked the dolls bad and it doesn't negate our right to like them or the company's to produce the dolls or present them in the way they wished.)


Regarding the Hitler, Musolini, Stalin, etc. dolls, I have seen action figures of all of those and they really don't bother me. I wouldn't choose to buy them because I've no interest in them, but number of people collect those particular action figures. Most, if not all of them are just history buffs who either like making dioramas with their dolls or simply to have the various figures in their collections. Creating a doll of someone doesn't necessarily mean that a company/person is celebrating the things they did or is trying to glorify said person, nor that the buyer is purchasing them because they're a fan of the real person the doll is based upon. (In cases like this, it's more "This person was a hero to our country" than "Oh yay, he slaughtered a hundred thousand innocent people!") I'm sure there are people out there who *are* buying them for that reason, but there are plenty more who are not. Many people probably don't give a damn who Date was and just like the pretty dollie, as they might with any other doll of the sort. I have the right to think that the doll itself is squicky and possibly to (privately) question the motivation of the buyer, but I do NOT have the right to immediately dub them ignorant people or to make statements about what kind of person they are based upon their liking a doll.


Can I also just say that the idea/concern that most (or even many) people who are likely to buy one of these dolls is going to be getting their history lessons from dolls and cartoons is a bit silly? If they care about finding out about people or things mentioned in, say, Hetalia or in the backstory of a doll, history books and Wikipedia are not difficult to access in order to get the real information on any given figure.

 

This debate has taken a rather interesting turn.

I agree, 100%. You can't judge someone from 400 years in the past on the sensibilities of today.

No one is saying that once a historical event passes out of living memory that it is fair game. There are always going to be strong feelings surrounding these historical events and the figures that were major players in these events.

There are a lot of terrible things that have happened to people and nations throughout history, we shouldn't forget what they went through or glorify their troubles, but neither should we have to tiptoe around someone else's sensibilities so much. Volks is a Japanese company who has international premises in the US and Korea, but primarily they are a Japanese company with a Japanese focus. This doll was probably never intended to cause offence, but to lift the spirits in a time of worry and sadness - which is why (and I am making an assumption here, so feel free to correct me) he has his sword, but not his distinctive helmet and armour. The Volks Date Masamune is not depicted as a warlord.

 

It's a very interesting thread here.
There are very good opinions out there among all the posts.

And I'm a bit relieved now because I'm a bit of a uniform fetishist ^^'
and I can't come around that I couldn't like the Nazi-uniforms only for their appearence.
But because of the negative connotation the uniforms have I felt always uneasy to like them.

Especially because I'm german myself I felt uneasy. But with a clear conscience I can say that I never approve to anythig that these (sorry for my word choice) damn Nazis did.

What someone produce and what they don't, we can't really control them. It was the same when I went for a school trip to Prague and I saw a Hitler carnival or halloween mask. I was shocked to see a mask of him, but I don't have to buy it so what matters.
Would something like this appear here in germany I'm sure many of our people would be very offended and acuse the seller or producer to be a Neonazi or something like this.
While such a thing would be a semy big problem here, it is there like a (for us) shocking mask in a souvenir shop.

Perhaps it's the same with these dolls. They were produced in other countrys were they are nothing more than historical figures.
(I'm sorry I don't really know how I should express my opinion. But I don't want to offend anyone.)

And to protect Hetalia a little bit. xD
Yes. I AM a Hetalia fan. And I have to thank the series for weaking my interessts in history. Before I watched and read HetaliaI was lazy with anything what had to do with history. But when I was exposed to it I begann to research for the facts they gave in the show only to understand the punch lines ect.
Whithout Hetalia I could never remember who were the allies and axis in WWII. I also don't really liked my own country before Hetalia, I wished to move out anywhere else, but I found Hetalias Germany symphatic and I looked up for my own country. Now I like Germany. I even know so many more things about the nordic countrys only because I liked their characters and I'm going to cosplay one of them.
To anyone who get their lessons ONLY through the Series it is sad.
But for me it animates me to research history more, to look for other countrys more. It animates my interests in the worlds history.

 

Everything that needed to be said about things that are both unrelated to the topic being debated and unrelated to BJDs has been said. The side-discussions of uniforms and historical anime are off-topic.

This debate is about whether people are bothered about BJD depictions of controversial historical figures.

 

!?!?!?!?!

Glorification of historical persons - not figures, these were real men and in some cases women - who wreaked pain and havoc and torture and death upon other human persons is so wrong-footed that the mind boggles that discussion is even necessary to "get" the wrongness of it. This doll is a glorification of a human monster. It is disgusting. I, personally, cannot see any way or means around it, the justification sounds overblown and hyperbolic to my ears.

 

I don't see how the justification that to the Japanese, Date Masamune is a historical hero, seen as a positive figure in Japanese society, and is very popular thanks to all of this and pop culture representations of him, is overblown or hyperbolic. To the Japanese, he's not a monster, and to many people looking back on him, he is no more a monster than any other man in his position during the time period in which he lived.