Does 'historical background' of a doll bother you.

It doesn't sound overblown or hyberbolic to me, I must say. Really it makes sort of psychological sense- the Japanese are reeling right now from the blow Nature has dealt them, and so it's pretty natural to want to focus on a national hero to make themselves feel stronger and have confidence in the Japanese identity. It's similar here in Britain- the legends go that when England is in trouble, King Arthur will rise again to defend her. It's also telling that during these times of a national identity crisis in Britain, there are many remakes of British heroes such as Robin Hood, King Arthur, etc on TV.
As the saying goes, one person's freedom fighter is another person's terrorist. Look at Jean d'Arc and Boudicca for example- we tend to think of them as great heroines, and positive role models. But the facts are they killed plenty of people too. All heroes and villains are ambivalent, and, as usual with people, historical or not, nothing really is in black and white.

 

Oh, I clearly understand why certain cultures/races want to glorify certain persons. I'm talking about this thread.

 

I'm confused then. People are providing valid reasons as to why Volks has made a Date Masamune doll. People have also provided valid reasons as to why they personally have no issue with the doll and why they would want the doll, along with those who do have issue with the doll. I don't see how that's overblown.

 

Heh, yeah, never mind me. I'm not here really to debate. I'm referencing the justifications stated here. I don't think that this IS actually a subject that can be debated. Either one accepts that glorification of monstrous human beings is horrifying or they don't.

 

My take on it would be that the Date Masamune doll is being released because Sengoku Basara was and is such a fun and popular anime -- and like all historically-based fictions of any sort, the main character's good points are played up over the bad points. For that reason I can't get awfully upset over it; EVERYONE was a murderer at one point or another in those ages, if the history books aren't completely making it up.

One man's heroic pioneer is another man's rabble-rousing lowlife radical.

Oh, and, what Kim said (with a great deal of wisdom, per usual).

 

"Either one accepts that glorification of monstrous human beings is horrifying or they don't"

Seems to me that the main debate is on whether it is actually glorification and whether they are actually monsterous human beings.

 

I think what constitutes 'monstrous' has varied greatly in history. Even beyond that -- it varies culturally even today. There are heroes in certain cultures even now that we (and by 'we' I mean the standard modern western audience) would find abhorrent.

I have only my judgment to go on when I make my purchasing choices and so on. It reflects the cultural values of the time and culture in which I was raised. I have to recognize that some of the heroes of my culture -- heroes of the American Revolution, for instance -- are probably not going to be considered great men in the same way in the UK as they are here.

 

I agree with petitefilou. This issue is a tough debate, it seems, but it definitely comes down to who you consider monstrous and what you consider glorification. Sometimes, though, even I find it hard to be so black and white about the issue, despite the acts they commited. Sometimes there's just too many other factors to consider. But, I'm all for loving/hating/not caring as long as you can give respect to others about how they feel, which is what I think most people are trying to say here.

 

At the time and day when these people existed what they did might not have been "normal" but it was in the realm of behavior that humans have displayed all throughout history. Humans are animals, and animals kill. We did it then, we do it now. Whereas it was a peasant at the wrong end of a sword back then, today it's industrialized nations sapping resources form underprivileged nations thereby comdeming hundreds to a death by starvation. Just because we don't have to look them in the eye doesn't mean it's not there. It happens, and if psychology has taught me anything it's that if roles were reversed they'd play out the same.

You just plain can't judge the past from the balcony seat that is the present, you've gotta be down in the first row when it happenes.

As to making a doll of one of these individuals, in my view it's just another piece of art. Why should it be considered different than making a video game or a movie of said individual? Everyone has their freedom as a consumer to make their own judgment call on what they do and do not want to purchase but we can't limit what the artists produce. Heck, if a company wants to make Hitler doll they're allowed to. I won't buy one, I probably wouldn't hang out with anyone who would buy one, but it's their right to make whatever they want.

 

This is an interesting thread.

Like many who've posted in this thread, yes. There's tons of dolls out there that are made after historical figures, good and 'bad'.

Take Dragon 1/6th action dolls for example. These are amazing dolls for those who enjoy realistic replicas of the world's violent history. Yes. The history of human beings is very VERY violent. And as much as the world has embraced beauty, it's embraced violence.

Because people are people, no one can expect them to get along with all other people. Varying opinions and cultures, which every human being has a right to, is what makes up the huge diversity that is our beloved planet we call Earth.

I love Dragon's 1/6th dolls. They're military dolls that range from the current war with Afghanistan, all the way back to the Roman times. They come with historically accurate weapons down to the smallest detail.

I have an U.S.A female soldier from the Iraqi war and the details on her outfit and accessories is extraordinary. I'm sure that if a member of Al Qaeda came in my house and saw my doll, they'd light her on fire and do other unspeakable things to her.

They're just dolls. And just like there's people that collect guns, guitars, electronics, cars, motorcycles, tools, hair products, posters, anime, movies... the list could go on forever... there's also people that collect military dolls. In fact, they're even more popular than BJDs are and the companies that make them are much bigger than any BJD company.

So really, if people want to make a doll similar to an old dictator, then they have all rights to do so. There's something out there for everyone.

I think it's silly to be upset over something so trivial as a doll. You don't have to want it for yourself, but that doesn't mean other people shouldn't be allowed to enjoy whatever dolls they like for whatever reason they like. I think it's pretty cool that there's that one more person that shares a love of dolls with us.

Share the dollie love.

 

Well now, this is somewhat peremptory. First of all, it's not necessarily glorification- they aren't building a shrine to Date Masumane and forcing everyone to worship him. Secondly, these human beings are not monstrous in everyone's eyes, as he's a Japanese hero. Lastly, the word "accept" seems to indicate that people who disagree with you are in some sort of stubborn denial, when in fact they may simply be able to see the other side of the coin, or possibly believe in freedom of expression. Even if it WAS glorification and even if he WAS undeniably monstrous, it doesn't always follow that the result is horrifying.

 

Sanctity of human life, preservation of the human experience. That's what I see as the dividing line between what is acceptable behavior and what is not.

I could NEVER just be cool about it and respect the position of someone who wants to waltz around in Nazi regalia on the pretense that the uniforms were cool. Extending this live-and-let-live attitude to dolls is even that much more repugnant to me.

And we did NOT need to be present in order to adequately opine regarding monstrous behavior.

 

Well, I don`t think Vlad the Impaler is seen as such a negative figure in my country as the rest of the world sees. Sure a german writer called him dracula because he wasn`t being fair with the german traders here. and every body knows how he impaled(is this the right word?) the turkish soldiers,but we Romanians also see the fact that he was a grate strategist and saved our country from invaders , and never killed inocent people.NEVER! so he can not be compared with Hitler.
Although I do like many historical figures, I would say that making a doll after one is not wrong , but more tasteless and kitschy.

Sorry if this came off a little hars but it`s my opinion.

 

Then any historical figure who ever served in any sort of military capacity by your standards would be monstrous. I cannot agree with that belief, and I certainly am not in denial of anything. People quite often kill people. The peasants often suffered. It is a huge facet of the human story. It is possible to find someone to be a hero for their good deeds while still acknowledging they also committed bad deeds. The world is not black and white and humans most certainly aren't. The world has made a lot of positive steps forward in the modern era towards changing this behaviour, this is a wonderful thing. It lets me be able to write on the internet and not be the property of my closest male relative. But it doesn't mean we can use modern standards when looking at people from 400 years ago because they were raised in a different time period with different values.

I personally have no interest in a Nazi doll, would ponder the motivations of someone who does want one and most likely find it offensive, but in the end, I have to respect that they have the freedom to own said doll. I don't have to like it, but for me to try and stop them from making it would be a far worse crime in my eyes.

 

This.

Though I would make an addendum that not just historical personages but also current world leaders. Going by what you said Zagzagel, no one should make a doll of say President Obama either since he has sent armies to invade foreign lands and has ordered the murder of various people. (Bin Laden anyone?) What honestly makes President Obama any better than Date Masamune?

Personally, I find it interesting that the person who started this thread is up in arms about a BJD being made by a Japanese company of one of their historical figures and seems to be fine with a South Korean company making a 1/6 doll of the exact same person. The opinion on Date Masamune is obviously not even black and white in South Korea if a South Korean company is choosing to make a doll of him and sell him in South Korea, since I doubt they would be doing this if they were expecting a huge backlash in South Korea.

 

Considering my reply was eaten *grumbles* I'll try to remember what I wrote.

Funny you should say this. My brother actually owns one of those dolls and it really really disturbs me. (and no, he doesn't know I have that Greatcoat nor the rest of his stuff. He'll never know as far as I'm concerned!) My mother and I think he was dropped on his head sometime as a child because he actually LIKES that monster. Even going as far as to validate his atrocities. *is disgusted* While I fully understand thanks to my friend's father as to WHY Germany elected him, it still doesn't mean the man wasn't a monster. Thankfully, I've convinced him to keep it boxed up and hidden in a closet. I love my brother dearly, but he's a freakin' moron. But it's his right to spend his own money on it... and I really don't like it.

 

I agree with Kim, as I often do While I personally would not want a doll of say, Josef Mengele, I would defend anyone who DID want that doll because at the end of the day, it's their right. Yes, I wouldn't be able to understand WHY they want that doll, but nobody has the right to tell someone what they can and can't own, unless it's for legal reasons. Likewise, someone with that doll would have to put up with negative comments should they choose to post Gallery pictures of that doll and possibly justify why they own the doll. But at the end of the day, one can't march up to someone and tell them "Your doll depicts a monstrous person and if you had any decency at all you'd burn it at the stake". Sure, you might THINK it, but if they want the doll, they can have the doll! It's a doll; it's not really hurting anyone. That's my view anyway.

 

I don't see how having Nazi memorabilia is wrong. I don't have any myself. But Hitler did have a lot of talents, despite what he did. And because of him, German machinery is some of the best in the world.

I think some of you people care too much about things not involving you. If you're so concerned about people not having historical dictator dolls, then write the many companies that produce and sell multitudes of those dolls.

Linky.

Is that Hitler doll cool or what? Comes with several outfits and is very detailed. And he costs more than a lot of BJDs do.

In the customer review, this is the general attitude of people who buy these types of dolls.

"This doll is a wonderful reproduction of Ol' Grumps himself, Adolf Hitler. Mr. Hitler, the doll, comes dressed in his usual Hitler garb, complete with over-starched collars and a variety of medals awarded for mass murder. Hitler also comes with a Nazi coat, Nazi hat, Nazi patch and an alternate and even angrier head! This doll is perfect for propping behind a tiny podium and shouting in German from behind a curtain (just read from a German dictionary, your audience will never know the difference!) while simultaneously horrifying your grandparents. Sometimes I'll bring the Hitler doll to mass just to keep my kids quiet and entertained with something. People often stare, jaw-dropped, in complete awe of the doll's stunningly accurate hairline and bitter scowl. The only complaint is that his angry, shouting face might set a bad example for children. I recommend popping off the head and replacing it with the head of Dr. Venkman from Ghostbusters to allow Hitler a more humorous and mischievous demeanor. C'mon, Hitler, you old fuddy duddy; the sun's out! Get out of the Bitter Barn and come play in the hay!"

The person that bought that doll doesn't think Hitler is some mega awesome guy to revere. He just has a good sense of humor and figured that owning a grumpy guy who couldn't get into art school would be cool.

They're just dolls.

And that Hitler doll is one of many many many Hitler figurines that there are. I'm an American and many many brave Americans fought in World War II. Just yesterday we celebrated those men and women as well as American heroes throughout history. Do you think any of those men and women, or their families would be upset with someone having a doll like that?

No. Because it just isn't worth getting upset over.

It isn't worth getting upset over.

I also find it interesting how so many people are upset over this Japanese conqueror guy when obviously this doll is going to be made in the image of some anime show character. Can you imagine how ugly that doll would be if it was really made after that guy? Statues and pictures of that dude's face is just awful.

So funny how people are getting upset over a copy of a copy. There's already a Pullip of that guy.

 

The pulliup looks a LOT like Date in Sengoku Basara. He even has the iconic helmet. The Volks looks more like a standard samurai with one eye than Date, I think. (I actually think he looks a lot more girly than the images and statue of Date.)

Mankind, throughout its history, has been cruel and base and murderous to others. Humanity likes to kill or dominate what they don't understand. We conquer and do not care a lick for those beneath the boot heel of 'progress'. In the words of Eddie Izzard, we stole countries through the cunning use of flags. However, humanity at its core is base and abhorrent and there's been much blood spilled on both sides.

Yes they did. I admit my uniform fetish and I do give them props for some rather amazing uniforms. In fact, with all the WWII uniforms I've had the privilege to handle when I worked at the Air Force Museum (Dutch, German, Russian, English, Japanese, American, Korean), I do marvel at the craftsmanship of the pieces. They're quite sturdy and hardy and really stand the test of time. I can enjoy the quality and the materials used in a piece, and how they’re put together… and not add bad connotations to it... at least I try. It was really hard to do in some parts of the museum hanger, especially the unsavory side of humanity that's shown.

I still can't help but wonder at man’s inhumanity to their fellow men. We're all equal no matter our race, creed or culture and all humans deserve basic respect and rights. It’s so disgusting… and the bad thing is man will always kill and/or maim to gain or keep things in this world… to fulfill political agendas or religious beliefs no matter how ‘enlightened’ they may be and it tears my heart to know horrid things continue even now in this world. *shakes head* Sorry that got a little off tangent, but yes! I agree that military uniforms are quite lovely and well crafted.

 

It IS worth getting upset over. It is. And if someone finds a Hitler doll cool and demands that those of us who are sickened to the marrow of our bones by such just need to get over it....well, glad they aren't in my personal circle of those folks I love.

I do agree that Date...is on a somewhat different level of monstrousness....but I'm trying to speak my own feelings/opinions about the larger issue and not that specific resin incarnation.