Dolls and feminism

The only way to really live as your own person is to honor the things you love and do your own thing. Labels have a way of putting "shoulds" where they don't belong. Some women cling to the patriarchy as a way to feel safe. It is an illusion because patriarchial males can turn on women when they "step out of line." Others, like me, delight in the freedom of divorce, having gone from my father's house to my husband's house and now to my own house. No one tells me what to do, not TV commercials, not books, not religion. Kindness and caring are my aspirations and the way I choose to live my life. Whether that is feminist or not doesn't matter. Feminism is just another label to me.

I still have the two dolls that I've had since I was 5 years old. I've brought them along with me throughout my life. I've added to their numbers greatly so they find themselves in a large group and we are all happy! I think whatever floats your boat is the way to go.

Merci

 

I apologize, it was not my intention to sound like a femi-nazi. I have not grown up with very good female role models, and I tend to be rather cynical and very generalized in my descriptions.

First of all: I'm sorry if it wasn't very clear, but I was referring to dolls, as this thread seems to adress the bodies of dolls. Yes, we may have girls of all personalitys, but the toys that are marketed towards children(Have you ever seen a fat doll? Or a healthy-sized one?) seem to be mostly focused on being pretty, and wearing pretty clothes. Go check out Toy's'r'us, be alarmed.

Even though there is practically no difference between boys and girls until the onset of puberty, little girls clothing is still made slimmer and more show-offier than little boy's clothes. This leads to little girls realizing that they are "too fat" for the clothing that length-wise fits their bodies.

There's a book called "Saving Ophelia" about the fact that many girls stop doing whatever they like doing and give up their interests in order to be appealing to a potential boyfreind around their early teens. You may feel that it sounds like a exageration, but after growing up in this day and age, I can certify that it exists, and watching it happen truly hurts. I know, because I've witnessed it first-hand.

You fight for equal pay, because that is the battle that is the most relevant to you. I fight for role-models, because that's what is important and relevant to me.

Oh, and of course I knew about legos, I had a small bucketfull after my older brother. It was one of my favorite toys. I never asked for them, because they were never marketed towards me, and therefore felt like the playsets in the magazine was not the kind of toy that a girl, like I was, should play with. I like being a girl, I just want there to be more ways to be a girl than pink and pretty. And I wish that those ways were more well-known.

 

Absolutely this. Not all women are feminists and in some cases women held support the patriarchy and damage other women.
I don't quite support choice feminism personally because, as fashionbabylon said, we really don't necessarily make all of our choices freely, it's always important to question the context of a choice and why a woman may have made that choice.

 

I personally like how pretty the female dolls tend to be. In real life I'm not necessarily what one would define as a tomboy in appearance, but in attitude I'm very much interested in motorbikes, action films and tattoos. I sometimes have much more of a masculine mind set than a feminine one. I think playing with these kinds of dolls with their pretty hair and dresses gives me an outlet to explore a very minor and hidden avenue of my personality without actually deviating too much from my usual style.

In saying that, I would be lying if I said pretty female dolls affect how I see myself. The over exaggeration of certain features is a deliberate stylistic choice which is evident in male dolls as well as female dolls. However I do feel that my ideas of women have influenced the way in which I view certain dolls. I have personally met many dishonest and scheming women in my life and prefer the company of males far better in general (although I am aware that this is not always the case, it has just been an unfortunate reality in my own personal experience) and therefor I much prefer male dolls. Yet this is not an appearance issue so much as the characteristics that I rightly or wrongly tend to automatically assign to each gender. Quite simply, I trust men more, and I feel closer to male dolls, although I find the female dolls just as visually pleasing and unthreatening.

Buying Serpahine was certainly a decision I hesitated over more than when I bought Cesavier because I planned on building a large family of male dolls, but I must say that I'm terribly excited for her arrival now.

 

Your words (though I don't want to invalidate your experience and it is possible that you just had bad luck with female friends) just reminded me of something that I tend to hear a lot everywhere: that the females "are scheming, manipulative, dishonest, backstabbing" etc. Very often, these words are even coming out of the mouth of a female! As if we needed to describe us even worse than patriarchal society does anyway, as if we needed to identify with it; it is like Stockholm syndrome. I think this is another interesting way in which we are influenced by the patriarchal society, because those are typical attributes assigned to females by male-dominated culture.

So what if many female doll owners prefer to have male dolls (it seems like that to me sometimes) not only because of the way the female doll body is presented or looks... But because females generally assign not only "better" characteristics and more value to the male doll because of reasons similar to those Rockin' Resin Addict mentioned (and Rockin', I am not saying that you are female, it is a question to the general audience)?

 

I don't want to risk dragging this further off topic but I just don't like labels. ^_^ I was really anti-label when my experience occurred, now I don't really care whether I'm called feminist, liberal, or whathaveyou. I also didn't appreciate the attitude with which I was treated because of my opposition to labels.

I never wanted to be Barbie growing up. I had more fun with GI Joe and the friggin barbie horse.

 

It's been really surprising to me that so many female collectors here prefer male dolls! But when viewed through a feminist lens, it makes a lot more sense.

 

I think that if all choices were available - and seen as a valuable option - for all sexes and genders, females would less often chooses things that are harmful to them. It is the most difficult, unpaid, unpleasant and less respected "choices" that are usually advertized to the female (being a housewife, wearing high-heels, washing up...). If we look at all the clothing detergent commercials, the actor is in 99% of cases female. Sometimes I think the reason for a couple of those weird choices is not even the wish to please a male, but media brainwashing.

 

Wait. I agree completely with the last sentence above, but the previous one is giving me trouble. Are you saying that if a woman stays home to bake cookies all day for her own sake (and enjoyment) she is also subjugating herself? I.e., to be able to call herself a feminist, if she is capable of doing something outside of the home she should/must?

Maybe I'm not understanding, but not everyone who stays home to do the housework or rear the kids is a "Choice Feminist." Choice Feminism is defined by willfully subjugating oneself so the husband can succeed. It's not the housework that really matters there, it's the subjugation.

I most definitely am not a Choice Feminist. But I did leave a higher paying job to work from home (for much, much less). I did so for two reasons. One, because I didn't like the effect daycare was having on my son. A four year old having a twelve hour day is just not right, IMO. Two, because I always envisioned myself spending at least part of my life actively raising my child/children, despite having a Ph.D. I most certainly have not subjugated myself to my husband in staying home. He still does half the household chores, has only half the say in how we spend our household income, etc. And the fact is, he would have been happy to be the one at home-- he took paternity leave, devised a work schedule that allows him to be home by 4:30 so he can help with homework and dinner, and so forth. And although I am a nurturer, he is actually better at it than me. He's always been the one who kisses boo-boos and to put our son to bed. But his job is much more safe (unionized) than mine was and his retirement plan is much better. Additionally, he has given up career advancement opportunities to be there for our son. We simply decided getting by on less money and being there for our child was more important than seeking validation from the outside world/playing the rat race game.

Am I fulfilled in any way by doing chores? Nope (although I do like to cook). But what if I was? Would it make a difference? I know lesbian couples where one parent is the stay at home mom/"housewife" and who seem to be very fulfilled by doing the Martha Stewart thing. And I don't consider those women to be subjugated either, nor "choice feminists." They just like taking care of their families, and see the value of being there for their children's key developmental years.

But to bring this back to dolls, there are choices out there for parents who don't want to expose their children to the stereotypes that Bratz carry. American Girl dolls, Groovy Girls, etc. It just means the parent has to think for herself and not blindly accept the toys that are out there, not just flip on the TV and expect that the programming is unbiased, etc.

And the great thing about a bjd is that you can give it any personality and backstory you like. She can be muscular or soft, aggressive or timid, and be feminine either way. One doesn't preclude the other.

 

This is a really great discussion and I enjoyed reading everyone's opinions on this thread. I completely agree that feminism is mainly about being free to be whatever you want to be. Bratz dolls do, in a way, reinforce what the mainstream media message on what is valued in women, sexual attractiveness. Girls today are constantly being bombarded with this message and many girls find no other choice than to accept and celebrate it. You just need to look at the Halloween costumes that girls are wearing nowadays to see how much of this message is being embraced.

That being said, since a lot of BJDs are produced in Asian countries, I can see that the dolls are modeled on what is considered attractive in their respective cultures. Long legs, big eyes, small face, thin body, are all what girls over there strive to achieve. The pressure over there is tremendous, for example there are a lot of girls in Korea paying for surgery to remove eyelids in order to have bigger eyes.
Because our (I'm going to assume American, Canadian, European) beauty standards are a little different, in that our attention mostly focuses on large breasts and behinds, we might find this new idea of beauty a bit of a change, or relief from the norm. I could be just speaking for myself, but that's one of the things that attracted me to these dolls. I was never interested in the full lipped, high-heeled, big breasted Barbie. But once I saw the thin, waif-like doll my friend dressed in frilly Lolita, I was hooked. She was just so different than what I had seen before. This was a doll that wasn't made to be sexy for once. I wish that as a child I had been exposed to all the non-sexy dolls you guys got to play with! I think I would have actually played with dolls then.

That being said, the dolly community is mostly consisted of older women who are more comfortable in their skin than younger girls. I don't think there's a lot of danger of us comparing ourselves to our dolls and having them effect our self-esteem. I'm really glad to see that from the comments above.

 

I disagree, I see plenty of dolls with very unusual looks; You've got Doll Chateau at the very least with those peculiar faces, and then artists like Kamarza on Deviantart who make their dolls, as we like to call them, "ugly pretty" although she herself just likes to call them ugly, and then OneGreyElephant, with her extreme modifications. A doll like a BJD is whatever the owner wants (and is willing to change it) to be. That's the big difference, in my opinion. But Bratz and the like give a rigid "This is what beauty is." All the sculpts are exactly the same, with slightly different makeup and clothes.

Not to mention, there are dolls that are shorter and less mature, shorter and more mature, tall and less mature, tall and more mature, to tall and VERY mature, et cetera. There's a variety. Yes, we have yet to see a BJD with sculpted fat rolls but there are definitely varying body shapes.

 

I just want to reply to this portion of your post since that's a pretty broad generalization, the membership of the forum and the BJD community represents people ranging from anything and everything 13+. There a lot of teens in the hobby, I'm sure the mods probably have the stats but I couldn't possibly guess at the actual ratios but either way there's a significant number of them and even with older members I think the number of 'Is it okay to-' threads that still crop up show that there are those who rely heavily on validation from those around them. I don't mean this in a way to bash those people, just to illustrate that they do exist, not everyone is as comfortable in their skin as you may be and there are people who put a lot of value on the opinion of others and being in line with the majority when it comes to forming their own opinions and supporting their own self-esteem. These are the kind of people who are susceptible to the mainstreams idea of beauty and really, as much as I try to avoid it I'm not blind to the fact that I too, over the years have had my opinions coloured by those same influences, it's hard for them not to be when these things are so all prevailing. It's being able to recognize them and realise that there's something not right there that's crucial.

 

I'm not understanding why Bratz dolls keep coming up. They have pumpkin heads on stick bodies. Why would any little girl want to look like one? They'd be deformed! LOL!

This is not a serious question!

 

From how I understood it, Harlequin-Elle said that if a woman stays at home because the woman wants to bake cookies, or whatever other reason that pleases her herself, it is completely acceptable; but if she does the same thing to please the male she is with, while being secretly unhappy with the choice, that then it is subjugation by choice.

I always think that staying at home with children is a choice that is as valuable as the choice to work outside the home, if not even more, BUT: I do find it really, really weird, that it is usually women who make the choice to stay at home. I still think it is the female's right to raise her kids herself in the first years, because this is what many females want. But I would wish that more of them would think twice about their choices in general. There are als women in this world who don't have the choice, still.

elfmoon, by the way: Bratz dolls are discussed because of their style here mostly and the message they carry, not because of the exact size of their heads and bodies.

 

Who makes those plus-size BJDs? I've seen pics & just can't remember. I like them - would love to have one (cause I like my dolly world to mirror us
What I have NOT seen is a plus size guy LOL

 

I would love to see a plus-size doll! I'm very new, but that seems to be about the only shape and size that isn't easily available. The variety of body shapes and genders available in dolls is really remarkable, I'm sure there's one out there...

 

So, what about Ken dolls, or male dolls in general? They aren't exactly boy-next-door either (I mean, I can't recall having ANY neighbour who's that muscular). I don't think it's an attempt to brainwash women into thinking their bodies aren't good enough; it's the curse of a society where everything has to be sexually desirable. We only show idealized bodies.
In movies, superfit actors - male or female - are used for romantic storylines. There are some exceptions of course (November in Dollhouse being one of them), but in general only the super skinny women, and buffed up men are apparently able to have a love life.

When I look at this hobby, I see just as much 'sexism' in female dolls as in male dolls. Male dolls have to have muscular bodies, or super slender female looking ones. Their faces have to be unrealistically pretty: most headsculpts could be used for female dolls as well. It's an idealized portrayal; one that is unreacheable for most of the men around us, unless their name is Andrej Pejic.

 

Oh, don't worry about that, I am indeed female.

The thing is I don't tend to view males and females as an 'us and them' situation. I do recognize and appreciate that individuals are influenced by many varying factors and may have a variety of traits regardless of their gender, which although may be a contributing factor sometimes to those traits does not influence the entirity of somebody's being. I did state that it is more personal experience where I was concerned - without wishing to go into too much personal detail in a dolly discussion, I have had some very horrendous things done to me by women. It's probably just coincidence but all of the worst times in my life seem to have been with females and all the best with males. This is more than likely a personality-trait problem as opposed to a gender one, but - like a test rat that gets punished when it goes a certain way in a maze and begins to fear the person doing the punishment instead of just the thing itself - I have begun to associate those situations with what the majority of the people I've had bad times with have been - female.

I do recognize that that it a little silly and maybe biased in some ways, and I have met some truly lovely ladies as well. As I said, I am trying to tackle how I see these things with the purchase of Seraphine, my girl dolly - I'd not really thought about it before, but maybe the gender of our dolls really do have a significant part in representing our mind sets.

To go as far as to mention Stockholm syndrome - whilst I understand your point - seems hyperbole to an extent. I do not feel that housewives get trapped into their role, or that men are similair to kidnappers. It's ironic in a way that you should mention women being against women - indeed it does not help feminists case if women are calling each other these things, but why is that? Well, sometimes it is because women do these things to each other - back stab, lie, etc. I completley agree with you on that score, we're not helping each other in doing these things, and that's why I prefer male company. The vast majority of the men in my life will come up to me and tell me face to face if there is a problem. Most of the women will wait silently for a week or so before taking it out on me in some other more obscure form.

As I have said, I've been unlucky with my female aquintances and I do hope very much to make better female friends some day. You're quite right though, I think this discussion has made me realize that it shouldn't affect doll choice. After all, our doll's personalities come from our own minds and are reflections of us - they can be whoever we want them to be. And I think my Seraphine will be a very lovely, helpful, friendly lady indeed. ^_^