Dolls, Desire, and the Perception of Reality

It seems to me that dolls are inextricably tied to each owner's inner mental landscape, which would seem inextricably related (but not, perhaps, equal to) their view of reality.

As to whether this matters or not - if you mean, does the fact that it is related to the person's inner mind matter? Then my answer is that since it's inescapable, the question doesn't really apply.

If you mean, does the form of the expression matter - is it OK to have ethically or morally questionable expressions of doll art - then um ... it goes back to the whole nature of art, and what is ok and what isn't ... mostly beyond me

 

In my opinion dolls are fantasy. Why be constrained? You can also make them as true to life as you desire, if you prefer. That's the beauty of them. ^^

Well, I intend to have an effeminate, gay, cross-dressing boy doll. He'll be as such because that's who HE is, not because I think that EVERY gay male is effeminate and has a penchant for make-up and drag.

I'm not quite following why it's a bad thing to be an effeminate gay male. I have gay friends who are very effeminate, one of whom you can barely distinguish from a female. I have masculine gay friends, too. Do I think my flamboyant, feminine gay friends give the masculine ones a bad name? Not in the least. Just because some girls are prissy, stuck-up blonds, does that give ALL females a bad image? People are individuals. Why should we point at one person in a group and say that they give the rest of their group a bad name? I think it's unfair. If one insists on stereotyping, I personally think the "effeminate gay" stereotype is a better stereotype than the "meth addicted, HIV riddled gay" stereotype. I dislike stereotypes in general.

 

The question is... do dolls reflect our perception of reality? If so, how much should that really matter?

Not for me. I think doll collecting is very individualized and everyone has different motivations for collecting. For some, they are a form of escapeism rather than expression of identity.

 

To me that's yet another gay man mistakenly thinking yaoi has anything to do with him. It's almost egotistical, the way these guys think it's them we like to sigh over in our comics... nope. It's all fake, some fantasy ideal we (most of us, anyway) recognize and celebrate for the figment of imagination it is.

Same with the dolls. For me, it's also like that with my drawings. It's a strange, rude wake-up call when someone (usually a man, yep) interrupts my fantasy world by saying "That's not how things are!" Well duh, it's my fantasy, isn't it? Or do gay men also have unicorn horns growing out of their foreheads like my Soulkid Tiffee?

It's pure, pure indulgence. If it reflects anything, it's only what we prefer to daydream about, not what partners we choose, who we befriend, or what we want to be. I wouldn't even say I'd want the real world to reflect what goes on in my head. brrr!

 

if someone creates a doll-world that is completely unlike the "real" world, that doesn't mean that their sense of "reality" (whatever that is) is skewed. it just means that they realize that many of the elements in their doll-world they so love are very hard or impossible to find in the "real" world, i.e., the faerie-lover has a pointy-eared doll with wings instead of hunting about their backyard at night for a real faerie. so one could say that they are, in fact, more in touch with reality because they realize that certain things must be created, because as far as we know, they don't exist.

if we wanted to have our own world that is exactly like the "real" world, there wouldn't be much point in having our own world, would there?

 

I had to drop in to sing some Bette Midler at you, Aggity.
Did you ever know that you're my hero?
You're everything I would like to beeeee?

 

Wouldn't you say that saying that is like saying that the any race, ethnicity of gender group criticizing crude and stereotypical depictions of any themselves is egotistical?

Because do try bringing that up to the NAACP.

 

I think that many of the idealistic characteristics shown by the majority of dolls in both appearance and personality would be far too saccharin in a real person. When I was in middle school I used to draw pretty, sly looking men and endow them with all manner of fantasy traits...elf ears, sharp teeth, vampire powers, and all the other clichés one sees over and over again in RPs and the work of juevenile fantasy fans. But as I saw more of the world I began to grow extremely tired of those hackneyed images and began to grow extremely fond of flaws. Just like, when setting up a scene for a still life painting, the composition is improved by some element of disorder, I think that beauty is somehow heightened by some lack of perfection. And so to me the doll aesthetic in any human would be extremely dull, while on the other hand, I think that dolls with something truly unlovely about them are far more gorgeous than the pristine, dime-a-dozen, over idealized ones.

 

I think you may have missed the point of what Aggity was saying...Yaoi isn't about gay men. It's about what women find attractive, and like to fantasize about rather than the actual gay community. It has about as much in common with reality as a lot of the stuff geared for men that depict women. It's all fantasy, all imagination, and most intelligent individuals realize this. I don't judge people who are gay by what I read in a yaoi manga (or see in a doll photostory, since this is about dolls after all), because myself and others can tell the difference. It's not about stereotyping a group of people, it's about depicting what women find attractive.

If you wanted to put a stop to it, then you'd better put a stop to 90% of erotic art and literature, because very little of it is a realistic depiction of men or women.

As for dolls, sometimes people take what others do with their dolls too seriously. Sometimes there's a deeper meaning, but sometimes there isn't. Not everything is a reflection of society, or meant to depict something real or our ideas of whats real. Sometimes it's just a way to exercise our imagination and shouldn't automatically be considered a direct and true reflection of what the owner sees as reality.

 

*applaudes* Oh this made me laugh (whilst agreeing at the same time, which is always a positive lol).

 

QFE, QFE!

The fantasy worlds in which my dolls live are so disconnected from reality and I like them that way. Itachi was a sociopathic mass murderer at age 13 and I find his character to be both very interesting and strangely sympathetic even though he shows no remorse for his actions. He's a fictional character, he's written to be that way. Hannibal Lecter is one of the most delightfully charming characters ever written. Do I think real sociopathic mass murderers fun and likable? Having lived in the middle of a serial killer spree, I can say that no, I do not, and it was one of the most terrifying experiences of my life.

It's a bit like everyone claiming we are all desensitized to violence watching movies, when really, all we are is desensitized to movie versions of violence. I am pretty damn sure that should someone who enjoys, say, Eli Roth movies, were to actually witness that happening in real life, they'd be sickened and disturbed. I know I'd be.

 

Interesting points. Here's what I think, not accusing or addressing any one poster, but in a similar vein:

If you disapprove of a particular portrayal that you consider stereotypical, then don't portray YOUR characters that way.

Here's an example:

In the bookshop where I used to work, there were thousands of romance novels.

Almost all of those, I'm sure, are about a woman finding her perfect man & eventually living happily ever after. Men have great crushing arms, women faint into them. Some are more modern, some historical, some fluffy, some more street-wise, but they're all about a romantic ideal.

Lots of women love 'em, & why not?

If you think there's more to life than just romance, then fair enough, you might be happier in General Fiction, where you'll find stories with less pat endings, not always happy, & sometimes without any romance to speak of, but maybe more about women having successful careers, making life-saving discoveries, improving their minds...

But does the existence of romance novels belittle women?

Should they not exist? Who are we to judge!

If you think some styles of art, literature or erotica are bad, then produce something better, but don't waste your time creating nothing, just complaining that you don't like the way things are.

People who create photo-stories (which is really what we're talking about here, right? Because that's where we learn most about the life-stories of other peoples' dolls, yes?) are doing so to entertain themselves & others with similar interests.

Not everybody shares the same tastes, of course, but once again, imagine yourself in the big bookstore.

Don't want to read a lesbian romance? Think that the plotline is trashy & the characters are stereotypes? Why not put that down & try another title?

And here's the bottom line.

Most of us are NOT professional writers. Some of us are, of course, & there are a LOT of talented amateurs, too, but don't expect high art from everyone! Some can express themselves clearer than others. Some people are sharing their fantastical creations for the first time.

Some of us have very different tastes to others. We are all ages & walks of life. The only thing we have in common is our love of dolls.

This means that we're bound to rub up against people we don't agree with, but one of the best things about this forum is how we all manage, for the most part, to get along.

My elderly aunt once asked me if I didn't think it was a problem that there was so much pornography on the internet.

I replied that no, I thought the internet was a great place for pornography to be, because if you don't want to look at it, you just don't have to.

Lucy

 

Dolls for me have nothing to do with reality - i know real from fantasy and my doll are simply an interest i have. I like to design patterns and sew clothes for them, make their wigs, do make-ups on them and take their photographs and whack em on here..............sorry, nothing deep and meaningful about these dolls for me - which is'nt to say i don't love them in an odd way cos i do, i would'nt pay the huge amounts of money for them if i did'nt.

It never crosses my mind to question the meaning behind owners pics of their dolls cross dressing, having same sex relationships, wearing S&M gear etc etc - for all we know, someone who we think is a 15 year old female could in fact be a 48 year old man living out his fantasies through dolls and DoA and to be honest i could'nt give a flying fart.

For me dolls are just fun and i am sure that this is true for a lot of other people here - so in answer to your question No and Not a bit.

Who knows what reality is anyway - this could all be a Matrix moment could'nt it?

 

I think you missed my point.

I'm not saying that yaoi isn't a fantasy, or whatever. What I'm criticizing is the perception that it's "egotistical" for a gay to be offended by yaoi because he says that it perpetuates a stereotype.

All literature - high literature, "fluff" literature, even fanfiction molds how we perceive the world. That's why censorship, and the power to censor, is such an enormous issue.

If people want to read yaoi, if people want to read porn, that's not my problem. I honestly don't care. But you can't dismiss what people in the gay community say offends them as pure ego, because lets face it; a majority of published work that depicts gay men is coming out from the manga corridor right now, especially in Japan. And on the internet, the number of yaoi that gets pumped out a day is vast. If people in the gay community are offended, you can't blame it on ego so that you don't feel bad. Recognize that it offends them, and move on.

I gave the example of one Japanese intellectual, but I know from literary critique and revue (it's my line of work) that other gay men feel the same way. Is it a majority of the population? Who knows? But that's the published work that's coming out. If someone disagrees within the gay community, they haven't written anything about it yet.

 

Wow. I wish I had time to have read everything written about Japanese porn within the gay community. I'm sure that would be an entertaining few months...

Some people are offended. Unless they launch a huge campaign against that kind of erotica/porn, I don't see how that affects EVERYBODY.

And if anyone DOES launch a huge campaign against consensual-sex stories between legally-mature characters, I'll be the first to lift high the banner saying "Each to their Own".

Personally, I haven't read any yaoi, as far as I know, although I've read a certain amount of soft-core gay-romance fan-manga. I'm just a big fan of free speech, so I'm also interested to read this one article you place so much importance on.

As someone actually has carried banners, & been an active member in the bisexual community, I'm not offended by femme-y boys in what, from the little I've seen, are romance stories.

Aren't we taking ROMANCE STORIES a bit too seriously here?

Do I need to find articles about people not being offended to balance out the one article found thus far by someone who was offended?

That's a lot of gay people to question, & how many times do you actually hear from those who aren't bothered about a topic, compared to those who feel strongly?

Lucy

 

Exactly why things like this race/sexual orientation/gender/etc… cant have a definitive answer. What I see to be offensive can be totally passed over by someone else.

I have found a lot of things that “offend” me to some extent on this forum, but I have allowed it to just ‘brush away’ if you will, because for the most part I want to assume the poster is not in anyway trying to be offensive.

I do think the dolls shape what we think are realities are, like when we were children and we would have our stuffed animals and we would talk to them and have others talk to them like they are “real”. But as we get older we grow “sense” of the world and can separate reality from fantasy. But that doesn’t mean that either fantasy or reality cant have similarities, as long as we know the difference.

And to VAE.. you sound like the Architect from the Matrix!! So cute!! I felt like I was surrounded by tvs!! (I’m can be such a dork!! )

 

The article is written by Sato Masaki and is titled ヤオイ何って死んでしまえばいい, translated roughly as "That Yaoi May Die".

I don't know if you can find it in English, but I found a summary.

 

Interesting. Although I think it's pretty harsh to have a go at 'dirty old men' for watching girl/girl porn.

He sounds a bit bloody reactionary & disapproving.

I don't begrudge anyone their tastes in porn, so long as it's consenting adults, etc.

I've seen some girl/girl porn made by men with very little idea what two girls can get up to, & I laughed like a drain, but wasn't offended.

Saying that seeing only "idealised" images of gay sex is somehow terrible because ugly people have sex too, or something, is very funny indeed!

Porn is always showing a narrow view of sexual attractiveness, unless you hunt hard for something really specific.

I've certainly seen covers of yaoi mags featuring super-macho guys as well as ones with girly-looking ones, too.

That's just porn for ya! If you want to avoid seeing orange-tanned beach-bunnies going at it, then go look for amateur stuff, or stick to the written word

Poor guy. Slinging mud at how some girls get their jollies in the privacy of their own homes.

Thanks for the quote!

Lucy

 

Yes, dolls! Oooh, yes! I like my fantasy characters to look purposefully fantastic.

My dark-skinned elf girl has red hair & green eyes: she's an old roleplay character I created years ago, because I thought it was a shame that all the elves in fantasy stories seemed to be portrayed as fair-skinned, so a non-Caucasian elf seemed like a great idea, & having unlikely-coloured hair & eyes just went well with that, too.

My drow girl is meant to have coal-black skin, but I ended up making her more blue, because, perhaps oddly, I always found the concept of a black-skinned, white-haired fantasy race a bit strange... paradoxical, I know, but maybe I just ran into one too many badly blacked-up white live-action roleplayers, who just looked a bit daft to me. Making her more blue made her more of a fantasy creature.

Oh, & I'd love human non-Caucasian dolls, too, if I had the cash! I itch to see more realistic black characters, with dark eyes & beautiful natural hair or dreads.

I guess my fantasy, if I have one, played out in my dolls, is the infinite variety I enjoy in humans.

Lucy