Dollzone Originality - Discuss it here.

If it says that the patent is pending, though, doesn't that mean the patent hasn't fully gone through yet? I've wondered it for a while, and I've always felt too dumb asking the question, but if it's really in the *process* of being patented, wouldn't the patent have not gone through yet? and therefore wouldn't there NOT be a full-fledged patent on it?

EDIT: I totally misread that top and I just now noticed the thing about the idea of the patent being pending in the US. I still sorta support dollzone. There's so much that I need to see to be fully convinced about current copying. Or how different it is from other bodies. I mean, I've seen a few bodies that could convince me that certain companies are copying or at least borrowing a lot of their designs that make it that much easier for people to get clothes for dolls with and I swear this all made sense in my brain it's just articulating it that sucks.

 

But patent is not universal. You must patent in every country, right?

So, for this to be "patent pending" I wonder... is this the English side? Hasn't it been patented in Japan?
(Yes, pending = no patent yet.)

 

I was specifically reffering to the US patent office. I'm not contending that it isn't patented in Japan.

But gauging from the info you posted from the Volks site the "joint sheets" would need to be present in the DZ doll for it to be infringing on KIPS as the "joint sheets" sound like they make up an integral part of the design.

 

Hm. Then I do not know.

 

Also, it said that since the SD16 was announced, so it could very well be that the patent has already gone through by now.

 

I didnot think of this! Thinking now, Volks would probably not pursuit lawsuit if the patent was not whole, right? I wish I knew patent law!

 

When I searched the US patent site the only thing I got for the search term "Volks" was the link I posted a couple pages back. I'm pretty sure if the patent had gone through it would be on the patant site. These things take a lot of time to be processed. It's a bureaucratic nightmare I'm sure.

 

But that was only for the US. Volks may not have patented it in the US.

 

It says joint sheets and joint balls....I assume working in conjunction with one another? I've never seen a SD16 in person so I wouldn't know how the joint structure is exactly.

 

It's possible that it's patented in Japan, but only still pending in the U.S. Or maybe they haven't filed a U.S. patent yet.

 

I'd like to second that in other hobbies I've been involved in, copying isn't as big of deal. As somone on the DZ thread pointed out, when you see an expensive designer outfit that you'd like to have, you go down the street to Target and find a similar outfit that mimics the original but is just different enough to get away with the copy, that won't empty out your pocketbook. Unless you buy only original designer clothing, everyone is guilty of this to some degree.

ETA: And no, they're really not that different of a situation. Most dolls are commodities similar to Thomas Kinkade prints, rather than Monet originals or Picasso originals. Notice I said most.

 

I'm not entirely sure of your argument here - are you saying that copying is acceptable in other hobbies/areas of life, and it should be acceptable here also?

I don't know if you mean to, but you make it sound as though the fashion designer/high street war is something that everyone is okay with, and that it's the status quo, whereas that's not the case at all - piracy of design is taken extremely seriously by the designers, and they have really started to fight back and take action now that it's become so prevalent. For example, the Council of American Fashion Designers has recently been lobbying your Congress with a mind to getting a 3-year copyright for each of their designs, and I believe that our UK equivalent will be doing something very similar. They're not taking it lying down, and nor are the doll companies involved here. I think we should do the same.

I'm not sure that I agree with your assertion that everyone has bought a knock-off designer outfit at some point in their life. The example is misleading - are we talking about outfits that are honestly just inspired by current runway trends (similar material, general style, but in no way identical) or about complete knock-offs, which are practically no different to the original in look (although the quality may be suspect). If the former, then I agree - most high street shoppers will buy things like this, but they are perfectly acceptable and are not copies. If the latter, I disagree entirely. There are not as many direct copies as you seem to be suggesting, and not as many people buying them.

I think the clothing industry case has many parallels with the doll one. Almost all our dolls are inspired by another type, whether it be early bisque and ball-jointed dolls, or other modern companies' dolls, etc. This is acceptable and usual in every walk of life, in every hobby. What is not acceptable is the direct copy, and this is what we are all debating here.

I hope you'll forgive me for such a long reply, but it sounds to me as though you are condoning copying, or at least saying that "it happens everywhere, so we should just ignore it". Given your earlier replies to this thread, I'm a bit confused, because I didn't think this was your opinion!

 

I was trying to point out the ways in which the doll fandom is *different* from many other fandoms/walks of life, sorry if that wasn't clear, and I'm still going with the idea that Dollzone may not be aware of how serious the accusations against them are in the fandom because copying is so widespread in *other* industries, such as the fashion industry.

IE, I have a pair of payless shoes that are essentially brown versions of a pair of far more expensive Coach shoes. Such a thing is accepted in shoe manufacturing. I can go into Icing and buy rhinestone copies that seem to almost have been taken directly from the jewlery seen in Vogue. In the doll fandon, however, a doll that was exactly the same as another doll except for maybe a small change in the eyes would be highly suspect and greatly debated.

So yeah, I'm still trying to bolster the idea that Dollzone isn't willingly wringing their hands together going "Who can we rip off for profits today? Mwaa haa haa!" but that, perhaps, since their parent company is relatively new to the BJD world, they might not be familiar with the fact that the dynamics of copying in this fandom are different from they would be in textiles or normal toy manufacturing. (Think about how many cheap dolls out there look like they wish they were a Barbie or a Bratz doll).

What I am saying is not "Everyone copies, I condone it," because I won't buy any Dollzone doll I have my own doubts about the originality of. What I am saying is "Everyone copies, so maybe Dollzone thinks they can too."

 

I think we also need to make a distinction between "whats legal" and what "people get away with". One of my friends was mugged a few weeks ago, someone put something against her head (she didn't think it was a gun) and ran off with her purse. He'll probably never get caught, never be charged, but it doesn't mean its legal.

People get away with knockoffs for several reasons. One would be that the company doesn't know about them. Another reason would be that the company doesn't have the resources to procecute them, or can't gather enough evidence too. If its not on a large scale, they might not think its worth it to procecute. An example might be an ebay vender, they may get the vender to stop selling on ebay, but they may not be able to find out where the items were being manufactured to shut down the actual production.

Most shoes I've seen copies of haven't been exact copies with the logo on them. They'll just be in a similiar style. With clothing it tends to be the pattern, logos, and not the style, thats protected.

 

On the fence about this arguement, like...totally >_< I don't know who did what, who didn't do what, and I won't be buying from the company based on this crazy controversy alone. Sticky joints, smaller head, leaning back doll, kicking doll, those are all fixable or acceptable problems to me. Spending such big cash on something that might be a ripoff isn't. For that kind of money, it won't be worth it! There's lots of dolls from other brands that aren't as questionable, have people to speak for their quality, and are only a couple hundred more - well worth the extra money for originality/quality assurance. And that's my final word on it (although Alex even commented on it in his blog *snickers*).

That said, looks like they are on Ebay already. Here's one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/DollZone-New-1-3-Boy-Doll-Cloud-Double-Joint-BJD-70cm_W0QQitemZ270004783091QQihZ017QQcategoryZ84635QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Still no body images. That is a little suspicious, if you ask me. But it could just be because of the pressure from Volks and the controversy. No clue, personally, so don't tag me as being on either side, please! XD

 

I just wanted to say that the Lynn/Woori reminder in the beginning of this thread has clarified something for me in kind of a funny way...I painted a head for someone a few months ago and I forgot if they told me who the sculpt was, so I started looking around at sculpts, saw Woori and thought ah, it's a CP Woori. So that's what I wrote in my gallery.
It's Lynn. :P Now I realize it because the doll's name was Lynn, and I hadn't remembered the Dollzone deal at that point. ^^;; Gotta go change the caption. Doesn't really matter, I wouldn't refuse to paint one (though I wouldn't buy one).

Also, just a reminder that we're talking about actual copying/tweaking sculpts, not influence or coming up with a similar design after seeing someone else's. From the pics, I think it's totally possible that DZ did direct-copy the Yukinojo sculpt and changed a few things, lengthened the legs, etc. It may or may not be in accordance with the '30% different' deal, which I don't personally condone anyway. But there's no proof, and there won't be until Volks finishes up their lawsuit or someone finds something out on Dollzone's end - has anyone gotten any statement from them about it? idrisfynn's question is a really valid one for me, too.
But there's no point in saying it's impossible; the similarities are there and DZ's done it before. It shouldn't be ignored, either; I don't like the idea of encouraging that sort of behaviour, if it is in fact true. But instead of getting up in arms, buyer against buyer, over, there should perhaps be more discussion of what, specifically, might be a productive/effective/ideal thing to do as a body of people, were the allegations true. maybe there should be some kind of formal statement issued to Dollzone expressing civil disappointment and discouragement from doing such things again? I don't know. I doubt there's much for us to do about it either way, unless there's some kind of boycott staged, and it likely won't get to that.

 

I like this idea, of telling DZ. Maybe its like someone said before, they don't know we don't like copy?