Dollzone Originality - Discuss it here.

Just quoting myself for emphasis here, since my post was in the other thread:

I'd like to see a closeup of the DollZone mini foot to see if it also matches up to the SD13 sculpt. It's already been speculated that at least part (if not most/all) of the mini bodies may have been cast + shrunk from SD13 bodies, so... =^^=;

 

I'm sorry for being daft, but can you explain this. >_<; It's not being marketed under being counterfeit, and this is illegal? Is that what you mean? Sorry! If it was said it was counterfeit, it's legal to sell? Thanks. ^__^

Some of the differences being pointed to aren't big enough differences. We've all seen Y!J mods~ The School A Chihuahua, elf ears, things being shaved, or making things bigger. Not 'having a little dip in the knee' isn't a difference that proves innocence, it's a difference that is easily made by adding there a little. People on the board have changed finger positions with heat, DZ could too. (although I'm saying nothing about the hands, the comparison photos have a hand pointed the wrong direction, so I can't judge)

And I don't even see when copying would ever be something acceptable. Aimee made an excellent post not too long ago about it.

(^mainly a response of what was said in the comparison thread, but the discussion belongs here^)

And a small muse on my part: When a jury is able to decide, will they have the proper background of sculpting/at least the BJD easability of modding knowledge? At least enough to really understand the possibilities? How can we really trust it, and it sounds like DZ believes they've found enough legal loopholes to sell it and be alright. Is it true? I mean, the courts have been wrong before (err, OJ Simpson trial to be the best example, although not related) so I guess upon reflection, it boils down to what we believe as the customers, and not what the courts will say. Our decision of who we believe and should support.

I think that after the Woori copy, DZ proved themselves a company with no morals, and the bodies are awefully similar to me. TOO similar. But even if they weren't copies for some reason, I wouldn't buy from them anyway because of the past.

 

I feel like I'm just adding insult to injury, but I love my doll so I just don't care anymore.

Here's a pic of my DZ Megi's foot:


With Flash


And without flash

(Edit: Sorry, its turned the wrong way, but you get my drift. Feel free to use them for any speculation or refrences that you may have. I don't care.)

 

I'm sorry to post this but... I don't think we can say it is or isn't copied. you may believe that it's obvious but I personally don't. I'm not saying that it is or it isn't. But I don't think anyone in this thread has the ability to say that it's obviously one way or the other. Everything right now is speculation and opinion. We do have a few people who actually own both dolls and have seen some comparasen shots. However photos can be misleading.

As everyone on this board who owns dolls knows, dolls don't look the same in photos as in real life. This also means that sometimes two different head molds even can look similar in photos and entierly different in reality. Also if taken from just the right angle it's possible to make curves look prominant when they arn't and dull down angles that are rather drastic in real life.

My point is that since most of the people in this thread haven't seen both dolls in person side by side, we can't say that it's one thing or thing other. We can just say what we think.

I think both sides have been rather closed minded in this discussion for the most part. Not in all cases by far, but I've seen a lot of people taking sides as if they know the facts of the matter.

And even the people who have seen both dolls next to eachother and inspected them don't know 100% for sure. Just they have the best ability to see if it really does look the same and have a lot of actual similarities that are really close to a copy.

Someone mentioned courts screwing up? We also don't know the whole truth about those high profile court cases. We just see what the media shows us. And the media tends to portray a certain image. That image can be right, but it can also be wrong. Untill you've seen all the evidence and heard the arguments it's impossible to come to a reasonable conclusion that has any real bearing on the actual situation.

Also, I know that I've posted in this thread before stating that my opinion based on the pictures is that I don't think it looks like a copy. And also you can find someway to make something what you want to see no matter what it is if you really want to see it badly enough. Which means all the arguments about how you can modify things annoys me. Yes, you can change things, but once it's gotten to the point of accusing a company of reforming the whole doll it starts to get a bit ridiculus. I'm not saying it's gone that far yet, but it almost got there before people solidified on only saying that they may have copied the joints.

Anyway I'm getting off topic. Yes I've posted before, but I've also stated it as an opinion. Just because I believe something doesn't make it true. It's just what I think from what I've been presented. This is true of everyone. Just because you believe that these are copies doesn't make them so. Just like believing that they arn't doesn't mean that they arn't.

Also, back to the original post I was responding to: Isn't that just as bad as saying "This looks the same to me... SO IT MUST BE A COPY!" and ignoring any differences?

 

I know a few people are going that the courts will screw up and justice isn't always served so why does it matter what the courts rule? I agree that the law has loopholes that people often manipulate but if you ignore the results of a legal suit based on your personal opinion, then what's the difference from going out and and shooting a man judged innocent based on a biased opinion that he's guilty? If everyone does that, then we must as well not have any laws in place. While the legal system might suck, at the moment, it is one of the things that we still depend on so that we don't go rampaging on the streets as blinded vigilante.

I think DeadLegato actually brought up a very good point about imposing opinions on others. It's easy for individuals to go 'it's obvious that it's a copy' or 'it's obvious there are differences' and not realize that no, it really isn't all that obvious to everyone else in the world. Everything is based on photos, an individual's perception, different point of views. That's why we're all different, think differently and not carbon copies of each other.

This is a general discussion area for discussing thoughts and airing out opinions, especially differing thoughts and opinions. We shouldn't expect or demand that everyone else think like we do.

 

QFE.

I was actually thinking something along the same lines while I was at work today. This topic is seriously irking me beyond what anything involved in any sort of fandom should. It's reverting our mentalities to those of children and it's undoubtably become the subject of both frustration and agression as both sides have strong, and obviously well-founded feelings on the subject.

I'd almost wish, however, that many things be left as is as it's now come down to civil bickering as I've observed since the topic was reopened. This is between Volks and Dollzone, after all, and I don't believe that we shall sway the opinions of anyone one way or another.

 

Hound has completely different shoulder, elbow and knees....
I can see the difference even though I have no idea about sculping what so ever.

 

I'm not certain what exactly you're confused about. There are two types of knock-offs in the retail world. One is a phony being sold as though it were the original. This is quite obviously against the law. The other type is a copy of an original which is then marketed as being original under another name. This is where legal battles ensue and percentages of originality are introduced, etc., patents are called into question and experts in duplication are consulted.

 

Yeah, the locking is really what's putting me off. That and the almost non functional ankle joint that all the larger Volks pureskin dolls have. If he has the "butt shelves" in the tops of his thighs I will consider him a copy simply for the identical use and execution of the volks mechanisms. Sure he LOOKS alike but as others are saying, he's not a "carbon copy."

Does the DZ have the locking butt shelves? If you don't understand what I mean I can get a shot of them from and SD10 I'm babysitting. Also, how do DZ's hands and feet attach?

Excellent pictures though ^_^ They're quite helpful!

 

does anyone even know if they have gone to court yet?

 

Oooh, DZ dramaz. Or not...

My 2 cents on the matter, from a slightly different stand point:

My father works in China as the US rep (kinda) for a fireworks company there. Along with doing that, he designs things like firing systems for the fireworks (a lot of the firing is done electronically these days, using fairly simple mechanisms), comes up with new product names, and generally works to make his company's products more saleable in the US market. In particular, they produce a firing system that he designed and a lot of other companies have very quickly come up with very similar firing systems, because my dad's worked really well. And, as you probably know, all fireworks that are mass-marketed to the public pretty much have the same names and very similar packaging, despite being from a variety of companies. As he explained it to me, in China, they don't tend to do a lot of inovative work when it comes to manufacturing things. Instead, they will look at what is already sucessful and try to copy it as closely as possible without getting sued. From what I understand, this is considered normal and sound business practice.

In general, I think there's a slightly different mindset over there, with how they do business, and that has to be kept in mind.

Also, now that I've seen Yukinojo and the DZ 1/3 next to each other, it seems obvious to me that while they did copy Yukinojo's general design, they still had to put forth the work to make the original, as the DZ's are quite a bit taller than him.

Personally, this doesn't bother me, but I can understand how some people would be bothered. I think it's down to personal taste...



All that blathering aside, this is quite a useful thread - I'm really glad it was put up. It's always so hard to invision how tall a doll actually is, even though they've all got their heights listed on their respective websites.

 

Sadly, that does help. If Joe has those same hooks and locks, the same as every other pureskin volks doll, then I have to say Dollzone at the very least copied exactly the joint structure of the Volks dolls. I've never seen another company make use of the butt shelves. Pulled apart like that he looks far too close to the SDC and 60cm volks dolls I've restrung for me to trust dollzone with a clean conscience.

Here's what I mean. (Elle, if you would like me to remove these, please let me know.)

ALL, and I do mean all, pureskin volks 60cm dolls share these traits. These are done with a pureskin SD10 girl body, but they are standard across the board.


Butt shelves.


To aid in sitting


Locking knees


Almost non functional ankle joints to aid in stability.


Very high back knee arches to aid in posing and sitting


Very high hip arches and long hip slots to aid in posing and sitting


The glorious one touch system



And this knee and overall leg scupt with the high front knee arches dimples, with a clean line running from hip to foot.


Even though this is an SD10 you can see simiarities in structure and sculpt to both Yukinojo and Elle's SD13 boy on the first page. In addition, you can see this doll shares many structural and mechanical characteristics with the DZ 1/3 boy. I have restrung, sanded, handled and generally harrassed nearly every pureskin body style put out by volks and I can assure that each of these are shared across the board with the 60cm Dollfies, and the majority are shared by ALL pureskin volks dolls produced.

I've yet to see any other company utilize ALL of these features in one doll. Especially a doll that is incredibly close aesthetically to another volks doll.


Thanks for all your pictures and patience, Elle. It's much appreciated!

 

DZ&#65292;that is veryvery regret company for me&#65281;

 

I'd like to throw my own two cents in too. I hope I don't offend, but it seems that most claim that those locking mechanisms are a Volks-only concept. I thought the 'butt-shelf' was an innovation of the Unoa. Those shoulder sleeves were started with the Cerberus Project bodies (CP/Delf/Luts), right? Well, my Domuya D-One standard body has identical 'butt-shelves' and multi-part wrist and ankle joints, I guess what is called the 'one-touch system'. His knee parts are jointed a bit differently, but use essentially the same style of locking joint, just with the ball-portion attached to the theigh, and the cup to the lower leg. My DOD sha also has locking knee joints just like the Volks single-jointed knees.

I must say, I do love the new dollzone body. It always frustrated me that I really couldn't ever get the opportunity to buy a SD16 body due to their limited availability. Now my dear boy can be as beautiful and flexible as I've dreamed. I really find their sculpt to be quite beautiful. It's amusing too just how large his hands are. It's so hard to find shoes to fit those feet! I would say that the pinky-toe is so squished was probably a last-minute modification to help their feet fit into hound-sized shoes. It seems so incongruous for the pinky to look so odd in compairison with the other beautifully-sculpted toes. I love how they did the nails on both the hands and feet. They actually prodrude beyond the finger tips.

I just find it so frustrating that this environment has turned so firery around the new Dollzone dolls. I guess that's why I haven't felt comfortable posting pictures of my new boy here. I'm always afraid of sparking a new war.

 

1. Domuya had Volks dolls in their store before they started to make their own.

2. DoT came out after Volks started making Pureskin dolls and their locking joints.

 

I would like to add a few things if i may. A good friend of mine collects BJDs too and she just recently got her new dollzone Shadow and i was totally floored by this doll. He had a very well sculpted torso which i have to agree with a couple others that it looked better then Yukinojos. I like the slimmer look and for as tall as these dolls are they are well purportioned. Also i think the SD16 are bulk and yes they do pose well from what i heard. I decided to save up and buy their Cloud boy because i fell in love with him the moment i saw him on their web site.
They also make excellent companions for the dollshe Hounds and other boys of their types because of their size. The only problem i think i am going to run into is clothes for them unless some of the dollshe hound items fit.

 

i think it is okay for other companies to get ideas from other companies. a lot of companies have copied unoa's covered knee joint and face-plate idea. these dolls are just as beautiful, artistic, and popular as unoa is.

 

I do not think this adds to the thread much at this point. But currently, I do own both Yukinojo and Wing (one of the 1/3 dolls from Dollzone), and they are too similar for me to the point I am selling Wing for sure and probably Yukinojo as well. It's my fault that I did not do enough research beforehand, but being the type who ended up staying away from Unoa for a while after Narin Doll issue, I simply cannot look at them straight peacefully. Since the situation would have been different had I read this thread, this bump hopefully serves as something to somebody else. (This probably sounds too much, but I actually thought about destroying Wing at one point, and do not want any other owner/doll to go through the same thing.)

 

Honestly, I don't understand what the big fuss is about. When I buy a doll, the body isn't nearly as important to me as the face. The body is usually hidden by clothes, but the face is what I find striking. And, personally, I love almost every Dollzone head sculpt and dislike many of the Volks headsculpts. Just my own, personal preferences. I would never buy a Volks, not because I don't like the body or the company, but because I don't like the faces.

Seeing 25 pages of this back and forth arguement about Dollzone upsets me and if DZ was ever banned from the forum, it would make me very upset, but I would assume the mods had their reasons. My next doll is going to be a DZ Mo, by the way.

As far as I see it, if Volks wants to get uppity about Dollzone, then they may as well sue every doll company. Afterall, Volks is the "original" and any other would be a copy under that logic.

Perhaps Dollzone tried various different jointing mechanisms and chose the one they did as the one that worked best for them. Does it really make a difference? They are an original company with very unique head sculpts and I like them.

It has been brought up before, but there was a person who sculpted over a pre-existing head and sold casts of it. You can say it is different, but I don't see it as such. According to the pictures posted, DZ, if they did copy Volks, made modifications to the sculpt. Is that not what that DoA member did?

I see a double standard here.

Sorry if that is seen as off topic, but it was just an example of another case.

That's just my opinion on the situation and that is what most of this thread appears to be - opinions. Perhaps I just don't see as a "rip off" because I am a head buyer, not a body buyer.

 

Actually, the person who sculped over the head changed it to the point where it was unrecognisable as the original head, thus making it unique and different, and not a copy according to the copyright laws. They only used the head as a very basic base for the new idea they had.

The original DZ copy was infact identical to the doll it was copied from. Nothing had been changed at all.

These therefore are not a double standard.

The new DZ heads appear entirely unique, and the only real issue seems to be the bodies. However, until such time as they are proven by law to be copied, they should be treated as original IMO.