Dollzone Originality - Discuss it here.

Actually, I'm going to remove my lil' comment... because I personally don't think it's appropriate to discuss the matter of the head sculpt of said-person. (I also believe the mods asked us to not discuss that, either..)

 

Joints joints joints...

Lets ALL forget that 99.9% of 'regular' BJDs have identical jointing systems. My Asha's wrist joints look exactly like my Ttori's. OH NO, DOLLMORE COPIED CP'S WRIST BALLS.

It's like... Belks has a section of terrycloth fabric rectangles designed to dry your body. Oh WOW, Walmart has a section of terrycloth fabric rectangles for drying your body, they must have copied!

Besides, Volks copied Dollshe's double joint/70cm idea.

 

Actually... ... If I remember correctly the double jointing system is called duplex... it can be seen in action figures. Volks has it in their 1/6 neo-guy body.

I think dollshe did not copy volks and volks did not copy dollshe

 

In action figures, sure, but Dollshe was the first to put it in a 70cm doll, which is why I squished the two together ^^

 

didn't the german doll makers make these doll in the first place anyway?
way back when before the volks sisters were even thought of and for that matter even their great grandparents.

 

Ok Seriosly, people always want diversity in life. Diversity can't come without some form of copying or chosing to take something you don't like and go the exact opposit way, obviously to have a fandom full of so many choices it all had to come from the same inspiration.

Isn't there a thread here about how the trend of doll sculpts has shifted from anime character-like faces to more human faces? Has anyone done any research there into any comparisons? Or is it a good thing because we have face sculpts that we love and they're available from so many companies?

I have a Mythdoll or two and they have little locking knee joints (which i've yet to see brought up here) But someone at a meet up informed me that that joints was similar to a volks joint. I have no idea if it's a copy because i'm not personally partial to volks but hey, i really love that little joint!
I'm just saying there has to be some sort of deviation from the original for other people's ideas to show, so that we can have choices, and that's in any case, not just dolls and as soon as the originality is threatened people start to look for comparisons on purpose >.>;

One more thing... Maybe someone who actually makes doll can answer this but how easy is it to take a doll and just stretch it out to make a copy? If that's infact the worry here, can it even really be done without a massive resculpting? Or do people who don't scuplt just have irrational worries over the comparisons?

 

I've been putting off saying anything but..

my own feet actually look a lot like the dollzone 70cm guy feet (just fatten them up and its a perfect match), yes real peoples toes do bend that way, I don't think my feet or the dollzone feet are so unusual they must have been copied, even if they are 'ugly'

 

It would eb very easy- I've done it with action figures.

All it requires is sawing through, say, the lower leg piece, adding in a bit of length with sculpting clay, reattatchignt he two parts and repeating with the upper part of the leg too. Then, you do the same to the other leg, and you have made both legs longer. The onyl resculpting necessary would be to blend the new parts into the old.

Once that is done, you would make a mould and recast the new parts.

Repeating this procedure with the arms would prevent the doll or model looking freakishly out of proportion.

 

LOL.

there are tons of really artistic creative people in the world who can sculpt a doll , easy. so why go to all the trouble to just chop one up and but bits in here and there.

i have to go to a meet up and see some of this copy work, cause from photo's i just don't see it. seems like dz is getting bashed for that one doll they put out in the beginning.

everyone copied the germans.

 

I think she meant unsusual, as in most doll companies have sculpted fairly straight toes. Not that the shape itself is unusual to a real life comparison. For two companies to choose to curl the same toes the same directions is an interesting point to consider.

 

That's the whole point- I don;t think the DZ head or the MSD bodies ARE copies.

The only thing with DZ that is in dispute, legally, is the 1/3 size body. Nothing else is being questioned or disputed between any of the actual companies involved. All the heads seem fine. And until the legal dispute is over, I would say it is unwise to say the 1/3 body IS a copy, becuase we just don;t know. It does look very similar to the Volks SD16, but we are not lawers, and even those of us who are, we are not the lawyers involved.


The first DZ dolls were copies. This undeniable, and they were stopped. The new ones (ie- the ones for sale now) are not.

 

I do think that in the past Dollzone did something illegal, I however think maybe they used the Yukinojo (( or however the dang thing is spelled)) as a bit of a reference point in sculpting their 1/3 dolls. I do not think that just because they us three piece knee-joints, that thy are copying, it's been said before hounds and Narin have them too. I do not want a bigger doll, but really like their MSD boys in fact I'm getting a Mo soon. I think the company is now trying to salvage it's sullied reputation and provide BJD fans a more reasonable alternative to volks and such. Much the way DOD did, alot of the new companies come under fire from Volks elitists who are OMG IT'S NOT VOLKS IT MUST BE A COPY! I'm so freaking tired of it all, I like wing and I think he is much more in proportion and scale and such then Yukinojo. He's better looking and in my mind just as good, if not better...


just my .02

 

At what point does one distinguish between 'Copy' and 'Inspired by'?
One or two sets of similar joints can be seen as inspired by, but all of them?

I read an interesting point on someone's blog that I came across randomly when I was looking up the Luts bootlegging issue.
The person mentioned bootlegged poor quality BJD dolls sold at toy stalls...
People have no problem criticising them because the quality is so poor that no serious collectors will consider buying them...
It doesn't seem to hurt anyone... apart from the original doll that's dissected and thrown into scilicon

 

I think it's something like 'inspired by' has to be a distinguishable difference of about 30% of the item from the original, according to law.

Or something like that.

It's mentioned somewhere back in this thread, anyway.

 

Something I don't think anyone's brought up in this discussion of who copied what and when and where and how...

Volks got sued themselves (and lost the lawsuit) several several years ago when they were coming out with their EB bodies for their 1/6 scale dolls because they copied Obitsu's design and Obitsu had been the ones to supply them with their 1/6 scale base dolls in the past.

This might seem OT, but the reason I brought this up is because everyone's getting up in arms over how companies who copy are all so bad and whatnot and maybe even should be banned from the forum... and fail to realize that the same criticism should be extended to Volks as well; they have been proven guilty of copying in the past, too, even though it was with a 1/6 doll and not the 1/3 scale.

Just something to chew on?

EDIT: Since someone asked about my sources, I'll try and provide a source and link if at all possible. The first incident happened back in 2002ish and last year around this time, Volks posted on their Japanese language website that they were seeking to repeal the decision of the court that ruled in the favor of Obitsu. Whether or not the appeal happened, I don't know, but that latest article was not only in Japanese but it was a year ago as well so I don't know if I can find it again.

As for the actual DZ copying; I definitely see major similarities with the way the joints were made and if they got sued over that (the KIPS system is patented by Volks, I'm pretty sure?) I would expect them to lose the lawsuit.

Does this make me hate DZ? I'd be disappointed if they did, in fact, copy, but I wouldn't hate them and I might still buy from them and not because I want a Yukinojo lookalike either. If I wanted a Yuki, I would save and buy a Yuki for his own unique Yuki goodness.

Personally, I see DZ as seeing the KIPS system as being a very good idea and wanting to implement something similar in their own dolls, while molding their dolls to better suit their tastes - ie: longer limbs, modded whatevers.

It's hard to believe that they would dare to sell something on the mainstream market if -they- believed that they were truly just directly copying/recasting Volks molds because that is plain marketing and PR suicide; it's a bad move and it just spells trouble.

Just to clarify, it doesn't mean that they didn't copy, however, just because they don't believe they did.

But I think it really comes down to what -they- think is copying versus what Volks thinks is copying.

And what Duae said about the basic joints is true; if this is copying, then what about all the first dolls that came after the very first mass-market BJDs?

They used string, they used ball joints; isn't that a jointing system? Not as elaborate as KIPS for sure, but it's a jointing system all the same and a very specific system for that matter.

Why don't people see THAT as copying? Is it because that type of joint is more general and is used to describe BJDs in general while Yuki's is more specific?

But yeah, I have never heard of anyone wanting to cry foul that BJD companies are copying the original creators/designers of BJDs even though they use the same ball joint and string method.

 

I'm gonna enter my opinion because my Wing will be here Thursday, and I'm more than excited over it.

I've slogged through this whole thread today, and its taken quite a toll on my time and my emotions. I wanted Wing because I saw him and instantly fell in love, there was no question about it, simply "I will have this doll."

I've wanted a larger doll for a while, and was constantly looking at Hounds and other Dollshes, trying to find one that called to me, but I didn't like them, I couldn't. They're very handsome, but they're not for me. I also hated their bodies, new and old, they weren't of a frame that I found appealing. I don't like many volks dolls either, Yukinojo included, again he didn't appeal to me. I had come to the decision that I would have to wait until Model Doll released their boys to see if I would like them, or get a Dollshe and deal with the body after making some modifications to the face. But then the Dollzone 1/3s came out and I was floored. The face, the bodies, they were all perfect. I set my sights on Wing, as he was my favorite out of all of them, and planned on ordering him with my Christmas bonus.

But then all this trouble cropped up. And then the dolls were pulled off the websites because of the hovering patent issues. I was so upset, but then I learned that JunkyDoll had just gotten in a shipment of DZ boys, and my most recent paycheck put me at just enough to order Wing.

It was against everything I had planned, I wanted to order my next mini in early october, but I managed to secure Wing, a doll I truly truly wanted before they maybe dissapeared. Or at least their bodies change.

And now that I've read this whole thread, seen some people's reactions to the alleged copying, and I fell horrible. To think that my boy is going to be judged because he may or may not be a copy, and thus myself judged as well, its disheartening when you consider that this is a community where people are supposed to feel welcome within their hobby.

I do admit to this though. I bought Wing knowing of the problems, so it is a little to be expected yes, but its because I loved him and wanted him so badly that I continued with my purchase. Its not about supporting the company to me, its about obtaining something that I will love and make my own, and I thought that's what this hobby was about.

He may or may not be a copy, I don't know. I don't even own any non-mini dolls to tell you. In the pictures I do seem some similarities here and there and then others I'm stuck wondering where people are reaching their conclusions from, but I don't know jack about molding and casting, so I can't form a valid opinion. All I know is that when he gets here I will love him just as much as my other dolls, and will hopefully be a good "mother" and protect him from any slander that comes our way.

...It got a little sappy at the end there... and quite long. Sorry about that

 

The 1/3 bodies have not been proven as copies.

I think its important for people to remeber that. And RayRay- don;t feel bad. Even if the bodies are proven to be copied you will still have a doll you love. You just might not be able to post pictures of him here, and the mods still havn;t even decided that yet. ^_-

 

I just had to say this. That is just too much drama.

Seriously. Destroy something that you paid 300-400 bucks for because it's 'counterfeit'?

That aside, I just want to clarify something. Are any of the DZ msd heads product of plagarism at all? Not that it matters too much to me, but I bought the discontinued Xi's head, and I'm wondering why was he discontinued.

 

I'm seriously considering buying Wing, in the next couple of weeks, for the same reasons as Ray-Ray. I think he's beautiful, and I don't want to miss my chance at having him. Still though, I would like to know where I can go for legitimate news about this debate. And I very much hope that the mods will allow Wing, Cloud and the others to be posted on this site as they are still ABJD's, not one of them is the same due to owner's customizing, and they are very much beloved.

 

OOT, but would you like to save the poor Wing mentioned above? I'd adopt him, but I'm not for SDs since they make Jade look kiddie-like.