Dollzone Originality - Discuss it here.

I was just kinda stating my observations of the Volks storeworkers I met when I was in Japan this month. I guess I did make it sound like I was stereotyping all Japanese people to be the same as the wonderful people I met in Japan. Please understand, I'm used to very rude service and so by comparison I do still stand by my belief that in general the Japanese work harder and more loyally than Britons. I don't think anyone can dispute that.

 

I have to respond to that... the way you say it, makes it sound like no company has a right to protect their copyrights or designs, because to protect it, or to sue, or persue the person violating their rights would be to "squabble over one idea in an ever changing industry".

I also can't stand the rationalization that people give of "if someone copies you it's a compliment" (ie "If someone makes something similar to what you have made, it stands to reason that what you have made is designed well.") Just because you made something "good enough" to be copied doesn't mean that you don't have a right to protect your ideas.

and... actually, you don't know if Volks is "throwing a fit" as you say it. They could very well still be pursuing the issue, or may have gotten a settlement or any number of resolvements from Dollzone. but if they were still pursuing it, how is that throwing a fit? They would simply be protecting their legal rights (assuming that they believe the doll is a copy).
I love that VOLKS is always improving their joints and improving their dolls, they really do it at a fast rate too, almost every dolpa sees some sort of improvement, and that is really saying something, as it would be easy for them to simply wait longer to release improvements (and make more money from less effort) but they don't. However, to say that just because they are creating new and better things means that somehow they are not allowed to, or aren't pursuing a copyright violation just isn't really sound.

I think a lot of the people applying comments like "japanese people are hard workers", while overgeneralizing, are just trying to think about things from a perspective outside their own (and thus try to give another culture the benefit of the doubt, or try to understand it), which isn't a bad thing. It's easy for us, living in different countries, to look at what occurs from the perspective of our own personal culture. And while obviously everyone in a country is not the same, and doesnt fit stereotypes, there are cultural difference that can make it hard to understand people from other cultures. I'm sure not all americans are brash and rebellious, which is the stereotype that is placed on us by other countries too. But you're right, it's bad to generalize too much.

 

DZ. Sorry. This is a pretty depressing thread.

 

I think it's wonderfult that you had such a good experience in Japan. I suppose I'm more confused by the statement of loyalty to the company that you had seen. Loyalty to VOLKS is a touchy subject, since other brands recieve so little recognition in Japan (Although that is a sign of VOLKS dominating the market in Japan, which is not a bad thing, but just a statement of the market there.), and that has translated sometimes in to elitism in America. I'm not stating that you're an elitist, just that I may have taken your comment in the wrong way, and I apologise for it.
I'm not against good things said about Japanese people ^_^.

 

An example of VOLKS squabbling would have been for them to post a name of a company when asking their costomers to stop buying misrepresented products, if legally they had no outcome to whatever legal issues they were pursuing. That would have been defamation of a company if they had not won their legal proceedings when posting about it. VOLKS has every right to persue a legal outcome from whatever company they feel has wronged them. I assume that they have taken whatever legal action they feel they wish to persue.

I did not say that VOLKS has no right to protect their ideas, I simply stated that they had designed a doll appealing to a large number of people. I also stated that there have been posts that people have made saying that the similarity in jointing systems may be the result of there being only so many ways to design a large doll. I do not know, since I am not an expert at doll design or sculpture. You seem to have mistaken my statement to mean that I advocate stealing of sculpts, when I am merely introducing the idea that the issue of Dollzone SD bodies are still still a matter of debate, legally.

Exactly. I don't know, and neither do you. Until the community hears from either VOLKS or Dollzone, none of us will know.

I also did not say that VOLKS is 'throwing a fit.' you misquote me to support your own argument, but I have only stated that I commend VOLKS for not making a public dennouncement of Dollzone before any legal action has been completed.

Assuming the doll was a copy, yes, they would be protecting their legal rights, but the issue has not been proven either way.

VOLKS has every right to legaly persecute a company, if the company they are bringing the action against, has violated their copyrights. As of yet, we have not seen an outcome either way.

Which is why I try to explain my point of view, rather than saying 'All Americans are stupid for thinking that all Japanese are automaticly hard workers'. Many Japanese are exceptional at math, and many Japanese girls are small willowy beauties, my statement was that an assumption should not be made that simply because a person is Japanese, they would allow their company to infringe on their personal rights.

 

It's very easy to find Leekeworld dolls, Delfs, Pocket Fairies/Tiny Fairies, and Petite Ai mixed in with Super Dollfies on a Japanese doll owner site. Volks has the most physical stores in Japan, but they are far from being the only doll presence there.

 

I've noticed that a lot of Japanese owners that I've talked to in Japanese will usually list the dolls they have VOLKS first, and possibly not mention other dolls. When I tell them I know about other doll brands and own several DoDs, they seem pleasantly surprised. It may just be that the area that I talked to doll owners in, or just the ones I spoke to. A lot of doll owners seem to be relieved to be able to talk about their non VOLKS dolls, which makes me think that the 'do not bring a non-VOLKS doll in to a VOLKS store' envoriment that is fosted among Japanese doll collectors is may be prevalant in Japanese BJD culture.
It would be interesting to see various group interactions among other doll owners in different countries, or the prevalence of a nation maker in their home territory, but that is probably for another thread.

 

It looks to me like CP does it's fair share of borrowing ideas from DZ as well.
Their new Bliss sculpt looks an awful lot lik DZ's Lotus, save for the eye modification:
http://www.doll-zone.com/UserFiles/01(4).jpg
http://doll.luts.co.kr/item-img/SDF_070421-2.jpg

I think no company is entirely original, as has been said before. Please be nice and let the companies themselves sort out the differences/similarities. meanwhile (untill any news gets out officially), we can all enjoy our doll collecting hobby without anyone feeling left out because their doll is a supposed fake/frankendolly/copy. I know this thread is not against people who own DZ dolls, but I did feel sad about reading all the comments and some of the aquisations.

P.s. I recently purchased 3 DZ dolls (together with my mom): 2 BBdolls and 1 1/3 boy. The quality is great, I accidently dropped the boy and one of the babies already, nothing happened. I can't see any cracks or chips. The resin feels and looks as good as the resin of my Angelregion dolls. As for our choice of DZ, they were the only company to sell a 70cm Elf boy and the BB dolls were an impulse buy we don't regret. They also sport a torso joint, which most Tinies do not (that made them stand out for us).

I hope I didn't offend anyone, if so I apologize in advance.

 

Pink I totally hear you!

It's a limited market as far as making doll sculpts.
DZ was my first doll, I loved the mature faces on the 44cm's.

With the companies having their employees quit/go work for another company or for themselves, it's not amazing that from time to time, two companies come out with a doll that looks similar to another.

It's not just BJD companies either. Copies and similar items are found even at the Dollar stores around here. Marketing strives on creating memorable icons to sell/promote their items.

I wasn't here when DZ came out, but it seems like they've worked on creating their own style. I support them as long as they continue to work on progression. If anyone were to come to me saying anything nasty about me having a DZ doll, they are not the doll people I would hang out with anyway...
I don't mesh well with "I have the BEST *whatever* and your's is crap".

 

I noticed the Bliss = Lotus similuarities myself as well. Can we PLEASE close this thread and make one that is for compairing ALL molds vs singling out ONE or two companies.

It saddens me that the mods will allow this thread to continue when it's mainly an attack towards one company vs anything productive.

I already saw one person fear buying a doll they liked because of this thread and the negativity they are seeing from it.

Better threads:
Compairsons of all molds and similuarities/differences.
What legal actions does a company have in regards to copy right and copy right inforcement
Copyright issues and the BJD market, and internatioanl copyright laws.
Information on what Volks is/isn't doing in regards to the specific case of copyrighting.
What to do if you think you own a bootleg head?


The issue on if a person should buy from DZ or trust them and the morals are all based on one's own personal belief system. And having a discussion trying to force your beliefs or moral views in the situation is no good. It's where alot of the negativity in this thread comes from.

-Anneke

 

I agree with one thing- this thread should be closed. This is because we are going around in circles with this topic. The thread is getting more and more OT and no resolution is in sight. I'm working on a bootleg database to help separate
fact from fiction which I hope will help

 

If you want a thread like that why don't you start one? I'm sure it would generate discussion.

The reason why this thread is 'attacking one company' (I actually see attacks on two or more) is because it's a thread discussing Dollzone originality. It says so in the title.

You say, quite correctly, that views should not be be forced on people. If you don't want people being forced into thinking it's fake, fine, I don't see any forcing that way personally though. However, why do some people think it's ok to whitewash Dollzone's past, tell everyone 'they wanted to change for the better' and basically hide what happened? Isn't that in a way forcing a view, by not giving them a choice? Everyone deserves to know the facts. Fact: Lynn is a copy. Fact: Lynn was made by Dollzone. So I wish everyone would stop trying to hide it away.



General statement:
Nearly two years before probably the majority of this entire board joined DoA the copied doll Lynn started appearing here. I don't know how long it was selling in China. For those of us around then the news of that copy is fresh in our minds. We said, this company will be shut down. So when people talk of a sudden rash of allegations it's not that. It's that the copy came out and some of us remember how shocked we were. Those of us who weren't around, I'm sorry I can't explain it well to you. But it was thought that Dollzone as it was then would shut down. It didn't, it just grew into a huge company. Some may see that as unfair when you look at talented dollmakers like Undine who just slipped away, while the company who appeared making copies of at least one other doll is prospering hugely. Perhaps that will give people an insight into why Dollzone remains under suspicion.

I personally believe BB dolls are original. But I also believe the 1/3 boy body is a modified Yukinojo body. I cannot tell anyone for certain that the BB body is original and the 1/3 is fake.



Edit: Another thing I'm curious about. When people say they like a doll, they say something like 'I think she's beautiful' or something similar, right? But when people say they like Dollzone, really often the thing they say first is that they like the quality. An odd thing to mention first. Looks will always be my top reason for liking a doll. So seeing everyone rave about good quality resin or whatever seems so odd to me. (The only Dollzone I ever saw IRL (in a Tokyo shop) looked really...awkward...to me. However it might have been assembled wrong, because the joints didn't seem to fit, and I see photos of Dollzone and the joints look fine in those.)

 

Then state the fact and move on. Make it a sticky if you want it drilled into people's heads. INSTEAD of making this into a thread of witch hunting the company and compairing everything it's done vs anything that may be like something else. If the thread wasn't a witchhunt it would be a proper thread about compairing ALL Dolls to All dolls vs singling out one company.

Your saying people are trying to 'hide' what happen. NO they are not. They just don't feel a need to hold a grudge. (Which is your right to do so). It's not your job to inforce the copy right of the companies, and arguing about it does no good but breed more negativity.


-Anneke

 

Possibly because some owners have had folk tell them their dolls were obviously poor quality due to the price and past transgressions of the company? I don't know -- the first time I took Ilari out in public the first comment I got was on his resin quality, and it was complimentary. I think it's a knee-jerk reaction to past allegations. That's only a guess, mind you, but it kind of makes sense to me, especially since I did see someone mention accusations of using resin fillers somewhere in this thread.

That said -- I like Dollzone's aesthetics. They're very different, and that appeals to me. The other comment I've gotten a lot of is "he's so much cuter than I thought he would be." I'm proud of my boy and his good looks, and I think he's an amazingly appealing little guy, other people's opinions of the company be damned. He took a faceplant onto a brick sidewalk before I got him, and the only damage he shows for it is a tiny chip on his nose that you have to be actively hunting for to find. He's a little kicky, but I'm planning on taking him apart and sueding and restringing him and that should solve the problem (as soon as I figure out how the heck to get his headcap off ).

I won't weigh in on the question over whether or not the 70cm DZ boy body is a copy of the Yukinojo. I've never seen nor handled a Yukinojo body in person, and I would have to have both side by side in my hands to even remotely pass an opinion because the pictures -- to me -- seem highly inconclusive. Maybe it's my eyes. Maybe it's my innate skepticism and my desire to always see for myself before I pass judgement. I personally don't see them as being startlingly similar, no more than any case of parallel engineering. The mini bodies don't seem like copies of anything to me, though -- if they were I'd have an easier time finding clothes that fit him.

 

what i'm wondering is, why is this thread not only open but still located in General Discussion? why has it not been relocated to Dolly Debate where it belongs? no one is arguing whether Lynn was a copy anymore; that's old news. the topic of the thread has become Volks' and Dollzone's relative integrity and Yukinojo's body as compared to the DZ 1/3rds. these subjects are controversial, not factual, and belong in Dolly Debate.

 

If this thread is not closed, it certainly should be moved to Dolly Debate.

 

As a newbie, I have to admit that resin dolls of similar sizes kind of blur into groups to me - it's only rarely that a doll seems memorable to me as an individual mold. Lots of skinny girls, sometimes with big breasts and sometimes with small ones, but never, so far as I've seen, with curving thighs and stomachs (and how I wish someone would make one! Or a child doll with proper little-girl big belliedness), lots of girlie boys with lippy pouts, lots of sharp-nosed boys, lots of cute round-faced tinies... I see so many big, pretty eyes and skinny bodies that they all kind of, um, blur. I think originality is a much wider problem than singling out a single company.

The fact is, that's what sells, so that's what people will make. These are businesses, catering to a homogenous consumer group who want dolls that fit a really narrow aesthetic.

And it's not as if ball jointed, strung dolls were a Japanese or Korean recent innovation, anyway. There are so many beautiful antique composition dolls, and I'm sure they were used as "inspiration", and that Volks, for example, made no attempt to seek out the families of old German toymakers to pay them compensation for their ideas.

Actual bootlegs are one thing, if proved, but drawing inspiration from another company seems to me to be an industry wide practice. It should come down to different companies competing with each other on the basis of the individual beauty and qualitiy of the dolls in conjuction with, yes, price. Price actually is a relevant factor. Being able to supply dolls at a reasonable price for what they are is part of what companies should be trying to do.

If all the dolls are so similar and some companies can produce practically the same item so much more cheaply, then surely it will result in positive change for the industry as a whole?

Disclaimer: I own neither DZ nor Volks dolls, nor are they even on my shortlist of wanted dolls.

 

Fact: Lynn has been discontinued for some time. Fact: this debate has nothing to do with Lynn

I'm not defending what they've done. It was a terrible thing to do, but I also think it's silly to dwell on their history and alienate people who actually like their dolls.

 

Kuroraka-chan- Thank you for being mature. Alot of Dollzone owners have been very mature in this discussion, it's very welcome. But some have been childish and brought the tone down, that's disapponting but I will ignore those and concentrate on the sensible comments made by people who actually read other's posts.

I completely agree with what you said; there needs to be a balance and we just aren't meeting it. Your database should be a step in the right direction. People should know about discontinued copy Lynn but should not feel attacked for owning a Dollzone. It's hard to meet the balance but with mutual respect I think it can happen.

Tez- Thanks for the insight. I was interested to read it. I really feel it's a bit sad that you get backhanded compliments of your doll. Why can't people just say "He's cute" rather than "he's so much cuter than I thought he would be."


To those who think the topic should be closed:
I've realised that this topic is making me see Dollzone dolls more for what they are than I used to. I'm able to see that hardly any Dollzone owners are immature and rude, as I'd found them in the past. I think this in itself should be a good reason to keep the thread open; it gives mature and smart Dollzone owners a chance to be heard.


Another mention of One Love, the thing in my sig. One Love is basically, regardless of make or model or quanitity of dolls we have; we are all doll lovers. We should look after each other. Dolls are our 'one love' between so many varied people. If you agree with the sentiment, stick the 'one love' icon in your sig.

 

No one is trying to hide it away. However. We are protesting the assertion that it should be the first statement made about Dollzone. Why should we preface every conversation with 'Well, they did copy Woori, but...' Should we wander around with a scarlet P on our chests? What I'm getting at is, what is it that you want us to do?

Babytarragon, I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, but this comes off a bit snide. It feels like you're hunting for someone to say 'well, actually I really don't like their looks, I like it because they're cheap.'

Sorry. I love my dolls. I think they're beautiful. But in a culture where 'everyone knows how fugly Dollzones are'. Or 'man that doll is ugly, must be a Dollzone', asserting the beauty of your doll seems to be asking for a dogpile from people just waiting to tell you how wrong you are.

So we focus on the tangible things. How well made they are. How well they pose. I assure you that your experience was an isolated one. I've yet to meet someone that hasn't exclaimed about how impressed they were to see a Dollzone in person. You're one of the first.