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Dollzone Originality - Discuss it here.

Jul 2, 2006

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    1. I think it's funny that someone brought up that the IdollHouse icon has a heath in it because IdollHouse sells more than just DollZone dolls. They also sell alot of things that fit Hounds, Sds and Sd13s.
       
      #101 kyos_kilt, Jul 3, 2006
    2. A search of the news on DOA shows that the minifee el SPECIALS (couldn't find the original non-special release date) were Feb 06, 2006. The non-special EL (open eyed) had been out before that. (http://www.denofangels.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46623&highlight=mini+fee*)

      The DZ Megi + friends heads were pictured on March 24th but without the bodies. I don't think they were selling quite yet, still in preorder stage.
      http://www.denofangels.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55317&highlight=mini+fee*
       
      #102 Kiyono, Jul 3, 2006
    3. I brought it up because there is absolutely no reason to put Heath's face on a banner when they sell DZ dolls and clothes, not Heaths or repainted Volks heads.
       
      #103 usagi665, Jul 3, 2006
    4. I've read everything I've found on the board about this topic, and I have to say, it makes my head hurt. :nosebleed

      I still am not sure I have a handle on the copy/similarity/influence thing. Volks starts incorporating CP shoulder cups and ShinyDoll rotating thighs in Yukinogo's design. Copy or influence? Garh. But it's pretty damn amazing when you see a photo-stretch of those legs and the curves exactly match those of DZ's gi-normous doll!

      One day I line up all my naked dolls on the carpet and muse how incredibly (and beautifully) similar they are ... that the differences are subtle, which you would expect if you think on the finite number of ways you can mechanically articulate a doll.

      Another day, I might be looking at that same lineup and see each feature as having magnitudes of difference ... this hand, that ribcage, this knee joint, that gluteal mass. And the universe seems pretty full of BJD possibilities.

      This issue just makes me monumentally sad.

      Lisa
       
      #104 FairEmma, Jul 3, 2006
    5. That icon was put up way before the seller started selling DollZone things and the fact is that Change sells more than JUST DollZone-related items. It's like saying that a company that makes dolls and sells clothes made to fit clothes of another company cannot use images of the other's company's dolls because it's false advertising, which it is not. Also, it's pretty obvous that the dolls are not Heaths, so it really isn't flase advertising or anything of the sort.
       
      #105 kyos_kilt, Jul 3, 2006
    6. If you want to get into it, there are a couple companies witht he rotating thigh joint - among them the Serendipity ISMY body and the Dollmore Model body. But in these cases, it doesn't appear that the actual PIECES have been copied. The idea has just been borrowed and reworked, and the pieces were sculpted (presumably) from scratch.

      In these situations, it looks like DZ took existing doll pieces and made molds from them. Sometimes modifying the originals before molding. It would be easy to make fingers slimmer, or fatter, really. And small mods like changing eye shape (like on the discontinued DZ Nina, who looks like a modded MSD Ken to me) are even easier. And one of the things that makes it even easier is that the modded pieces don't even have to look good or be one color - when they're molded as cast, as long as it's all been done smoothly it'll look fine.
       
      #106 armeleia, Jul 3, 2006

    7. Am I reading this wrong, or are what you're saying is that it's ok for them to copy a design as long as they made the copied peice themselves, right?
       
      #107 kyos_kilt, Jul 3, 2006
    8. Not sure if this is an actual dealer or someone who has a mass of DZ dolls they're getting rid of, but Nina is still being sold on Yahoo!Japan.
       
      #108 usagi665, Jul 3, 2006
    9. What really terrifies me though is that I've been working on a ~60 cm doll since August of last year, and I designed him with a separated theigh, double-jointed knees and elbows, and tri-jointed body. I hadn't really looked at an SD16's design until I started following the Dollzone larger doll thread, and now I know that there are dolls out there already with an assembly similar to what I was building. Now I feel like I have to scrap my designs entirely.

      I really want to see what the courts end up deciding about the Dollzone vs Volks deal.
       
      #109 toratenryuu, Jul 3, 2006
    10. The problem for me is, as much as I can see how they could be interpreted as copies, I actually find myself liking the Dollzone mods better than the originals in many cases.

      Case in point, I'd really like a Mo head on a girl body, and I started looking into other bodies she could potentially go on to, since the heads aren't at issue but the bodies are. The problem is, as much as people say the Dollzone girl bodies are Kid Delf girl bodies... I don't LIKE the Kid Delf bodies. I'm looking for a more adult body than Kid Delf or DoC can offer, and I can't be sure the head would work on a MNF body were Luts to sell them separately due to the 'one touch' system. It's not a money issue- I'm using a propery tax refund, and could afford an MNF or Kid Delf. I just want that particular looking body, and if I could get the exact same thing from another company, I'd seriously consider it.

      ETA: And I wouldn't consider just modding a Kid Delf body to look like the DZ body, because then I'd be copying a company accused of copying the original that I was making my original into a copy of... and the paradoxes in that might cause my brain to collapse. I'd get the body that had what I wanted in the first place, not a body I could *potentially* make into the one I wanted.

      And WOW, three posts since I started writing this.

      ETA2: Same with the DZ hands. I would love to have more of the beautifully carved hands on my DZs, but as far as I'm aware DZ doesn't have alternative hand poses/separate hands for sale. Supposedly they're copies, but no one has been able to point me to a company making *exactly* the same degree of musculature where I could buy more nice hands like that. Most of the hands I've seen they're supposedly copies of are far less defined, and the definition is why I like them.
       
      #110 DeadLegato, Jul 3, 2006
    11. The company DollZone has not made that mold in who knows how long. It's probably not an official dealer.
       
      #111 kyos_kilt, Jul 3, 2006
    12. I thought there were several others with rotating thighs, but knew for certain ShinyDOLL did. My bad for not being more thorough (call it laziness at a late hour). :)

      I do understand the distinctions being made in this situation, specifically that the connection with "copy" is much closer. I also remember reading in a post a while back that Volks was of the opinion (dead serious or half-in-jest I couldn't say), that all subsequent BJDs are entirely derivative of their work.

      That and this tragedy (for no matter how it turns out, nobody will really win) are the sorts of things that get me musing about continuums and how we actually draw meaningful lines. We count on being able to do so legally, but even that is more grey than black and white.

      Thanks, Armeleia!

      Lisa
       
      #112 FairEmma, Jul 3, 2006
    13. I see too much similarity between the new DZ body and the SD16 for it to be a coincidence (legs, hands, feet, pelvis, etc.). Perhaps there are only so many ways for a large boy doll to be constructed, but there has to be a way to make them so that they don't look the same. For example, there are similarities in the jointing of Dollshe boys and the SD16 yet nobody thought one was ripping off the other. Totally different look, different appeal.

      The other day I was looking at the progress pictures of Hue on the Dollstown site. There's continuity in their designs, so he looks like a relative to their other dolls. The artist drew inspiration for Hue's modeling from Michaelangelo's David and there is a picture of their sculpt next to a photo of David on the site. That is inspiration.

      If they'd used Yukinojo as their inspiration and showed me pictures of them side by side, I'd call it :apirate:. Yar.

      All of that being said, I'm really personally disappointed. Ever since I saw the SD16 body I've been saying, "Why didn't they make him taller? If he was over 70cm, he'd be perfect for Aeschylus!" Here he is, and I won't buy him. :...(

      Hmmm, I guess we'll have a better idea about how many ways a 70+cm boy can be constructed pretty soon. I doubt the Dollmore Model boy will look like he's inspired by anything other than the Dollmore artist's imagination. (Come on Model boy, don't make me eat my words.)
       
      #113 idrisfynn, Jul 3, 2006

    14. This is most eloquently put, and I was noting the same thing. I am so glad that someone else brought it up.

      I can not however fault people for wanting to know the truth. I doubt anyone wants to invest their money in a product that is potentially an illegal copy. I personally find them to be suspicious.

      It really is a pity though as they had offered an avenue for new owners to own a doll at a more affordible price. It is my hope that Dollzone, and all involved companies get to the heart of the matter.
       
      #114 northern_raven, Jul 3, 2006
    15. Hmm, has anyone tried to contact Dollzone about this? I know Volks has been contacted, but what about Dollzone? They do have an English website with contact info (http://www.doll-zone.com. Are there any words from them about this whole thing already posted somewhere? I would be interested in at least hearing what they have to say, especially if we can show them the pics...
       
      #115 i9i9, Jul 3, 2006
    16. 1.I heard that DZ official have retained lawyer to deal with the copy issue.See from the statement of the lawyer,some argument in China mainland might refered to unfair commercial competition.And so far,DZ official haven't received any letter of law that charge it have infringe any copyright of other BJD company.I think we can wait and see the final result.
      2.I know that the originator of DZ doll made some mistakes once before.But what to say,I don't think that's means he or she would go on making mistake.BJD's world is big but also small.I don't think that if any new doll was made by copy could get away from the BJD fans' eyes.Any originator or company want to take a short cut,he or she or it won't succeed.Any sensible guys won't choose this way.As I known from the originators of DZ,they do want to make their own dolls and own brand.So,I don't think they will copy again unless they want to kill themselve.
      3.Personally speaking,I do believe that any action which infringe the other's copyright is shame.They should be punished.But before the fact is found,suspicion is just suspicion,not the fact.

      Above all are my own opinions,just want to say something I want to say.No offence to anybody.That's it.^^ And sorry for my English(Oh,I got to learn my English again!!! Shy and run away....)
       
      #116 yuanzhisky, Jul 3, 2006
    17. **sigh** This is really depressing.

      And for me, the worst part is that I feel guilty for liking the shape of the slightly more slender torso on the DollZone one! **mutters** It's sad that there's so much indicating that he is a direct copy...if he wasn't so tall and wasn't so...immoral...I'd want one (heck, even the height I could deal with easily enough - modding isn't hard...it's just that I don't want to own a doll I feel is stolen from the sculpt of another)! He'd look great with my SD16...kinda bridge the gap between him and the SD13 body porportions. **bangs head on counter**

      ....except for the short arms. 0.o I think those just look weird.
       
      #117 Kiyakotari, Jul 3, 2006
    18. Don;t feel bad for liking them- they look good.

      And I think it's important for eveyone to remeber that yes- this IS speculation... but until one or other of the companied involved decalres for sure weather or not they have prooven to be copies, we are allowed to speculate.

      No one person on this forum is coming under fire becuase of this. This is just people airing their fears, as I have said before. ^_^
       
      #118 Guide, Jul 3, 2006
    19. This is the most useless comment ever on the face of this debate, I just wanted to point out (since people keep mentioning the DZ body's "short arms") that in those pics of the DZ and SD16 bodies side by side, it seems pretty obvious to me that the DZ arm is lifted forward from the body, thus making it look shorter in 2D. You can tell by the overlap of the hand on the hip, it seems more forward. Like I said, usleless point, but I'm a stickler for details. :sweat

      I agree that the bodies look eeirly similar, (more similar than is comfortable for me) but I'm not really the type to get entrenched in drama. So I will just wait and see if legal action is taken, and will be interested to know the outcome of that. :)
       
      #119 dicebox, Jul 3, 2006
    20. There isn't THAT much foreshortening going on to account for THAT much difference. Seriously, it's at least an inch. And the hands, especially the right one, look to be exactly the same retarded pose. X3 Sorry, they look the same length to me and everything. :-/

      Lower torso, arms ESPECIALLY, there were pictures where DZboy's elbows had exactly the same look as Yukinojo's with the wonky elbow... The suwarriko pose where you see the inside of the knee, it's exactly the same shape and idea as Yukinojo's, the feet, etc... Argh. I heard of the wank, went to the link given to Cassiel's LJ, and I was immediately like... "...WTF?" As much staring at Remus as I do, it was all... "Wow, so much of that looks exactly the same." :-/

      Something is fishy. <',||||||><
       
      #120 Ian-KunX, Jul 3, 2006
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