Edited - Are the Minimee Sculpts Original?

i have a question... i dont know if this is the right place but... there are no other bjd designers besides DIM minimee desings? i mean, only DIM is making minimees?

 

Yes, as of right now they are the only companies offering such service.

Thank s Sarako, I did not know of any other services!!

 

That's not entirely accurate, as Nobility Doll offers a service to "make your own ball-jointed doll" (at http://www.nobilitydoll.com/shop/step1.php?number=724) and I believe Donn of Bishonenhouse takes quotes on custom orders. However, both of them are far more expensive than the Minimee ^__^ (I believe somewhere on the Nobility site you can see pictures of where they were sculpting a Prince of Tennis head) But I'm not sure if Nobility Doll's service is actually open to the public yet, either...

 

people talk about anime characters etc, but, there are many, many figurines of anime and game characters. which is not so far off from a doll.

im assuming all figures are authorised by the original creator? i have no idea. obviously there will be rip-offs etc, but do they have to be authorised? i feel this is quite closely linked

 

I don't know the specifics, but I think its a pretty safe bet that most are authorized. However, they're also sold in larger quantities and advertised as those characters, rather than being made as a commission.

Minimees are more like fanart which I know is a gray area, but issues are less likely to come up there than with mass marketed goods. Widely sold figurines are going to draw more attention than dolls coming out of a small very specialized hobby and probably turn more of a profit as well.

 

Yes, that's what I meant. aangita, I don't see the difference between a model being upset because her photo is used without her permission, and a celebrity (or anyone for that matter) having their face on a doll in someone's bedroom, without their knowledge. I agree perfectly with the idea that maybe DiM is getting away with it because 99% of the world doesn't know BJDs exist.

 

Hm, personally I find all this copyright stuff a bit silly, not it's not strictly legal, nor is any other kind of fanwork. But I am guessing that most of the people posting over the legalities have enjoyed fanart, fanfiction, character dolls, used copyrighted images for web layouts and icons, etc etc etc.

There IS a difference between the strict legalities and what people generally consider being okay or not worth the bother. Even though most fanworks are technically illegal, they're generally considered "okay" by fans, and often by the creators as well. From what I recall there's already been a debate over fan dolls before, and over copyright as pertains to photos of dolls, so I'm sure it's all been said before.

So yes, it probably all is illegal. But you can go buy books of "silly laws" that aren't enforced and many states still have things like anti sodomy laws which are obviously very rarely enforced.

But does that make the dolls, in terms of the doll world, less worthy? I posted it before and nobody really answered, but there are some sculpts that are very similar to other celebrities without being advertised as such, to the degree that you'd think the mold may have been based on that person. And sculptors probably do take the features of real people when they're working on a doll. After all, what else would you base a sculpture of a human head on, other than a human head?

 

I just wanted to state that I don't have anything against minimees. I don't find them less worthy for some reason or other. But this is an interesting issue to debate because fans have such different reactions to what they conceive as 'copying' and what they want from minimees.

Just a note...there's a degree of difference between fanworks (fanfic, fanart, icons, web layouts) that are illegal and what minimee is doing, and that difference lies in profitability. Fanworks are allowed because they often don't make money or if they do, they don't make a lot of money. As someone made an example earlier, even in Japan where doujinshi is widely accepted, they had to stop a Doraemon doujin because it was making too much sales. There's where the line lies and in the case of sculpting 10 only, that's how Minimee is playing it safe. However, I still suspect there would be celebrities who might protest it merely because they personally wouldn't want their faces used that way.

So...a model who hasn't given consent to having her pictures displayed is a clear violation of her rights.

A model who hasn't given consent had an artist sculpt her face without her knowledge and cast 10 pieces of said sculpture to be sold for a few hundred dollars...this is not a violation of her rights?

What you're saying is we can't use someone's face for advertisement, but we can use someone's face as a product to be sold? I think there's a leap of logic here that I'm not getting.

Also, the answer to that is yes, the artist is liable. If an artist is asked to draw/sculpt something that is copyrighted/trademarked to be sold commercially, they retain the right to deny the commission so as not to infringe on any law. Whether or not some people choose to refuse is another question. I don't understand the part about, "It’s not like they are using these images for personal gain directly" because how is an artist earning money not personal gain?

 

As someone who collects anime figures as well as doujinshi and dolls, I can say that in Japan, there are garage kit and model events that are just like doujinshi events where amateur sculptors display and sell their figures, and most are generally hentai versions of licensed characters as most doujinshi are BL/hentai stories with licensed characters. I know there is a particular independently made garage kit of an Ikkitousen character I'd give an arm for whose unpainted, disassembled price was 30,000 yen at a recent figure event.

These events are treated the same way that doujinshi events are, not sure if I have ever heard of one being shut down due to the owners of the intellectual property raising a fit. It's all seen as part of the otaku culture.

I go to cons. I pay fanartists to draw fanart for me. I compensate them for their time and effort. Is this technically illegal? Probably, since it's not their characters they are drawing, but *shrugs* It doesn't bother me. I kinda see the Minimee project in the same light.

 

ooh! thanks!! i didnt know that nobillity doll has "minimees" too... but they might not be really popular... or at least not as much as dim minimees... cause i still havent seen any :S

 

I think if you dislike the Minimees enough to make a stink about it...well...report them if it will make you feel better. Otherwise, don't complain :P

Furthermore, there are so many things done with music, imagery, artwork, and other trademarked materials every day that are without the knowledge or "blessing" of the original creator(s). Who on this board can honestly say they've never downloaded an album, a movie, or episodes of a TV show? The mindset there is often "it's harmless, as long as the person making copies isn't doing it for profit." This isn't entirely true, because profit is being taken away from the original creators, since potential customers are downloading the material for free instead of paying to get it.

Then there's the can of worms that is fanart and fanfiction. You can walk through the Artist's Alley of any anime convention, and there will be people selling their own renditions of copyrighted characters. Minimees fall into this category, if you ask me. It's really no different than someone drawing a portrait of a character or celebrity. Sure, it may not be entirely right or legal, but it's done all the time and for the most part the law turns a blind eye, as does everyone else.

 

I used to work for a games company and we had a huge selection of licensed goods based on our characters.
We had to deal with many copyright issues, from little things like fanart using our characters without quoting our required disclaimer to serious things like unlicensed toys, people selling pirate copies of our games, unauthorized ringtones, etc...

Basically a company in this situation cares about 2 main issues:
- they don't want people buying pirate copies because they lose revenue.
- they don't want customers buying unlicensed goods, again because the customers are not spending money on the genuine stuff, but mostly because these goods are usually inferior and sometimes unsafe. If customers think the shoddy toys they bought are genuine licensed goods, the reputation of the company will suffer.

I think if a BJD company released an unlicensed doll based on one of their characters, there would be hell to pay. I know of at least one of their characters that has been made as a minimee. They most likely don't know about it and I'm not sure how bothered they would be about it, given that they are made in very small quantities and they are not representations of the character in full details.

Personally I think minimees are a great concept. However I'm sure the time will come when a less scrupulous BJD company will produce something like minimees but in much larger runs. Then we may start seeing lawsuits.

 

I consider minimee dolls just a big piece of fanart. Forgive me if I've gotten something wrong here- I'm hardly a doll expert, I've been in fandom longer- but as the minimee service is just that- an additional service- and they aren't advertising (Get a doll that looks just like Gackt, or something) it's no more illegal than, say, me modding David Bowie cheekbones onto a Volks head or something, because the reference photo I used was of a famous figure. I just saw my first Minimee up close last night and I have to say- though they are a close likeness it's their realism that sets them apart, not a specific resemblance to a person. If there was a realistic facial sculpt where the look of the face was based off of nothing or off a model who was paid for their likeness I think it would sell well- I love the delicately sculpted face and teeth of the Minimee I got to hold, I had no idea who it was of and I'd buy it right there- but probably not as well as one of someone who already had some facial recognition or distinctive features, like say, Johnny Depp.

The small runs make it work. If I were Johnny Depp and there was someone out there selling dolls of me AS dolls of me, in a serious heavy duty commercial fashion, I know the first person I'd tell would probably be my lawyer. (And my lovely family, but I'm not Johnny Depp, am I?)

 

I think this is a bit dubious anyway, I don't like real-person fic, I think it crosses an unfair and unwelcome boundary between an actor and their character and having a doll deliberately made to look like someone else to control their movements and put them in their photostories is much the same thing as RPF to me.

It doesn't stop me admiring the sculpts (the Jared Padalecki and Jensen Ackles heads are incredible likenesses) and seeing how accurate they are, but I'd never buy one myself and I'd be a bit weirded-out if I was a celebrity and had a head made 80% to my likeness. Using someone else's face *and* personality makes me feel uncomfortable.

I think anyone has the right to say if they dislike something...but a rant is something else I don't feel I'm infringing someone's rights by saying Minimee heads aren't always fair on the person they portray, but I'm not going to go on about it and I'd never be nasty about someone or their doll if they used a Minimee head. It's down to personal choice...it's just my personal choice not to buy them

 

I have to say... if a Minimee doll is a piece of fanwork, I'm uncomfortable with it being for real person fic. You already have a doll that looks like Johnny Depp (to go back to the example), why do you have to *make* it him? But not even him, just the parts that you like about him in real life and throw in whatever else you want for what you don't know. It seems a little too much. Name your doll Johnny (or Gerard, or whatever you want for the base image) but there's one thing in having your doll resemble your favourite actor or musician and another to have it be a clone of them. Up to 80%, hmm...

EDIT: Are dolls to be considered part of artistic expression? They are being sold, but then again, so is a lot of other art out there.

And someone mentioned a page or two back a friend who had a picture taken and came back to see it on display and was alarmed by this- on the whole people having Minimees made of them are either fictional characters/celebrities, who essentially make a living off of selling their likenesses and/or talents at mimicking another person's mannerisms (whether that person be fictional or based off a real person as in a biopic or something) or they're the owner themselves or someone they actually know and can contact for permission or to show them the end product and see if they're OK. It's not like, you see a random person on the street, snap a few camera phone pictures and then sit around and play with your Total Stranger Minimee with nine of your friends.

 

I wanted to say that copyright's are enforced in countries that have agreed to enforce them. Most countries have agreed to Copyright laws. However Some countries have not agreed to enforce them and so citizens and companies can and will legally duplicate works, legally copyrighted in other countries.

 

On Topic:
As far as if the sculpts are concerned; they are original because someone created them from scratch. Yes, this person was using a reference, but I'm sure doll artists reference something before creating as well, even if it is only their own drawings.

However, I feel that the Minimees fall into that gray area of fanart; the fact that they limit it to 10 now is probably a result of stepping out of that area and into mass-production where royalties are required. It's pretty much like an artist creating fanart of say, Bleach or Naruto characters, printing a limited amount, and selling them for a higher price. Everyone has their own opinion about it, and as most either are for or against it, it's difficult to determine where that cut-off line occurs.

Okay, hope that made some sense at least *head explodes*

Off Topic opinion:
I personally find minimees both unsettling and amusing, depending upon the mold. I saw the Heath Ledger head on here and felt a little weird because he's so recently deceased, yet I saw the Alan Rickman head and was like "Greatest Thing Ever!" (Alan Rickman lover since I first saw "Die Hard" and "Sense and Sensibility")

 

Agree with pretty much everything said here. The minimee's so far, have really not looked exactly like any of the people they are suppose to, so I don't find them to be all that guilty of stealing someone's image. Copying another mfg's doll is actually physically copying a tangible item, so naturally it's going to be a bigger deal.

 

This is a good point, and a debate I have thought about for some time now. My girlfriend wanted a doll based on Dawn by Linsner, but actually asked his representatives if there was any problem with this. They said it was fine and loved recieving the photos! However they said to sell on the doll AS Dawn would be against copyright, I think this is fair enough. I really dont feel comfortable with people selling the Minimee heads on Ebay of characters that someone else has created and now these people are making money from them. Thats what I feel anyway.

 

I got to hold the COOLEST minimee head at my last meetup- it was of an actress (or maybe a model) I'd never heard of and they'd rendered the bone structure and the shapes in the face just perfectly. And then, while watching some of my favourite movies right after, I realised- a David Tennant minimee, for example, would look... kind of scary. If it's without the person animating it, they really aren't attractive in the same way, and it'd just come across as, well, a funny-looking doll.
That said, I totally would buy minimees of Abby and Ziva from NCIS, just for the fun of photo-storying them. Abby isn't conventionally Hollywood-pretty, and Ziva is... Ziva's awesome. It'd be fun to find them clothes that actually worked for them.