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Elitism - How much is perceived?

Mar 9, 2011

    1. That is the flip-side of freedom of speech, yes. It allows assholes the freedom of assholery. It means that-- unless the speech is not protected-- there's nobody you can run to to make that person stop being a meanie.

      Not so long ago, we witnessed the First Amendment's full ramifications in action, when the hideously misbegotten donkeyspawn & evolutionary accident Fred Phelps and his crew got taken to court for picketing a military funeral, and flooding it with hate-speech signs/shouts/slogans.... in front of the soldier's family as they tried to have a nice ceremony... but the judgment against them was thrown out, because the court ruled that their speech was protected. Check out those signs they were waving; if that's legal, then I'm sorry to say that "someone was mean to my dollie" will just never stand up in court. Sometimes one really just has to thicken one's skin.

      But the bright side is: you're just as free to tell your detractors to go hump a lightning-rod.
      Or to respond that their own doll is so ugly that, if it were a baby, you'd have to feed it with a slingshot.
      Or to turn the other cheek and say nothing.
      Whatever suits your style.
       
    2. Ah, yes... those protests. Truly the darkest side of freedom of speech in action. :|

      But what you say is true: if someone wants to tell you your doll is ugly, or cheap, or inferior, you in turn have the right to say whatever you want about their doll, you can tell them to go f*** themselves, or turn the other cheek.

      Personally, I find these so called elitists laughable (maybe I've said this before). It's a complete waste of emotion, energy, and time... but if someone wants to go out of their way to find a flaw in another's doll, it only shows that they have their own insecurities, and they need to find fault in something or someone else in order to validate themselves. So... if I were in such a situation, I'd just inwardly laugh at how pathetic someone is to try and find validation in making fun of a DOLL.

      Also, it only seems like debates like these and displays of outrage would only fuel the fire we are trying to exstinguish. Why act insulted towards someone who aims to insult you... aren't you just giving them what they want. Just ignore it, and don't give them the validation and satisfaction they want. That is really the best solution, since you can't really snuff it out.
       
    3. I'm really curious about this subject because I haven't encountered any elitism myself in my (admittedly very short) time in this hobby, and from what I can see on this thread, most people here haven't encountered elitism either...

      But when I was flipping through those BJD confession tumblrs, I saw quite a few confessions that were pretty much variations of this:
      [​IMG]
      I mean.. who are these people dealing with that they think their cheaper dolls are so reviled and would resort to buying bootlegs to get some respect??
       
    4. On the flip side, I've seen a lot of people who feel alienated because of their Volks dolls. Apparently it happens fairly often at doll meets? *shrug* ._.
       
    5. I've been in the hobby for a very long time and have never encountered elitism (which is not to say that it doesn't exist, of course, as I pointed out earlier in the thread).

      Like you, I'm not sure who people who post similar confessions are dealing with. I haven't met anyone who would respect or disrespect someone based solely on dolly tastes and preferences. I don't know where the notion of "I must have a certain type of doll to be respected" is coming from - I've never experienced it myself, and I don't have the most popular dolls either.

      I am curious to hear first-hand experiences from folks who have been disrespected because of owning "lower end Chinese dolls". How and where does it happen?
       
    6. I think a lot of these people who fear this "elitism" have not even experienced it. Rather, they have heard the few horror stories and have assumed that things like this happen much more often than they actually do.

      Considering how many people show their disdain for elitism and those who "whine" about it, I don't think someone actually experiences it so much that they would truly consider buying recasts... rather, a few may use the "elitist" argument to paint themselves as a victim to try and justify buying recasts to validate themselves due to elitism on their part.

      It is unfortunate if someone's behavior makes another doll owner feel as if they need to own an expensive doll to really thrive in this hobby... and it probably does happen. Even if this is a niche hobby, we live in a big world. However, I think it's a person's own perception that they have to own something like an LE or a Volks or a Soom that makes them begin to feel that others around them are elitist.
       
    7. Happened at a DragonCon dollmeet last year - although to be fair it was the kind of turning the back disdain I've seen towards those non-beautiful geek people who wear (or in this case have a Bobobie wearing) hand-made costumes vs the perfect expensive cosplay/doll full-set. In other words, not necessarily doll snobbery.
      I dealt w/it in a Southern lady way (because it was a young girl having her feelings hurt)
      That kind of nonsense happens in EVERY group, but not very much :D - the majority of hobbie/geek people are very nice, at least face-to-face, in my experience.
       
    8. [​IMG]
      I wonder how much of this comes from being 'disrespected by elitists' and how much comes from the desire to have loads of attention heaped onto oneself for having a popular doll sculpt?

      I wonder what denotes being 'respected' and 'disrespected' to those who feel that way?

      Not getting three pages of squee in a gallery post does not equal being snubbed or disrespected. And if someone is being snubbed at a doll meet for not having xyz doll, then I too wonder what kind of people these unfortunate souls are surrounded by.
       
    9. I haven't met too many people in life who will tell you straight to your face that they don't like what you are wearing, driving, etc. And I grew up in NY, where people are very straightforward. Most of us are bred well enough to keep that type of opinion to ourselves. So it seems really unlikely that many people have walked into a meet to be greeted with hate about their doll.

      I think it's much more likely that a person worrying about elitism has read a nasty comment or three on an anonymous website or snark board (which could very well be trolling). The usual reason a person posts that kind of stuff anonymously is because s/he would never say so in public. The internet allows people to try on personas they would never wear in public.

      OR maybe the person came to a meet where friendships/cliques were already established (having to do with human relationships, not dolls), where people were shy, or where that person behaved in such a way (pantsing dolls in public, grabbing dolls without permission, etc., being rowdy in public spaces, etc.) that people avoided her. It's easy to interpret any of those situations as people being elitist about your doll when the reality is something quite different.
       
    10. I think you nailed it on the head, strangeangels. I also think it's the desire for attention, not about being "disrespected". It seems to me that people like that aren't in the hobby to enjoy their dolls, but rather to flaunt them because they only want compliments. I've seen so-called "lower end Chinese dolls" look better than Sooms, Volks and the like. It's not about what sculpt a person gets, but what they do with it that makes it stand out.
       
    11. I've always thought that when you decide to join this hobby it's because you love dolls, or because you think that this specific kind of doll is beautiful and therefore want to own it, but the thing that makes me so mad, and something that I've come across quite a lot recently is that many people want to buy a "cheaper doll" just to "have one". Meaning that they're not interested in actually shelling out the money to buy the one they really want or the one that they think is most beautiful, because they don't want to. I don't know how many people that I've met that I've asked "so, why did you decide to join the hobby?" And the response is, "I'm not really into dolls, I just wanted one because they're popular."

      I personally think that this is where the elitism comes from. Those of us that have dolls that we love and it breaks our hearts to be parted from, or those of us who would pay so much to get what we really want to have because it's beautiful, or those of us who support our favorite companies are often appalled at the fact that someone would own a doll of this caliber just "because it's popular".

      This is the reason that I have such little respect for companies like Bobobie, or Fantasy Doll, because the people who buy from them are doing it just because it's popular to own one. I heard this one at a convention, "I love your doll, but they're way too expensive for me."

      "You could always save up..."

      "Naw, I don't really feel like it. I think I'll just buy a bobobie doll, they're cheap." Well... That's not really the point of this hobby, honey. I don't own all these dolls just because they're cheap, I own them because I like the molds and they fit my characters. I own them because they're beautiful... and slightly like tattoos, you can't have just one.

      But whenever I hear about someone who bought from Bobobie, I always go "oh..." because I'm so used to "well... I just wanted a cheap one." I know there are people who buy from Bobobie because they like the molds, and because they like the style of dolls. I have a great friend who has 3 of them and thinks they're wonderful, or my other friend who has many Bobobie dolls because she likes all the colours she can get them in for her many faerie ideas.

      But the people who own them just because they're cheap, are the ones that bother me the most, because I always think "you're not in this because you love them, you're in this because you want to be noticed. You want the attention and you want to be popular." This hobby is way to expensive for that. You either love it, or you don't.

      As to the "recasts". I met someone at a convention who wanted to own a recast, because once again, it was "cheaper" than owning the real thing. The problem with this situation is, she had the kind of job where she could AFFORD the real thing. She just didn't want to go to all the trouble of getting it. Buying a "recast" from an online shop was easier than paying someone to go to Volks and buy her the doll that she wanted. You know, I do the Shopping Service, I live in Japan, I can easily go to Sato or Sumika and get your doll for you. I don't charge much in commissions. Why would you rather have a boot-leg doll than the real thing, when you can actually AFFORD the real thing.

      I don't get it. I really don't. I buy dolls based on character looks and who would fit best, not based on how "cheap" or "not cheap" they are. However, I can find the dolls that I want that are cheap. You can find them, sometimes they're on the marketplace or in the second hand shops. I have two FCS F09's that I bought from DoA, one was MAYBE 300$ in total because he was a little yellow, and the other was 500. I've found Luts dolls for less than 300, and gotten some really good deals. It CAN be done. But buying cheaper the cheapest dolls just because they're cheap and not looking around for what you really want... or doing it just because it's popular and once it's not popular anymore, selling your doll. I just can't get behind that.
       
    12. I wonder that too - what does it mean when someone states that she/he has been disrespected in the dolly world? I'm truly curious what this disrespect entails.

      I suspect that a lot of this has to do with what you mentioned - not getting pages of comments to photos in galleries and/or other threads. Under this definition, I'm disrespected a lot :lol:. My dolls are not really exciting by today's standards - I've yet to own a Soom MD, and the majority of my dolls are more old-school stylized sculpts, as I don't really like the more realistic trend that seem to be all the rage these days. Majority of pictures I post get either get very few or no responses at all. And, to me, that simply means that my photography skills are lackluster and my dolls are not really interesting to anyone but myself, which is absolutely fine by me! I bought them for my personal enjoyment, after all.

      Finally, when this hobby was just starting out, BJDs were not exactly the most popular kids on the dolly block. They used to be called "aliens", "creepy", "scary", etc. by the more mainstream doll collectors (those who collected fashion dolls, reborns, and so on). And, owning one certainly didn't get you any popularity points, which is why I don't quite get this notion that the dolls you like and own (general 'you') must be squee'd over by others for you enjoy the hobby.
       
    13. This whole BBB v. Volks "war" that keeps being brought up seems really out-of-date to me. We have companies that are given just as much praise as Volks, and some are more expensive. We have more companies who have prices near BBB/RS prices, as well, so I don't understand why we still put these two against each other. I would've thought we'd have different pairings, now.
       
    14. I think it's simplified to BBB v. Volks. I see people throwing Iplehouse and SOOM on the Volks side (and sometimes Fairyland), and other cheap (in terms of price) Chinese brands on the BBB side, such as FantasyDoll.
       
    15. Wow. So my dear little friend who LOVES ball-jointed dolls (& anime...) & managed to save up enough to buy a lovely little Bobobie girl (which is an EXPENSIVE doll by normal standards, people) is 'not interested in actually shelling out the money to buy the one they really want' as Elendae-Nersil so charmingly put it. But no eliticism here. Not at all.
      I laugh. I really do.
      The recast thing, however, is a problem - that is pretty despicable in my opinion, especially given that most of these companies are small, where recasts could cause them to go out of business.
       
    16. Except that's not at all what she said. Context is everything:

      If you read the entire post you'll see she was talking about someone who can afford a really expensive doll (not talking about your friend, here!) who was settling for a doll she really didn't like (a recast) because it was (relatively) cheap.
       
    17. I have a BBB, and nowhere on this forum have I ever been ostracized because of it. I get compliments on him when others see him, as well as my DM Kid (who happens to be smaller, but cost more than him). Nowhere on this forum has anyone ever brought up the fact that I owned a BBB in a debate or any thread as an excuse to tell me my argument was wrong, invalid or moot.

      I enjoy looking at beautiful dolls, period. If they happen to be a Soom MD or a BBB/RS, it doesn't matter. I think that every doll company has something to bring to the table, and there is probably at least one doll in most companies that I find I like. I like Volks dolls, too, though they're not my style.

      I wish people who are afraid to show their BBB/RS dolls would eventually show them. If DoA had such an anti-BBB/RS vibe to it, why are we on our third or fourth thread for everyone who owns/admires them?

      Heck, I wish people would be willing to share their dolls, no matter what company they come from. I always love seeing what someone else has done to another BBB Apollo or DM Kid Flocke. It provides encouragement to try new things, as well as help you connect with other members. I think most of us find it kind of nice when we can say "Hey, we have the same doll!" and admire each others work.
       
    18. I've seen a lot of Bobobie love in the BB discussion threads and I think we've all met folks that love their Bobobie kids (or, insert other afordable bjd brand here) and actually chose to purchase them...

      ...which is why I question the wide prevalence of 'elitism' that would cause someone to be so ashamed of their doll that they would resort to bootlegs to feel good about themselves in the hobby.

      There are people with the 'better than thou' attitude everywhere so of course you are bound to meet a few in the hobby, but I see people sharing the joy of their 'cheap' dolls in the various discussion threads just like people do in every other thread, so it isn't like someone is isolated when choosing a certain doll... other people have chosen that doll too.

      The only thing I can think is that a percentage of those who are feeling dissed really are 'not interested in actually shelling out the money to buy the one they really want' as Elendae-Nersil said.

      I cannot deny that someone could be a victim of elitism in this or any hobby, but the picture that Quetz found... I find it hard to believe that elitism is the force behind bootleg supporters... that people who own lower end Chinese dolls have been so bullied that purchasing bootlegs of fancier dolls is their only recourse, rather that it is a justification.

      I happen to love my low end Chinese doll, I especially love my low end Korean dolls (DoD was considered a 'low end doll' when I purchased my first one seven+ years ago) and no one has ever bullied my dolls in all that time. Maybe I have been incredibly lucky?
       
    19. I am a bit puzzled. I think "low end doll" a rather funny wording considering BJDs. How can a -doll- that costs over 100$ be even comsidered low end? The "cheaper" dolls are still pretty much a luxury product. Just because people tend to suffer from feelings of relative deprivation, it doesn't really make these dolls "low end".

      Also, I still don't see that much popularity of BJDs in the mainstream world. So buying a doll just because "they are popular" seems a rather weird thing to do. Maybe the people saying that are ashamed about having bought a doll in general, and hence want to hide their true reason for buying one.
       
    20. I think you nailed it right here. I wonder just how many people who claim to be victims of elitism are just not getting fawned all over the way their delicate egos think they need to be. I don't much care who you are but if you link your entire worth in this hobby to how much gushing over your doll people do, well, that's sad.

      If I get ANY gallery hits I'm impressed. I don't own any MDs, the more recent hyper-realistic sculpts do exactly nothing for me, and Delfs just aren't as popular as they used to be. Nor am I egotistical and/or delusional enough to think I own the best examples of my sculpts Evar. So if someone comments on my Shiwoo I'm blown away. In my mind, the only way to be 'disrespected' in this hobby is to a) make a total asshat out of yourself in some way, shape, or form; b) openly own or pursue owning a recast*, or c) get all snotty about everyone else's dolls in an attempt to make your ego bigger. It's your actions that bring disrespect. Not your doll choices.

      *People who got scammed and unknowingly purchased a recast don't count.