Elitism - How much is perceived?

Isabeau, can you explain how you think this advice is elitist?

I just read through the thread, "What do you think of starter dolls?" and saw a variety of opinions for and against, as well as the words "it depends," "whatever works for you," "personally," etc. A lot of the people saying you shouldn't settle for a starter doll are often people who did so. And a lot of the people saying you should get a starter doll are also people who did so. Sharing one's experience is not elitist. It's simply sharing one's experience.

 

I don't think it's "save for an expensive doll" so much as it's "save for the one you really want." It doesn't matter if the doll the person really loves is $8, $88, or $888. I see it as advising/encouraging the person not to settle for something that isn't what they really want. How is that being elitist?

How about the deal with labeling people that didn't *have* to save up because they asked for the doll and received it as being "spoiled"? Or labeling people that can and choose to buy a doll one right after the other as "out of control?" I see that sort of elitist, jealous behavior happening on the board quite often.

 

I think I agree with some parts of Isabeau's post and some parts of Jescissa's, or maybe it's that I fall some where in between? The tricky part about statements regarding buying dolls is that it's such a highly individual thing. What works for one won't necessarily work for someone else.

I agree with Isabeau that some of those statements rub me a little the wrong way. I don't however, necessarily chalk it up to elitism. I think sometimes its just poor wording that makes some of those statements come off sounding like cheap doll always=bad while expensive doll always=good. People often don't think about how they say what they're saying which is often the cause of unnecessary drama. I don't think there's anything wrong with the idea of suggesting to make sure you really do like the sculpt before you buy, but there are clearer ways of saying it. And sometimes saving for a really long time for a first doll can be so frustrating that the person might ditch the hobby before even getting started, but not everyone always takes that into account. I find it easier to save after I had a doll, because I knew that what I was waiting for would be worth it, and I knew better what to expect. I know that you don't have to own a doll to be a part of DoA, but there really is only so many things one can do without one. But again, this is also a very individual matter. To be honest, if I had to save a really long time for my first, I probably would've gotten discouraged and wouldn't be here now.

Like Jescissa I don't really put a lot of stock in needing a starter doll, unless the buyer really really feels more comfortable going that rout. I've always felt that as long as you take reasonable care of your doll whether inexpensive or very expensive, things will turn out ok. I did take money into account a bit when buying my first doll, meaning that I got a mini. At that time there wasn't the variation in prices that you have now, so he cost as much (if not more than) a lot of the inexpensive SD sized dolls on the market now. He's almost 7, and he's in beautiful condition despite being my first and getting drug lots of places, being the first doll that I got used to handling and posing, and being the first doll I took apart, blushed and restrung.

As for getting what you want right off instead of having to tinker with your group later -- it's taken me this whole time to figure out what I really want, because what I wanted changed over time. I looked at my dolls the other day and had a wonderful feeling of pride and contentment, because I realized my doll family is so what I want (finally!). I sometimes wonder 'what if' in terms of some of my previous buying choices, but what I want now simply wasn't what I wanted then. It would've been much easier to not have to go through the process of weeding out my dolls and making the decision to sell a fair few. However, I don't think there would've been a way around that since no matter what the vision I had for my doll family was bound to evolve over time.

 

AlphaCow brings up many good points about misunderstandings and how it's important to take a step back and think about what's being said, rather than reacting first and thinking later. Additionally, I do agree that many such misunderstandings happen because people jump in on a conversation without having read the thread. Yes, there are threads that are pages long, but, I feel that if you (general) want to participate in a meaningful way, you have to read the majority of the conversation, especially if you feel offended by one of the later posts - they may be part of an ongoing discussion and are being taken out of context. Personally, if I come into a conversation late in the game, I take the time to read what was said, even if it takes me a few days.

Isabeau, could you elaborate more why you see such advice as elitist? As Jescissa already pointed out, many times, this advice is given by someone for whom a "starter doll" did not work, not because cheaper dolls are looked down upon on principle. It all boils down to your personal style and expectations when it comes to hobbies. Some like to start out cheaper and simpler, to get their feet wet, and others feel that if they are going to give a hobby a try, they might as well go all out. There is no right or wrong here, just opinions, personal experiences, and, ultimately, individual choice.

If I were asked about starter dolls, I'd say that I recommend against them. While I did not try out BJDs with a starter doll (back in 2003, that was also not even an option, as there were only a handful of companies selling BJDs, all of which were more or less similarly priced), I did get an MSD starter (my first was SD-sized doll). Basically, I wasn't sure how I'd feel about the size and bought a cheaper MSD that I sort of liked vs. the more expensive one I really liked. When I received my doll, I did not like it and it turned me off MSDs entirely, until I gave the size another chance by buying the doll I really wanted. Now, MSDs dominate my collection - I love that size more than any other! Interestingly, I ended up spending more money on the cheaper MSD by purchasing multitudes of wigs, eyes and outfits in a desperate effort to bond with her. So, while my advice to a newbie is to buy the doll she really wants, even if it may take her a while to save up, it's simply coming from personal experience.

 

As to why it seemed elitist to me, many, not all, but many posts seemed to imply that you wouldn't be happy unless you spent a fair chunk of change on a doll, that you would be frustrated by the engineering, the resin quality, the quality of the sculpture. That may or may not be true, depending on the individual. Whether that was poor wording or just my poor perception, I don't know. As Anna
has mentioned, the individuals advising such may very well have had unsatisfactory experiences with starter dolls. I did not, so those posts do rub me the wrong way, particularly when they imply that your bonding experience will be the less the less money you spend. Speaking from personal experience only, I had a huge case of the new-shinies when I joined the hobby. There were so many dolls I saw that I liked that I knew I would never sort out the one I wanted to start with. So for me, buying the one that was simply available and affordable made as much sense as anything else. Since I didn't have any great expectations about The Bonding Experience, it actually turned out better for me.

 

Sometimes, I'll admit, I get a little peeved when BBB's or RS dolls are discussed and someone says something like "Buy the doll you love." It can seem like someone is saying "C'mon, you don't really want that BBB, do you? Buy the doll you're *supposed* to want."

Are people really saying that? Most likely, no, but I can kind of see where someone might take that first sentence and have their brain translate to the second.

It might not be the best thing to say when discussing lower-priced brands because of the rumors surrounding why people buy BBB/RS dolls; however, I believe saying this sentence would less likely translate to something negative if it was put in a discussion of higher priced dolls, such as SOOM or Volks. I believe that more people would understand this sentence to mean "Be sure you really want to spend your money on x doll", rather than take it to mean some degree of skepticism as to why you're buying.

What people need to understand is that most people - because there is probably 1% of people who do intend for it to mean the second way - are just trying to advise you the best way they can. If you want that Soom, go for it. If you want that BBB, go for it. Just make sure you know that you're not buying the doll to please someone else, and you're not buying it for the sake of buying it.

And one thing always advisable when you don't know if you understand what someone has posted: politely ask them. Most likely, they won't bite, and they'll clarify things for you.

You make a very good point here, and it reminds me of my own BJD owning/saving style.

The first doll I ever wanted was an SD Kun. At the time, I only knew of Volks, and I liked that doll, and wanted it. Of course, no one would buy her for me, and I thought the only way I'd ever get this doll was to save the money and buy her myself. I'd saved for both my OT Dollfies, and they were only around $100 each - but this was a $600 BJD, and I knew I couldn't remain a sane person if I had to save up that much.

My first doll was a DM Kid, who is around the same price as a Volks MSD, I think. She took me three or four months to save for, but it was all worth it to see that box for the first time. She's both smaller and less expensive than the SD Kun, but I'm OK with that. After spending almost 2 straight years on DoA since joining (I was an on-and-off participant for a while) I came to learn just how many other doll companies there are. Now, while SD Kun is nice, and she remained on my wishlist for a while, she's no longer my grail doll. I don't even have one anymore. I figure that I cannot keep my sanity saving for a doll that costs over $600, but I don't have to because there are so many legit BJD companies with dolls that are less money than that. In fact, my third doll is going to be the doll I buy in two pieces - head, then body - because I'm not confident that I can save up the total $400+ at once.

But once I got my first doll, it felt like the world opened up for me. Sure, it didn't get me any popularity points, and I didn't fit in any more than I had - but I could participate more. Suddenly the thread for BJD Games was open to me because I had a legit, on-topic BJD! My first doll has over 400 pictures because I was that excited to share the fact that I had my own doll, now. I could discuss the pro's and cons of ownership, and doing all the things other owners did.

 

My first doll was an Iplehouse Soo Ri when I wanted a Volks. At the time, Iplehouse was one of the lower end dolls and it was the wrong doll for me, not because he lacked quality, but because my motivation for buying him was off. I was head over heels with SwD Lucas, but worried that I would be considered 'out of control' if I would go for such an expensive limited, and that is why I settled for a Soo Ri. I ended up selling him.
Now, I own another Iplehouse and I couldn't be happier with his pretty face. Then again, this time I chose him because I loved him, not because I cared about other people's opinions.

Any doll could be the right doll for you, as long as you know why you're buying it. If you're looking for a starter doll, that's fine. If you're uncomfortable with spending a lot of money on your first and so you have a fixed budget in mind, I can imagine. Most of the time when I'm advising someone to wait is when they want a doll - any doll - right now, because they are so cool and everyone has them.

I don't think it's elitist to ask someone to check their motivations and see if they really agree with them. It's not snobby, it's trying to prevent them from getting disappointed. The first doll should be a great experience, not a let down.

 

I have to agree with the 'snobbery' comment in the first couple of posts. Seeing how i've met a good handful of these, 'snobs', i can comment myself XD;
I've been talked down to by a couple of owners, dealt with their 'high and mighty' attitudes like they're superior to every other doll owner because they have more expensive dolls/more dolls/have been in the hobby longer. Which drives me insane. I've even left a BJD panel because of the speaker's attitude.
You can't do much about it so i just don't talk to the person. *shrug*
It made me quite sad when someone talked down about my dolls though. :c
Usually they're snobs to people with cheaper dolls like BBB/Resinsoul but i had a DZ Floy at the time and he wasn't cheap 500$ basic at the time.
*No offense to any BBB/Resinsoul owners!! I have friends that have them!*
I'll stop ranting now~

 

Snobbery is unavoidable in any hobby, and life in general.
There will always be people who set standards and see anything below that as not being good enough.
But those people just don't matter. And you shouldn't let anyone you have a bad experience with, or who doesn't think your doll is beautiful stop you from enjoying them!

That being said, not all people who own Volks or other higher priced dolls are stuck up.
This hobby has it's good and not so good people. It's best to just ignore them.
Remember you got into this hobby for you, not to please other people.

 

Truth. I laughed so hard when I once read someone comment that the KDF body is pretty much an ironing board. Well, standing next to a JID or a MNF it kinda is.


Echoing the general sentiment that it's less of elitism and more of general snobbery/rudeness. To be honest, I kind of find it hard to imagine a true elitist group, who honest-to-goodness think that Brand X is head and shoulders above all other lesser and worthless brands. The "worst" I have come across are people who are disgusted by the aesthetics of brand Y, and that's not even elitism; that's just strong preference. I have yet to come across anyone who campaigns "Brand X or nothing!". There is hardly a "best", when there are no hard and fast criteria to judge with in the first place. Everything in the BJD hobby is subjective (well, except for resin safety factor, customer service, or... ).

I am more predisposed to use the term "fanboyism" or the somewhat excessive adoration of a particular brand and defending it to the death from a hapless soul who woefully said something remotely negative.

Even some of the snobbery is perceived. At my first meet some people were very quiet, rarely standing up from their seats and walking around the place. My sister asked if they are snobbish, to which I replied not at all. And at home I then showed the conversations we had online at the LJ community. Some people are just too shy in person. How unfortunate if they should own a Volks or a Soom, for they will be branded an elitist. :/

 

Uh oh, I own Volks dolls! Will I be perceived as elitist?

Y'know, I've gotten snobby for *my own* collection--I'm narrowing down now that I better understand what I really want to keep, and I find I prefer certain makers' names to others. However, what *other* people have is what makes them happy. I've seen many a beautiful Bobobie with uber-proud owners and it warms my heart.

I also collect Monster High, rather the opposite of elite, IMO.

 

By what conceivable definition is this being snobby, though? Do you mean that you worry you'll be perceived as a snob because you don't own one of every doll from every company? According to a discouraging number of posts in this thread, you would BE a snob--hurtfully flaunting your unfairly large collection in the faces of more deserving people--if you did own one of every doll from every company.

Still, it sounds like you feel, on some level, that it's snobbish to buy only the dolls that you like. Should you be buying dolls that you don't like, instead? Why? To earn the respect of some screen name on the Internet?

Logic fail, in every possible direction.

I don't think you REALLY believe you're a snob; I think you're using the word to beat yourself up first, so the envy-bullies won't go after you. Speaking as a veteran of that strategy, I can testify that it didn't work in grade school. It won't work in the sometimes painfully grade-schoolish environment of the Intarwebs, either. How can it possibly be snobbery to conserve your money, and spend it only on the things that you know you want and can afford? Seems to me that that's discriminating and sensible budgeting, of which even Suze Orman would approve.

It makes me so very sad to see otherwise sensible people bend their necks to the whine-merchants by accepting labels like "snobby" and "elitist." The labels don't make even an iota of sense except (perhaps) in the extremely rare cases of people who are themselves bullies, and use their purported "standards" to cause pain to those they perceive as vulnerable. Do you really care if some online envy-monger perceives you in one way rather than another? Say it ain't so!

 

Exactly! I know that a lot of people like the really like the very skinny male doll bodies, but personally, I think that many of them look malnourished. When I look at doll bodies, I'm fine with a rib or two, but that's it. Does that mean I'm trying to say that my choices are better than everyone else's? No. We all have our preferences, and just because we have preferences, it doesn't mean we are putting down everyone else's.

I agree with yldenfrei, this hobby is very subjective. Most Volks and Soom dolls just don't excite me. Their styles don't work with my tastes, but I have no problem seeing other people's Volks or Soom dolls. Some of their sculpts are nice. In the right hands, any doll can look great.

 

Highlight and underline, because this is a page out of my personal autobiography. I have high standards for my dolls, I'm a little nervous when someone takes photographs of my dolls without permission, and I'm even more pissy when someone tries to touch them without permission. I'm sorry, but please don't grab my expensive hunk of resin without permission, even if it is "normal procedure" at the meetup group I am currently attending. It is so bad that I've thought of printing out a nice little sign on the edge...

But if I were to post, "Please do not touch or take photographs of the doll's w/o permission ~ Thank you," I would look like an elitist crab.

I just get a little overwhelmed by someone touching something that is so deeply personal like a doll would be, not because I think I am better or my dolls are better, it's just a bit too much invasion of personal space to not be given a simple courtesy to ask before touching. When someone invades my personal space too much I feel claustrophobic and a bit suffocated.

I love this. Tickled me pink.

I do believe you hit the nail on the head with this one; this is exactly what people infur when they say someone is an elitist, but elitist is just the wrong word chosen.

I have gotten this. When I first got into the hobby it was so common to share the price paid for a doll, particularly a limited garnered on the secondhand market. It was partially to share with others the extent taken to obtain this doll. The result was that people kept up-to-date with the market price of the item at the time.

Now, when someone asks me how much X doll cost me, I am hesistant to ask. Why? Because, I litteraly got the stink eye on more than one occasion for spending such a price on one doll, versus just going out and finding another one direct from the company. I was so floored that I couldn't even pry my jaw open enough to gape at them.



Extra: If I am meeting a new person in a doll-context who doesn't know me very well, I am mostly going to ramble about my Volks dolls. I own very few non-Volks in my collection, and I know very little about a lot of companies.. particularly the ones that have only been around for anything less than 3-4 years! I just don't keep up with companies, because Volks is generally my happy safe zone. Every time I go out and buy non-Volks it is usually for the wrong reason, like trying to "settle" for something with a lower price tag, when I'd really be happier with this other doll by Volks -- who I love love love. My dolls are not better than anyone else, I just.. well, I like my dolls better than someone else's, otherwise, I, erm, I would have bought the dolls they have. Every time I want "cheaper," I regretted it and ended up tossing it out the marketplace. I just don't bond with many non-Volks, there is something addicted about Volks... for me.

I like seeing people who are addicted to their dolls, whether it is a company, a certain face-up artist, or just whatever combination they put together. The whirly-eyed addict look when talking about dorries is thrilling for me to see, because I can guess I'll be able to ramble with them about how in love we are with our dolls.

My inability to talk about the company of someone else comes off as snobbish, I'm just plain uninformed. O.o I've been talked to by tons of new comers in the hobby who want my "expertise" on dolls, and I've fallen flat on my face not being able to help them. If they want to ask me, "Which Volks would suit this?" I could probably set them up with a blind date. But if they ask me, "My character is blah blah blah, I want my doll to look like this, oh and no, I can't afford/don't like/want something else than that company you love so much----" I feel deflated because I probably can't help them. I'll sit at my computer scratching my head saying, "Okay, um, I think I've seen a doll in the gallery at DOA once, but I don't remember the company's name. Er, I'll try!" And I fail, usually. I'm lame like that and a bit of a coward, staying safely with a company I love. For that, I'm sorry, but I am a coward.

I'd call myself more of a Volks addict than a Volks elitist, but I can see where people get this mistaken. I honestly don't care for the aesthetics of a lot of companies, but I think Two.S.Dolls have such adorable faces. T.T OMG. ><

 

Yes, it is. Expecting common courtesy from others makes you neither a "snob" nor an "elitist."

I still don't understand why anyone feels a need to apologize or berate him/herself for liking and buying what s/he prefers. You are neither lame nor a coward because you have found what you like and you buy what makes you happy. It makes me sad, and angry, and spitting-frustrated to think that this hobby fosters any such self-abasement. Please, please, please don't accept this burden. It isn't real, and anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is a bully.

Seems to me that it would take a lot of deliberate twisting to "get this mistaken." And people who twist others' words, feelings, and motives to gain emotional power are--say it with me, everybody--bullies. Even when they masquerade as helpless quivering victims.

Got an idea here. Let's call it the DOAth. Repeat after me: All BJD owners have an absolute right to buy what they like, own what they like, photograph what they like, and discuss what they like. They also have the opposite right not to buy, own, photograph, or discuss what they don't like. And their reasons are no one else's business.

What? That would take all the mean-spirited and victim-mentality fun out of online and meetup interaction? It would ask people to behave like rational, accountable beings who respect themselves and others? It would ask people to own their own choices and keep their mouths off other people's? It would spike the guns of those who get some kind of kick out of spreading campfire tales about Teh Ebil Elitists?

Good.

 

Well said. So very well said.

Maybe the DOAth should be a condition of membership.

 

I'm with Cynthia - sign me up for the oath & bury this freakin Sasquatch of a topic!

 

Well, if it's possible, why not have a tutorial on the idea? Not only could it stop the "elitism" idea, or the perception, but it can also benefit people who don't have the best social skills for whatever reason. It can save them from screwing up or embarassing themselves unintentionally.

I've been to a few websites where you have to go through some kind of tutorial/lesson set before you can use the site because it's important that you know certain things.

The mods can always email you the tutorial and not let you on until you complete it and they get notified.

 

*repeats like an elementary student at an auditorium meeting*