Elitism - How much is perceived?

HERE HERE! Finally this thread is going somewhere! And not only that, it's taking the "Is it Okay to do XYZ and the Third with my doll" threads with it. Thank you Cynthia! You've just saved the forum!

 

1. There used to be some spectacularly nasty elitism in "The Hobby". I witnessed it firsthand, particularly against All Things Chinese. Anyone who claims it didn't exist, or that the ONLY thing that existed was Reverse-Elitisim "Poor Me" Victim Mentality, either wasn't around with it happened, or in denial about it when it did.
2. There was also a defensive backlash against perceived elitism, whether it was actually intended or not.
3. Over the years, "The Hobby" has evolved into a more tolerant, kinder and gentler sport.
4. The new owners of DoA have been excellent at purging nasty comments, derailing discussions that veer into elitism/anti-elitism and that has done a lot to keep things sane and civil.
5. At this point, the only Elitism/I Hate Elitists that I even encounter are in these ENDLESS discussions about it.

At this point, the real question is, "Is this a Dead Horse or not?" Personally- I think the corpse is really beginning to smell.

With the exception of the before-mentioned nastiness, which was literally years ago, I find the overwhelming majority of people I interact with, both online and in person at meet-ups, cons, etc. to be supportive of EVERYONE, whether they have a $2000 limited full-set or an $80 Bobobie Tiny. I just personally do not see that Elitism/Reverse Snobbism anymore.

And thank God for that!

 

I don't know that it is that important. People like what they like and everyone thinks that their doll or doll company is the best thing since peanut butter. Quite frankly I don't care what people think. I put my dolls out there, if you love them, you love them, if you hate them, you hate them, and if you delete my picture thread with no explanation, then that is what you do! It doesn't define my life.

Some of the things that go on on DOA is just really outrageous to me. I guess people need the drama, position/title/status of having certain dolls or being in with the incrowd on DOA to make them feel important or adequate. No one could snob me or my dolls because i just don't care ot give them that level of power over my life!

 

I can definitely see the touching thing. Especially at a doll meetup. People there should definitely know how much these dolls cost and the owners may not want them touched for fear of damage.

However, I will say that I'm not sure why you are so worried about pictures. If you go to a doll meetup and take your doll(s), I feel like you're automatically giving everyone there permission to take pics of your doll(s) if they want to. But maybe that's just me.

You taking pics of your dolls in a public place, without it being a doll meetup in specific, feels a little different. People should be asking first. That's just polite. But not sure they really need to ask for a specifically arranged doll meetup.

 

I honestly have to say in the years I've been in this hobby I've never encountered any "Elitism". I guess that's not to say it's not out there, I just think some people are making a mountain out of a mole hill so to speak.

I think most of the people here just love their dolls and want to share their love with others that feel the same way.

I think that people are a touch too sensitive and twist random comments they read that are not even directed at them too personally and take it slightly out of context. "I don't like X" Is taken as "You have an X and they all suck so you do too"

This is the main reason I keep my opinions to myself. I don't really like fantasy dolls or the ones in an anime style. That being said, do I hate the doll companies that make these dolls or think the people who buy them are dumb and crazy. Of course not! They just aren't my cup of tea. I bet there's lots of people who ask, "Why are her dolls so boring looking! They don't even have backstories!" But I like my boring casual looking dolls just as much as the person who dresses their dolls to the nine's every day.

I think we should all just get along, what we do with our dolls we do cause it brings us joy, it's easy to make assumptions and judge someone. But that's not why most of us are here so why do we make such a huge deal out of something that's not? I may not totally "get"the anthro dolls and kinda think they are creepy and would never want one. But when I see one I make myself remember that the owner of that doll loves it very much and sees something in it that I don't; and if not for this difference of opinion all the dolls made would be too similar and there wouldn't be the diversity I've come to love from this hobby. And I need to respect the doll and its owner cause I would want them to do the same for me and my dolls.

I try very hard to be diplomatic with the things I say online. It's too easy to hurt someone's feelings even unintentionally. A little common curtsey and empathy goes a long way. and remember what mom used to say, "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all"

 

I think a lot of it is percieved. It's when people see doll owners with, like, 20 dolls, that are all from either the same company, or maybe three companies that are expensive, that they jump to the conclusion that the owner is "elitist".

I'll admit it, when I see a person with a ton of Soom dolls, an Volks, and Luts.
And these conclusions, the few times I've done it, aren't really a matter of price... it's just a feeling of "Oh, that's odd... are they getting all these dolls because they like the sculpts, or because they're the 'In' BJD's to have."

But in reality? That probably isn't the case. It's more a coincidence, usually, and the owner just likes those sculpts.

At the same time, it's odd, for me, to see people own dolls like this, and go through them so fast. Always putting them on the marketplace, and always buying new ones... A dolls lifespan in the BJD community seems so short, and I just don't understand that, it feels like there's no bond, even though everyone goes on and on about the bonds they have with their dolls... They sure seem like short lived bonds. :/

I can agree on here, about the sort of reverse elitism. But I think it goes all ways. So, in theory...
The person with the BBB complains about how the Volks owners hate them and their dolls, which is usually based in reality, after seeing a comment somewhere MADE by an owner of a more expensive doll, saying they're not a fan of BBB. The BBB owner takes it the wrong way, and complains about elitists... Meanwhile the "elitists" notice the BBB owners carrying on like this, and THEY take it the wrong way.
It's a vicious circle I think. There's mild animosity on both sides, but it's fueled by either side. :/

And like it was said before, a lot of it is an urban legend... A few bad things have happened, and the stories have circulated. And KNOWING the stories, people jump to conclusions.

It's... Well, it's like when you're walking alone at night. 99% of everyone who pass has no plans to hurt you. BUT you know there are people like that out there, so you're jumpy, paranoid, and rush home in a hurry, fearing the worst.

 

Remember that not everybody does the bonding thing with their dolls. Some people just like to collect them.

Also, remember that everybody has their own reasons for selling any doll. Even those who do the bonding thing with their dolls, cannot bond with a doll that's not right for them, so they sell it.

Also, I don't see how anybody's sales habits has anything to do with elitism.

 

Same here.
Don't touch them without asking and don't take pictures of them except when I'm watching over you and know you.
In my case it happened more than once that after a meet I suddenly find pictures of one of my male dolls dry-fucking with another male doll, and I just hate that.
Since then I have this "no pictures of my doll" policy. I think that's even worse than the touching.
I always ask people if I'm allowed to touch the doll or take pictures of it, and I also always show the pictures to the owner directly after taking them. Hell, I usually tell them to stay with me and pose/hold the doll.

@Cynthia in FlintHills:

Not sure about the "oath", since there is nothing about "and everyone has the right to dislike something and talk about it". There is a difference between disliking and just not liking, at least for me.

Funny thing is: In the end it doesn't matter what you do, say, or do not and don't say.
If someone doesn't want to like you, he/she simply won't.
Said person will also see everything you say/do as something annoying.
It's a bit of paranoia, when you expect everyone to dislike you every laugh and every look seem to be some kind of threat.
If you want to see the elitist volks meanies (or whatever), they will be there. Even if they are just sitting there with their doll in their lap, doing nothing.

 

I'm one of those people who doesn't 'bond' with her dolls in the usual meaning of the word (as it is used in the BJD world). To me, bonding means 'liking the doll enough to keep', but that's a mouthful, so I usually stick with the shorter word, bonding, to indicate that I like the doll in person just as much as I liked her on official photos. Therefore, if I don't enjoy the doll as much as I thought I would, I have no qualms selling her.

 

It existed, but for a reason: the first couple of Chinese companies to sell internationally created a bad name for all Chinese doll companies by marketing recasts. It took a while for Chinese companies to rise above that stigma (which they did by sculpting their own dolls), but the sentiment stuck around for a few years anyhow.

What I see now concerning 'elitism' comes from doll owners themselves who worry about how others are perceiving their dolls... so I guess I am saying that 'perceived elitism' is the issue I see more now days.

I purchased DoD dolls in 2004 when they were considered the "cheap" dolls. Now I could be considered an 'elitist' if someone saw that my collection includes several DoD? So I have gone from 2004 cheapskate to 2012 elitist with the same collection of dolls. If I cared about how others interpreted my choices of dolls, I could have run through the full spectrum of dolly persecution; fortunately I haven't because I do not worry about how others see my doll family.

 

Elitism exists everywhere. It is snobs - it is thinking one is better than someone else for purely superficial reasons, or that because one is better at one thing it makes them better in toto.
It has nothing to do w/liking or disliking certain types of things (dolls here), or being antsy about others touching possessions, etc.
I've encountered elitism everywhere - NOT a lot of it, just there. I've had an encounter w/a doll person (note the singularity) where, I'm sorry, the person was being NASTY. As in, rude, unsociable, mean, snubbing. You think you've a right to act that way in front of me, especially to someone else, you've got a big problem w/me.
Really has nothing to do w/rights to buy, like, use, photo according to your own quirks. Or to having your own individual opinion about things (dolls, makeup, bonding, style, whatever).

 

I remember a saying about paranoia; it had something to do with the fact that no matter what the reality is, if a paranoid person believes something else is true, it IS true - for them.

And then there's also the self-fulfilling prophecy, which can be where someone - convinced that Volks owners all believe they're superior - are going to treat the Volks owners like they're stuck-up snobs. I can only assume that if that goes on for long enough, the Volks owners are going to get snotty with the owners - not because they were like that from the start, but because people are being nasty to them.

As far ask I know, people in this hobby are buying dolls because they want the dolls, and they want the dolls because they like the dolls, and they might fit an OC. I don't think anyone should be pressured into liking a doll or a company for another person. You can dislike any doll you want in this hobby, and there's no rule saying you can't. As long as no one's following their statements with violence towards you and/or your doll, or if they say something like "I think there's something wrong with people who like X dolls," or "And neither should anyone else," I don't see anything worth getting upset over.

Besides, just because someone dislikes a sculpt or a company, it doesn't mean they've seen every doll that's ever been owned. Maybe your doll is the doll that makes them go "Hm, this is an interesting doll," and they go away with a different outlook.

 

For me, I am picky about who I will and won't allow to touch my dolls, for the obvious damage concerns (and not because I'm trying to be mean/elitist/rude to anyone).

When it comes to pictures, I'm also a bit paranoid: I fear that someone may someday take pics of my doll, and use those pics to "sell" a doll they don't have (and therefore scam some poor buyer out of lots of money!). I don't know if this has ever happened in the past. Maybe it's an irrational fear, but I'd feel AWFUL if I was even unintentionally involved in such a situation.

On the topic of elitism, I've never assumed that people with pricier dolls are "elitist," just lucky to have a bigger doll budget!

 

While at an anime convention, someone who was selling doll items told me about how a customer traded in her RS Dai because people made fun of her for it, saying that was all she could afford, etc. In that case, I believe that much elitism is absolutely ridiculous and that people have no right to make fun of anyone else for what they can or can't afford.

Now in the case of disliking a company in particular, I completely understand if you've had bad experiences with that company's posing or aesthetics and simply don't prefer their dolls, but that's no reason to bash anyone else for having them. For example, I'm not the biggest fan of Doll Leaves (mostly because of the company face-ups they have in promo pictures). I don't prefer their dolls for aesthetic reasons, but would never make fun of anyone else for having one, as that's their personal preference as well. In this case, I feel that the golden rule comes into play- treat others as you would want to be treated.

 

I only buy from one company, but I don't think that makes me a snob. Those are just truly my favorite bjd's! But if I told someone that my favorite company was the only one anyone should buy from, and that their dolls were ugly - then I'd be a snob. Does it exist? Yup. But I think people are keeping it more to themselves at this point.

 

Companies often have a particular sculpting style, and if you love a company's style it makes sense to end up with multiples from that company. When you add in non-sculpt related factors such as customer service and perceived quality, then it's easy to see why people have their fave companies. I myself used to by from anywhere if the sculpt caught my eye, but after awhile that became overwhelming, and I cut back to where I try to only buy certain companies' dolls. They fit better together as a group that way, and it's a lot easier for me to keep up with what dolls are out there that I might want. Also, keep in mind that companies can attain a high level of popularity for concrete reasons rather than just people wanting to fit in.

Remember, people are buying over the net. Pics aren't the same as holding the doll in your hands, and it's very possible to think that you really wanted the doll only to receive it and decide it isn't quite what you thought. Other people don't bond easily or don't put emphasis on bonding. I do, and I have yet to turn around and sell a doll quickly. However, I have sold dolls before when my tastes changed and have known people that genuinely had trouble finding 'keepers'. And then there's LEs -- you don't have the luxury to sit and really think over whether or not you want the doll, so it encourages people to take a chance.

It's impossible to say there are no elitists in reality at all, because all groups of people will have a few bad apples. However, it has always struck me that the fear of the people with the expensive dolls looking down their noses is based more on suspicious attitudes towards the less expensive dolls when they first started hitting the market. But that was years ago now, there just isn't widespread animosity right now. People need to let go of their defensiveness a bit. There doesn't need to be any preemptive strikes against people who own pricier dolls -- the vast majority of the pricier doll people really don't care if someone buys a less expensive doll or not.

Yes, and it's often the negative stories that get passed around and remembered making it seem like these instances are far more frequent than they really are. However, there is no reason to be jumpy and paranoid whether you are buying more or less expensive dolls. Most people don't care what you buy, and those few that do -- well, what power do they really have? All they can do is make a rude comment that makes them look bad. Most people don't tolerate that kind of behavior.

I know it can be especially tough for younger members in particular to shrug off a negative encounter or post, but honestly, people need to realize that they are ultimately in this hobby for themselves. If someone is really going to be a jerk, then all it does is reflect badly on their social skills and make them seem like immature little snots. It says nothing negative about the doll in question or owner. People get very worried about whether or not there are elitists lurking out there, but if there are, they only have power over you if you give it to them by taking what they say to heart.

 

I feel the need to say that I don't go to meetups and bring my dolls to allow people to take photographs, I bring them to share the experience of the dolls. So they can ask and feel the dolls, take a look at the clothes and the accessories, or inquire about the face-up artists in person.

For me it is sort of like going to a museum and taking pictures of something on display, when there is a sign saying "NO PHOTOGRAPHS." No, my dolls are not famous pieces of works, but I am uncomfortable with photographs being taken without permission. I don't know what someone is going to do with those photos, where they are going to be posted, or how they will be used. It's just an uncomfortable feeling for me and I'd much rather people not take photos of my dolls at meet ups. When there are photos of them, I want to have control of the background, the scenery, the lighting, all that good stuff.

I realize that my opinion is probably really alien to most people, since I used to be completely comfortable with meet up attendee's taking photographs of my dolls. Overtime I grew uncomfortable with that, and I don't hold the same opinion I once did, let alone the majority of attendees. I want to peaceably bring up the thoughts of someone who may not want their doll's photographs taken w/o permission.

This is why I am a "Volks Elitist," and by that I mean I only buy dolls by a select list of companies on a regular basis, namely Volks. I feel like everytime I try another company I end up regreting it and just not bonding, because part of what I am looking for is a cohesiveness in my collection, for the dolls to look good together. I fuss and worry over the appearance of my non-Volks more than the Volks, because Volks seem to be my favored medium to play with.

It isn't that I think they are better, it is that I think Volks is the best for me to use. It is sort of like pointe shoes when I dance, I can apprecate the beauty of Freeds and the lower prices of Capizio, but hell or high water I love Grishkos; they just fit better. I am a lot more confident prepping the Grishkos for pointe work than I have been when I'm trying to prep a Freed, because they just aren't the brand for me. It's all artistry, and pointe shoes are a great example of the intense intimacy of the artistry in dolls. Heck, I don't even like all the works by Volks, I seem to only like one or two "families" of dolls and their sculpters. The rest I could just pass on.

 

If you go to a museum, then generally you can take photographs of artwork that is owned by the museum. You can't take photographs of artwork that is on loan because it is not owned by the museum. However, as part of the price of your admission, you are likely giving permission to photographs of YOURSELF to be taken and used by the museum in any way they see fit (for publicity and such).

Also, anyone can take your picture or a picture of anything that is visible from the sidewalk, because it is considered in a public place. They do not need your permission, for instance, if you are walking across Union Square in San Francisco to take your picture and use it any way they see fit (I think I have that right, model release law gets very complicated).

In my opinion when you go to a Meet-up or a convention it is similar to being in a public place, especially if it is HELD in a public place. To me it is kind of implied consent. So if you really don't want photos taken of your dolls, perhaps you should make a small sign to put near your doll saying No Photographs without Permission Please.

I have dolls from a very wide variety of companies, including some of the higher end ones, like Volks and CP/Luts and Iplehouse, DIM, Soul doll, etc. I love them all, for different reason. But what I hate is when people assume that I have Resin Soul or Bobobie dolls (which I actually am very fond of) because I "can't afford what I really want". That is the kind of statement that makes me crazy. I find the quirky faces of the Resin Soul dolls to be really appealing, it has nothing to do with price.
I have absolutely no problem with people who only collect Volks, and I can understand why they do. Volks have a certain look to them and are generally pretty easy to identify by their style, resin qualtiy, etc. If I had started with Volks, I may have decided to only buy Volks too. But I didn't, I knew nothing about "The Hobby" when I bought my first doll, had only vaguely heard of Volks, had never been to a meet-up, etc. So I came into this blind and my first BJD was a vinyl Obitsu Gretel- which is still my favorite of all of my dolls, incidentally.

I will say that in the years that I have been involved in BJD, I see less and less of elitism, and generally when I do see it it is from people who have issues with courtesy and social skills anyway. So I tend to see it less as a reflection on the BJD Hobby as just an example of bad manners from someone who is probably rude in every other aspect of their life as well.

My daughter was a Russian Pointe girl.

 

To no-one in particular:

Could we now get back on topic, please? Girlwholived feels uncomfortable about strangers taking pictures of her dolls. You might not agree with her, but that’s the way she feels. Telling her it’s ‘stupid’ to think that way is not going to change her mind. This isn’t discussing a difference in opinion, it’s discussing someone’s fear or discomfort and I think that’s borderline rude.

It is annoying. Kind of like when people told me I had to be an elitist (after I specifically told them I was not), because I only own high-end dolls and if I weren't I would've bought a BBB or RS too. It's just a kind of assumption that's completely unfair and it doesn't matter what you say in defense, because your words will get twisted anyway.

... Funny thing is: I do own a Domuya body and wasn't that a lower end company? (not sure, 'cause don't care)

But, personally, I still often see very vicious remarks regarding Volks and Volks owners. Not on this forum but facebook, youtube, DevArt, tumbler... you name it. I don't consider it elitism: these comments are based in insecurity and I think they are a direct response to the idea that volks-owners must be elitists and look down on other brands. But it's annoying nonetheless and I wish this artificial gap between BBB and Volks would be closed.

 

With dolls, as in life, I have the attitude of live and let live. My larger BJDs, over six inches tall, are mostly Volks because those are the dolls I prefer. The teeny tinies are all over the map, because again, I bought the dolls I liked.

My ABJD collection started with a Volks doll, but don't feel that makes me an elitist. To answer the question posed in the title of this thread, I think it's all a matter of individual perception. I choose to believe that other doll collectors enjoy their dolls their way, as I enjoy mine in my way. I haven't encountered elitism. Yes, I've seen people do and say stupid things at doll gatherings, but this type of behavior happens everywhere in life. Yet unlike real life where you can be persecuted for non-conforming to the popular or majority, I don't think anyone has ever been forced to flee a BJD meet-up for having the "wrong" brand of doll. Can't you just see the unfortunate doll lover clutching their poor little piece of resin protectively to them, as an angry mob of BJD elitists brandishing restringing tools chases them away for not having the "right" brand of doll?

I do admit that just like anyone else, I enjoy hearing positive things about my dolls becase they reflect my person taste and style. But conversely, if no one looks twice at my doll, or makes negative comments, it doesn't affect my feelings about my doll and how I've chosen to present them. I didn't get into this hobby because I thought it would make me popular, nor do I even give a thought to how popular a paticular doll brand is or isn't. I'm secure in what I like that I don't need anyone else's approval. There's part of me that feels like screaming right now the words "Oh good God I can't believe we're still babbling on this topic!" I would think by now, as more and more people have come into the hobby, and more and more companies produce these dolls, this "elitism" would no longer be an issue. But apparently it still is, and requires as I post my reply, eighteen pages of previous posts. Do we never evolve? Does this go on with other doll hobbists? Do Gene collectors turn their noses up at Tyler people? Are Fashion Royalty fans out for Barbie collector's blood? Does Madame Alexander Cissy snootiness occur when they see devotees of Evangline Ghastley? Do baby doll reborners mean to scare the bejeezes out of the rest of us? Well yeah maybe, but that's beside the point.... Seriously though, I'm just thankful that there's still enough BJD diversity out there for me to be interested in and attracted to. Unlike the fashion doll lines, which have winnowed down to a mere handful, compared to what existed less than a decade ago. Trust me, we are in the salad days of BJD-dom people, can't we just all play nice and enjoy while it lasts? And so long as it's a legit doll maker, can we all stop worrying about what everyone else might be thinking about the brand of doll we or someone else chooses to buy, bond with, or simply collect?!

Juli DC