Elitism - How much is perceived?

I must have missed the post where anyone said anything was "stupid". I also did not disagree with her feeling the way she does, I was merely explaining why other attendees at meets might not realize she didn't want her dolls photographed. And made a POLITE suggestion that she put up a little sign or somehow signify that she isn't comfortable with it. In my experience, most people seem to take other people wanting to photograph their dolls as a compliment.

Did you miss the part where I said have dolls from MANY companies, including Volks? Don't bother looking at my profile, I stopped updating it two or three years ago. And I have taken a full range of dolls to meet-ups and cons. When I took a Volks I did not get any rudeness from owners of less-expensive dolls, and when I took RS dolls or my vinyl Obitus- I didn't get sneered at by Volks owners.

Maybe things are different in Northern CA and SF Bay Area for doll owners than the rest of the world. I honestly do not see EITHER that elitism everyone is always talking about, nor do I see this "attack on Volks owners". At all the meet-ups, conventions, and museum events I've been too, everyone has been really supportive of each other, regardless of the dolls they own. The Bay Area is very tolerant in general, so maybe that extends to doll owners too.

The only animosity I have actually encountered personally has always been right here in DoA in these "elitism" threads.

 

I'm sure it is partly a matter of who happens to live in what area, but I've encountered very little negativity or drama at meetups where I am either. There's usually a wide range of dolls and everybody's friendly. Where I see the negative stuff is the internet which of course brings lots of people together in one space and gives people a nice sense of anonymity to hide behind. That being said, it's hardly rampant.

I sometimes see statements that strike me as being not well thought out, but not intended to be elitist either -- sometimes it's just poor wording or tone not coming through. I have seen a noticeable number of unnecessary negative comments directed towards some of the pricier dolls or people being willing to spend more. Some of the latter I think comes from people who haven't gotten over the sticker shock yet and are still trying to justify they're own spending (after all, even inexpensive abjds are still a big chunk of money), and young people who don't know how different it is to be a financially stable adult.

The former are the ones that give off a definite defensive sort of vibe -- as if they feel people are trying to force them to like the pricey dolls and/or the owners of said pricey dolls are going to look down at their less expensive purchases. None of this is stuff that happens all the time, if anything, it seems that certain threads trigger it and get certain people going. The one thing that tends to annoy me is people being hypocritical where if you were to talk about their fave dolls and companies the way they talked about other dolls/companies they'd be screaming accusations of elitism faster than lightning. Point out that they are perhaps being a bit rude, and suddenly you're trying to force them to like said dolls/companies and are therefore being a doll snob. It's just plain silly. Again, it tends to be certain threads that attract that kind of nonsense, but wow, what eye-roll material when it does happen. To an extent, stuff like the above is going to crop up from time to time -- there's just too many people interacting to never rub each other the wrong way, misscommunicate, have a bad day, etc. It actually amazes me that DoA doesn't have a lot more problems considering it's size -- this overall is a pretty well behaved internet community.

What's unfortunate is when people assume that a comment on-line is indicative of how most hobbyists act and then are afraid to get involved with the community and to do things like meetups. Plus they tend to then spread around the rumor of how elitist DoA and/or the hobby in general is.

 

I wasn't being entirely serious when I wrote that, but did think, well, MAYBE it's different other places and that would explain why I haven't seen it?

So true. You kind of loose perspective after you have been collecting BJDs for a while. On the rare occasion that I tell someone who is NOT a doll person how much even an $80 BBB tiny costs, they are amazed. Usually when a civilian asks me how much the dolls cost, I don't answer them, I simply direct them here, the Volks website, ebay, or to Junky Spot or one of the other online stores.
And yes-it is way different to save your money for an expensive doll when you are not also dealing with mortgage payments, braces, college tuition, medical bills, etc. The amount of income a person has really has no bearing on how much they spend on dolls.

Also true! I have HEARD (read) about elitism and reverse-elitism far far more than I have actually seen it. In five years I can only recall a handful of truly snotty comments in either direction posted- the rest of it is just endless debate over whether it exists.

 

Dolly Photographs Discomfort: Actually, I started talking about it because I would love to put a sign that says "Do not touch or photograph without permission", but I am afraid to do that because I have fears that I'll be shelved as an elitist or some other horrible person.

 

I really don't see a lot of elitism from doll owners in the US, but I actually saw a lot in Korea. It mattered how expensive your doll was. :/

 

girlwholived, if it makes you uncomfortable, then putting up a little sign is the way to go, otherwise people simply won't know that you don't want pictures of your dolls taken. It doesn't make you an elitist in my eyes at all; just somebody who is uncomfortable with having her dolls photographed/touched.

On the photography issue, I don't mind if my doll's picture is taken. I figure that if I bring out my doll in public, I by default give people permission to take photos of it. But, that's just my take on it and I generally always ask before taking pictures of anyone's dolls, unless I know that they are fine with it (for example, dolls being on display during conventions - I assume that it's fine taking photos of them without asking for permission).

I never touch anyone's dolls. Never. I generally don't even handle others' dolls even if permission is given - I'm too paranoid of accidents. Also, I really dislike my stuff being handled by others (I even don't like my husband touching my dolls and he kindly never does ) - I'm very "type A" personality when it comes with keeping my possessions clean and pristine, so I get anxious when others handle my things, especially collectibles and electronics. This doesn't make me an elitist, just OCD about keeping my stuff nice and neat - for better or worse .

 

Also, in terms of photography in museums, a lot of times the "no photography" rule is more for flash photography. We'd visited a museum for a class last year, and a sign said "no photography", but when we asked the clerk, he said non-flash was fine.

As long as my doll is always in view so that I can keep track of what people are doing, pose-wise, I'm fine with doll pictures. But I can definitely see how my tune would change if I had a bunch of bad experiences with people in regards to my dolls. I second that idea of having a sign up; some people may not feel comfortable going up to you and asking (if they're too shy and might not know you), and it gives people an answer before they even ask.

 

I was actually called an elitist not too long ago.. which actually took me by surprise.. I JUST joined the BJD community.. less than a month ago?? I was asked by someone on msn which brands of doll I particularly enjoyed and I responded Souldoll because I have a vito!! and went on to describe why I adore that brand.. I like that brand because its my ONLY doll I have, and I spent a year trying to pick out the perfect doll for myself.. I never once wanted to sound rude or snobby but is it fair to be called an elitist for only knowing what I know? I dont know good vs. "bad" brands.. All bjd's are beautiful in their own way.. every single one. Im biased to souldoll? so what? its the only brand i have xD Im looking into a DIMdoll for my second. Im just getting familiar!! i thought it was really rude to be called that.

 

Since that is what I suggested (to put up a little sign), I personally don't find anything wrong with it at all, and I don't see why people would think you were being elitist. Especially if you are otherwise friendly.

I also feel that if you go to a convention or meet-up in a public place, you are kind of by default granting permission for photos to be taken, but if you don't want it, then you should be allowed to put up an opt-out sign. There is also a difference between crowd or distant shots and close-ups of an individual doll. The people hosting the convention, for instance, can't ask every single person when they are taking pictures of the room if each person in the shoot doesn't mind having a photo of their dolls in the picture. Or it someone is taking a picture of a doll and yours happens to be in the background. However, if someone is specifically focusing on your doll in a close-up- then the polite thing to do is ask permission. But I find that people almost always DO ask if they can take a picture.

I don't think anyone should EVER touch another person's doll without their permission. And also, having someone say they don't mind if you photograph their doll does NOT mean it's all right to move it, pose it, etc. unless the owner says it's okay. I hate it when someone takes one of my dolls and poses it and takes pictures of it. I guess that's my own personal achille's heel-I am usually very picky about how my dolls are posed, and it bugs me when other people pose my dolls.

As far as museums go- I think the No Flash rule is to protect the artwork from bright light exposure and also to be considerate of other museum goers. But it is also true (my daughter works at a major museum) that museums will not let you photograph artwork that is on loan because it is not their property. Pieces in the permanent collection are usually okay to photograph. But even then certain artists will not allow their pieces to be photographed for fear of copying, unlawful reproductions being made etc.

ANYWAY- back to the whole Elitism thread- if you not wanting people to photograph your dolls without your permission makes you an elitist, then I guess I would be an elitist too because I don't want people posing my dolls or touching them without my permission.

Finally- I think I have issues with the terminology people use. Actually, "elitist" is not a derogatory term, and elitism is a good thing in many ways- it keeps standards high, for instance. I think the real issue is "snobbism". You can be an elitist without being a snob- Elitism just means that you adhere to certain standards that are important to you. "Snob" just means you are a pain-in-the-behind show off who likes to look down on other people.

So maybe the real question should not be "are there Elitists in the Hobby", but "Are there Snobs in the Hobby".

SixxMacabre- who ever called you that has a problem. Soul dolls are beautiful (I have one, also a DIM). I can really understand people sticking with only ONE company- whether it be Volks, Soul Doll, Dim, Luts/CP, Soom, or Resin Soul. You are drawn to a certain style just like you are drawn to certain flavors in food, types of flowers. Generally all the sculpts in one company are cohesive and "related". I feel that way about Elfdoll- I have two and I could have ten and not get tired of their sculpts. But I am eclectic and like to see a lot of different types and styles, so I have a broad range of dolls from different companies.

 

Try to make your boundaries clear and someone will shout "OPPRESSION!" eventually. Just keep in mind that it is not you who is at fault, but the person who cannot respect other people's boundaries.

 

Did you actually read my post? I don't really get why you are underlining that you own Volks, when I was agreeing with you in my last reply. I was acknowledging what you said by adding my personal experiences. I was also saying how I don't think any of these comments are actual elitism, but a reaction based on rumours that this hobby is still filled with snobby people and how I wish that these would stop (outside of DoA), so this thread could be closed.

You said a few pages back that anyone denying that Chinese company bashing existed is in denial. I tell you, same goes for people claiming high-end doll-bashing didn't exist. They're two sides of the same coin and this hobby is filled with drama.

 

Talking about meets and such:
The ones I was were so far always awesome and kind, as long as it wasn't on conventions directly.
The ones on conventions were usually...yeah, not my cup of tea, mostly because I'm not really into Manga/Anime anymore and also because you clearly had two groups that were always bitching at each other:
Random doll owner-chan who just was able to scrap together enough money to get a full-set Doll-Zone Mo (THE beginner doll in Germany), usually still very young and often bragging about how awesome and pretty their doll is, jumping around, touching everything, taking pictures.
AND
Advanced doll owner-san that has been in the hobby for a longer time, had a larger collection, a doll that was usually customized (pretty custom face-up, wonderful dress etc.) and who seemed a bit unnerved about Random-chans jumpy and loud behaviour.
In the end there was either drama or at least two groups of owners sitting next to each other and not talking for various reasons.
Who's the elitist in this case?
The n00b or the uber pro collector?
None of them actually, they both had legit reasons to maybe dislike each other but there was actually clearly an issue in their communication (("Random-chan takes pictures of my dolls, but I don't like it when strangers do that!" vs. "Advanced-san is an elitist because she doesn't like me as a new owner and therefor forbids me to take pictures of her doll").
It's like the eternal fight young vs. old, the old ones need to stay calm, be open and help the new ones, and the new ones sometimes need to take a step back.

I only had a doll with me once, when I got my first, and a person just picked him up and sat him on another table, saying "I don't want your doll next to mine, since he's male and she's female. People could mistake them for a couple.".
Whatever you want lady, but don't just pick him up and put him away, Jesus Christ o_O

Private, 100% doll-meets are here usually among an already exisiting group of doll-friends where one occassionaly brings fresh meat () into the group.
It's a bit sad that nowadays they are 100% private, but we decided to do it like that because we had more than once newbies that behaved in a non-acceptable way (one girl was drawing for example and her black was empty, so she just took one of the Soom Shonkies from the Admins and used her spare hand for...drawing).

What I want to say: Meets are a very difficult subtopic in the "Elitism" topic :/
People call us elitists because our meets are private, but we had to do that after a few meets where people showed up that just didn't know how to behave.
Some people are better in handling new owners, others are not etc.
Sometimes you might like someones dolls but not them as a person or vice versa.
That girl who put away my doll was, in my eyes, an elitist bitch at that moment, nowadays I just think "Well, she could have at least asked me".

PS: People should also learn to see the owner without the dolls.
Just because I have XY dolls doesn't mean I am a kind of ZY person.
My character is not determined by my collection and vice versa, I'm not a lovely being because I own only BBBs and I'm not an elitist prick because I own Volks.
I was probably already a nice/mean/whatever person before I got my dolls, and maybe I had more than once a shitty thing happening to me/my dolls before that makes me the way I am.
Why is that so hard to understand for a lot of people?

 

It was very rude of that person to call you an elitist when they specifically asked you to name dolls you liked/brands you enjoyed. If they weren't prepared to accept whatever answer you gave, they have no business asking you the question!

Enjoy your Vito and don't let anyone else's weird biases stop you enjoying what you like! Contrary to what the dramatic types would have us believe, this hobby is all about celebrating what YOU like as an owner/collector and to Hades with everyone else's opinions. No one should collect anything for someone else's enjoyment if it's not to your own taste.

 

^This. Vito is a beautiful doll and it's only natural to be 'biased' to Souldoll when you only own 1 doll. Hey, I'm still biased to Dollstown and Volks after owning doll parts from 10 different companies... there's nothing wrong with having a preference.

 

Woohoo!!

A friend pointed me to a particularly "amusing" post made lately and my initial reaction, before even coming here to look, was:

"They're STILL going on about this?"

I don't know whether I think of it so much as a Sasquatch as a cockroach... ("it was the thread that never ends... it just goes on and on my friend...")

But the DoAth works for me. Move along, people, move along. Nothing left to see here. <-- note winky smiley. This is intended to point out that I'm saying all of the above in a giggle.

 

Because you seemed to focus on the "Resin Soul" part of my response, and what I was trying to point out is that I have been on both ends of the scale.

As far as people touching dolls- I do a lot of things with Non-BJD people- museum and art center displays, book-signings, etc. I take a range of dolls with me. The "no-touch" dolls are arranged so that they are standing- these are Volks, Elfdoll, Lumedoll, DIM, Luts, Iplehouse- whatever I feel like taking. I have a large, clear sign that says "Please do not touch standing dolls". Generally my Obitsus are standing dolls too, because even though they are vinyl and not as expensive, they have to be manipulated a certain way or their internal joints will break.

Because people who have never seen these dolls before are curious about how they work, I also take dolls that can be touched and held, and they are seated on a little sofa or on chairs. These are usually my Resin Soul and Doll Zone dolls. I also have a sign near them that says "Seated dolls may be touched and held" and I encourage people to handle them.

Spot on! Dolls are a reflection of the people who own them in more ways than one!

And I agree that some new doll owners are annoyingly hyper- but I have also seen new doll owners at meet-ups or cons (I've only been to just BJD cons, not mixed anime/bjd cons) who have been completely shy and sitting apart from everyone, totally overwhelmed by the more experienced owners and not knowing how to break in. So I think it is kind to make a point to speak to someone who seems unsure or insecure about being there, ask them about their doll, find SOMETHING about their doll (even if you personally think it is fugly) to compliment, etc.

 

In that case we've both been misinterpreting each other, because I wan't just focusing on the RS part of your response. ;p I know you're an Elfdoll lover, and have dolls all over the BJD spectrum. (I seem to recall that you own/ have owned a shinydoll as well, who is an acrobat, or was that an other member with a daughter who's been in the circus?)

 

I got actively involved in BJD forums and meet ups because of the lack of elitism. I am 51 and look it. The first time I wandered into a meet up at an Anime Con, without a doll, I was treated with kindness and respect.

I really think any hobby has elitists. I was involved in the pet/aquarium business for over 10 years and some fish people can be crazed with their set ups and snobbiness.

Just enjoy your dolls and carry on.

 

So funny that you said that, because I've been away from the computer and thinking about it and was just going to pm you with an apology for sounding snippy! It was not my intention at all. And yes- I'm the one with the Shinydoll Contortionist (on two bodies- one is a highly-modified bbb body, the other is a 50 cm Obitsu), and I based her youtube routine on what my daughter did in her circus act.

And the bottom line is- I think 99.9% of the people in this hobby are truly sincere about their choices and loving the dolls they own, and also that same percentage of people are respectful and accepting of other people's choices. Many of us are isolated from other doll owners in our daily lives, and when I go to a con or a meet-up, I'm just happy to be with other people who "get" the whole thing, regardless of what their individual focus might be.
Thanks for you kind comments- I do appreciate it!

 

This is exactly what I would have said, perfect answer. And I really like being able to experiment with my doll, where if she were more expensive, I wouldn't have been as adventurous. She's still beautiful and elegant, regardless of the dollar investment.