Elitism - How much is perceived?

Doesn't sound like snobbery to me. Just a reality check. Hey... if you don't have the money, you don't. It doesn't mean you're a bad person or anything else. If you suddenly found great wealth, it wouldn't mean you're better, either. Anyone can save up enough money for a doll if they kept at it over time. What kind of person you are doesn't matter.

I'll never have enough money to own a castle. Oh, well. Doesn't mean those that have castles are more elite or better than I am. Or that people who do own castles are somehow putting me down for not being able to afford one. Or that people need to tell me that castle-owning probably isn't for me!!!

 

^Yes!

Sometimes asking the wrong question can cause a firestorm here, which is why I decided to take a step away from the forums for a week.

And I agree that any trolling has been taken care of well before they've had a chance to spread their wings.

You do have to examine what's being said, and take it for face value. People who read into things make things a whole lot harder than they were supposed to be. I notice that there are a few people in this hobby who act like you're trying to persecute them by asking for certain clarification.

I don't have any idea why people keep insisting that there is some kind of rampant elitism.

But what I do know is that it's annoying to have someone say this, and then everyone has to go in and do damage control. How many times has it been? I've lost count.

 

Honestly, I think it's a fair point to make, especially if it is "continuous" as you stated. Even if you go with lower-priced dolls and items (or make your own) you are still looking at a couple hundred dollars' worth of investment. This hobby is expensive, and for those who are used to "instant gratification" this probably isn't the place. (And one thing I DO see a LOT of is the concept of "I want it, therefore I should be able to get it NOW!"...but that's entitlement and a whole different can of worms.)

For most, getting a doll takes time, effort saving and planning. Getting that doll "just right" may take longer and cost more. If the financial strain is causing so much grief, it is time to walk away, or at least put plans on hold.

Constantly bemoaning prices isn't going to make companies lower them, so what's the point? I guess I'm too much of a "deal with it or walk away" person to see the point of whining. No one is making anyone else push that "buy" button.

Edit: Plus, there are so many ways to enjoy this hobby without having to own a doll. I love looking at photographs, both of dolls and of crafty-type works that people have made for them. It's so amazing to be able to see what everyone else does with their dolls.

 

I think that entirely depends on the context and attitude in which that suggestion is given. If someone is just constantly complaining about prices, then it may be a fair thing to point out. It is an expensive hobby, and if you want to participate, then you do have to come to terms with that. It's not so much that you have to have oodles of disposable income -- being patient and saving is always an option (and/or waiting for a sale, buying basic kits when they come available, looking for good deals second hand etc etc etc). However, sometimes it's less about having or getting the money, and more about being uncomfortable spending that amount. Some of the honest to god whining that pops up complete with accusations of everything from clothes to dolls being overpriced gets pretty old pretty fast. It's one thing to commiserate with others about wishing one had more funds, but really griping about the expense involved is a completely different thing. If a person can't get over the sticker shock, then they're going to have trouble with the hobby.

However, I can see where someone could sling that 'find another hobby' comment in a way that is pretty nasty as well. But if someone is just being nasty, it'll probably be pretty evident.

 

That's a very fair point. I'm not sure where the line is myself, but I suppose it comes down to word choice and attitude. To me there's a difference between, for example, telling someone that, "Hey, that mod's pretty difficult, actually. You need this, this, and this, and you're probably going to need to try it out on a practice head first. In my opinion, it'd be easier and cheaper to send it off to someone experienced, so that's something to consider." and comments along the lines of, "People who don't understand sculpting shouldn't attempt mods. I hate seeing unskilled mods."

If they're expressing disgust at prices or other business practices in the hobby, then I also think it's fair to defend the hobby by pointing out some of the reasons things are the way they are.

 

It is a fair point to make. Many assumptions are made based on collections. I can't count the number of times I've been classified as 'rich' for my choices, when I'm... really not. Not even hardly. 'Rich' isn't an insult, but it comes with certain assumptions that are not always so positive; all language comes with baggage attached. When people are more careful about the language they use, it can help avoid some misunderstandings, but when it comes right down to it, there are people with a dedicated victim mentality that will deliberately misconstrue just about anything to further their victimhood. Telling someone like that anything is going to come off badly, even when it's a simple truth like the above, because they aren't interested in reality -- they're just interested in their little 'woe is me' histrionics. I didn't get into collecting sportscars, for instance, and it isn't because I don't like them plenty fine.

I suspect people are accustomed to thinking that wanting something is its own form of payment rendered. "If I want it badly enough, it will be mine." That is only true when wanting it badly enough takes the form of something other than simply sitting there on one's duff wanting -- it needs to spur on other action that will ultimately achieve the desired goal. I can want a sportscar until I am blue in the face, but if I never save for one, I am never going to have one. If I never have a job that would be able to support one, it is unlikely I'm ever going to have one -- and so on. If my wanting something isn't enough to spur the actions that would allow for the 'getting' part to happen, who am I to tell someone who has it that they don't deserve to have it because I think I 'want' it more? Well, sure, maybe I do want it more -- especially if all I ever did was sit around wanting and not go about the business of getting. It still wouldn't give me the right to trash people who did, or stick my fingers in my ears and deny the simple truth that sitting on my rump pining is going to accomplish precious little.

 

If you look hard enough, you'll find elitism anywhere. (I've seen several variants, and I'm relatively new to this hobby.)
I'm from a few other communities were there are plenty of "elitists" or "trolls".
And I would say, in those communities I do partake in a fare amount of trolling. Tbh, any sort of elitism in a hobby such as BJD's (or vidya games, and such) doesn't bother me at all. (If things people say via the web bother you to the point it makes you question your beliefs, I suggest you grow a thicker skin, or turn off your computer.)*not directed to anyone specific

As for trolling, the only way to really know whether or not the person is just being an elitist or troll, is to get in their head.
I've said things on other forums that I knew other people would disagree with wildly just to get some kicks and an argument, even though I fully disagreed with the stance I took.
But of course, someone might write some elitist garbage and actually believe it. ^^;

 

... And I STILL blame Fox News for this trend. Oh you narsty elitists who all think you're better'n me, you're all against me & my beliefs & my way of life. You're all out to kill my granny and insult my brand of dolly. Help help, I'm being repressed.

Also thank you for pointing out that there is no such thing as "reverse" elitism/racism/etc. It's all the same -ism no matter which direction it's coming from.

 

surreal's excellent post is a difficult act to follow, but I'll add my two cents, anyway. I suddenly had the opportunity to pick up the two dolls I wanted most - one through Angelsdoll's screamin' sales event, the other through the marketplace - at a time of year when Mr. polyhymnia and I traditionally have nothing in the way of spending loot (post-Christmas, pre- income and property taxes). There were a few things I could have done:

1. Been dishonest with my husband and gone into debt to get the dolls (thus breaking two cardinal rules of our relationship - never gonna happen).
2. Touched my mother for a loan (at my age? for a doll? again, never gonna happen).
3. Whinged incessantly and felt very sorry for myself (more potential there for actually happening, but neither helpful nor fun as far as gaining my dolls).
4. Figured out an honest way to raise the loot (bingo!).

So I trolled through my extremely cluttered house, picking out good things that no longer had meaning or value for me, and put them up on eBay. I didn't have much faith that I would succeed, but I did; both dolls are paid for, and my house is a bit less cluttered.

So trust, it can be done. Be resourceful, and it can be done. And don't assume that the ones with the dolls had them dropped in their laps, because I'll bet they didn't.

(I think that's where I was heading with this story ...)

 

I haven't met an elitist. It's strange - on the forums I see threads about elitists, but I haven't seen elitists yet. I think if we didn't focus on them, they'd go away, since elitism can easily just be understood as love for a company. Questions with double meanings after all, could just be questions with a single meaning, and another one you tacked on because of your own insecurities.

Obviously, people who really have been mistreated by elitists really have run into The Real Deal, but I just want everyone to be careful we don't start witch hunting, you know?

 

This, a thousand times this. I can't possibly count how many times I've seen a discussion on limited dolls or something, and someone tells someone else that they must be rich to have those. No. They can be lucky, or loved, or have saved for ten years and sold all of their other worldly possessions. Rich always seems to be typed with the unspoken 'It should've been me.'

 

I've seen a few comments here and there that might be construed as elitist. Most of the time, I find actions to speak more clearly than words (spoken or written) and makes me wonder if I'm right or if I'm just being paranoid.

Honestly though, the BJD community is tamer than Star Trek fandom.

 

^In that scenario, no, it's not. Plus, you said it in a polite way. You're just giving them a heads up of what is to come. It gets annoying to have someone constantly bemoaning something everyone in this hobby has known, but gotten over. And I can understand getting upset about that.

(you = general sense)

But I have seen someone say "You should not be in this hobby" because of what I consider 'strange' reasons, such as keeping a doll in a sock dress for a long time, not really caring about wigs, or yellowing, or not wanting to spend so much (though not griping about the price, but wanting a less expensive doll, instead of another, more expensive doll).

Granted, these times have been rare, and even I've said that quote before in regards to respecting others, but being in this hobby has taught me that there is more than one way to care for a BJD.

And truthfully, I don't care if you care so much about yellowing, or that you want to brush your dolls wigs all the time, or that your doll's being kept in a sock dress. These are things that we may not see eye-to-eye on, but there is more than one way to skin a cat. I'm fine with whatever you want to do because I can't stop you. I don't have to look at it if I don't like it, and I don't.

Even if you decide to run over your doll with your car, and call it art - I'll be upset, truth be told, but I can't take your doll-ownership privileges away, because the doll isn't a kid or your pet, and there's no law against running over your doll with your car.

So, to sum up, advising a person trying to make the decision whether to get a doll because of price is acceptable. But what I don't find acceptable is saying to someone that they shouldn't be in the hobby for what I feel are silly reasons.

 

I've had a couple of funny experiences that sort of touched on this issue -- mostly backhanded compliments on my dolls along the lines of "OMG, THAT'S a "Cheap Brand X" doll? But, it looks good!" I don't mind stuff like that, I think it's just an expression of surprise on their part that certain dolls that are often maligned as being horrible can, indeed, be pretty with some work.

 

I'm of the opinion that almost any doll can look good if someone puts the effort into it, but that doesn't happen often. Dolls from cheaper companies tend to be the target of newbie mods and newbie faceups because people don't want to take the chance of ruining something expensive. Also when people look at dolls that have the crayon faceups or ragged sock dresses they're more likely to be from a "cheap" company as well. It all reinforces the viewpoint that cheap dolls can't be made to look nice or that it would take a huge investment to fix them up properly.

That's why you get the compliments. To some, you've polished a piece of gravel into a gemstone, an impressive achievement.

 

Yeah, but that's not elitist either-- you get that same reaction with expensive or medium-priced dolls too. If the viewer doesn't normally like that sculpt/company/style, regardless of its price, the reaction will ALWAYS be "Wow, I normally hate those, but this one looks good!" It's an honest reaction.

Talking of much-maligned brands, in fact, I can't tell you how many of these exact clumsily-surprised reactions you get towards Volks dolls. I get em all the time. Any Volks doll. There is this huge population of people who have never seen a Volks doll, but just assume that they don't like Volks... because all their friends have warned them not to. So when they meet one, it surprises them that they like it. Et voila, the clumsy surprise.

If you honestly take every single clumsily-surprised-reaction-that-means-well as some kind of elitist insult, you're just going to find hurt everywhere you look for it. Which some people do seem to enjoy. Please, don't get me started on injury-mongers. I am so sick of the Sad Violin Music that accompanies so many of the posts on this forum.

 

You'll note I said "touched on" not "immersed in". I can understand your reaction if I'd said "OMG it was the MEANEST THING EVAR". I was simply relaying something I thought was funny, and connected (albeit a bit tangentially) to this general genre of conversation. No violin music here, sorry!

 

I guess I see a lot more snarky and general bee-atch-yness happening than elitism honestly. People simply being rude or impolite and calling it "un-sugarcoated opinion". There is a big difference between being a jerk and being honest. I think people need to just focus on manners and being polite and bet you'll see this whole omg elitism thing die down.

 

See, there we are! Notice that I didn't even say that your post was one of them.

 

Yes, now that you mention it. Now, where did I put my Stuff Smith records?