Elitism - How much is perceived?

Cirquemom- You are the total opposite of elitist! You're the one the encouraged me to get Amir (AoD Chen) when others kept telling me to "spend a little more and get something better".....and now it's been 4.5 years and over 40 dolls later (including some more, "higher end" ones), and Amir is STILL my favorite doll. I'm SO glad you told me to go with my heart (and showed me pix of YOUR Chen), or I might have lost interest in the hobby before I even started.



But as far as preferences and elitism, preferring one company doesn't make you an elitist in itself. BlueBloodDoll is my favorite company, I want to own everything Medusa puts out and just can't praise BBD enough! But that doesn't mean I hate everything that isn't BBD (I think my own collection proves that!)

 

Same! I'd heard one or two people's comments about 'Volks elitists' in connection with DoA, and if my friend hadn't convinced me to join, I probably never would have!

 

As a member of three other BJD forums, and often in the BJD area of tumblr and deviantart.... The only elitism I have seen is on this forum and some of the BJD confessions on tumblr. Thats pretty much it.

Though, I think a lot of people mistake opinions for elitism. I mean, I am trying to only let my self get iplehouse dolls. Why? Because I like their dolls and for me, sticking to one brand is the only way to keep me from going "I WANT WANT WANT WANT". Now, does that mean I am going to hate on other companies because I stick to one? No. I love a lot of other companies. And have two dolls from other companies. And I would like to get dolls from other companies but because I made a limit on my self. I won't.

I often see people being snobs about BBB. And because of that I feel that Bobobie has this stupid stigma about it. that "Oh, their dolls are not that great." I believe this came from
1. Personal opinion and
2. elitism.
I find that most elitist look down on "cheaper" dolls. But really, as some one who has a BBB they can be really pretty.

But I have also seen it from owners who own cheaper dolls. Like they are trying to mentally prepare from some one saying something to them.

I have also seen people say "If you think dals and pullips are not BJDs then your an elitist." I think thats a bit harsh. I like thoughs off topic dolls as well. But they are still off topic.

 

I feel the same way about RS/BBB dolls. I do feel that their quality is sometimes less than Volks, Iplehouse, Elfdoll, etc., but I find something so endearing and charming about them. But I do know that attitude exists, and sometimes going to a meet-up I will think...should I take one of my more expensive dolls? But the fact is, I am most attached to my Resin Soul dolls, I photograph them the most (as well as my large Obitsus), so it seems like it would be dishonest of me to take a more expensive doll just to try to fit in better. The worst that has happened is that the dolls have been ignored- but no one has ever made fun of or sneered at them.

As far as dals and pullips go- I think they are charming too and a lot of people who have BJDs also have those, plus action-figures, etc. DoA already has so many allowed dolls- I think they just have to draw the line somewhere or the site would become unmanageable. And there are plenty of other, smaller and more intimate sites that do allow different types of dolls.

 

Why, I think my dolls are the best dolls in the whole wide world ! Of course I feel that way; why else would I spend so much time and money on them? It's not the brand or the cost that makes them great, it's the way they look and the way they make me feel when I'm interacting with them! If that makes me an elitist, so be it.

I'm not saying I think your (general you) dolls are somehow inferior. Heck, your dolls are great too! Why else would you have them? As long as you're getting the maximum enjoyment out of your doll, then to you, that doll is the best in the world! And isn't that really all that matters?

I don't collect dolls in order to win any popularity contests or be "cool" (perish the thought), I do it for me, because I enjoy it. And I don't give a flying fart if someone on the interwebs thinks my dolls are inferior or if they think I'm some snobby elitist. I enjoy dolls from all across the price spectrum, from all companies, and all different kinds of sculpts. I prefer more stylized dolls in my collection, but I still drool over smexy realistic boys and girls . I think every doll is awesome! And I think just about every doll collector is awesome too!

Maybe I live in a happy little bubble, but I've yet to meet a doll collector that was a jerk or a snob. Crazy? You bet (and crazy is way more interesting than normal; I myself am nuttier than squirrel poo)! Snobby? Not so much.

Things that get said online can often be misinterpreted, and I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. So even if someone comes across a little huffy, I like to think that they're not being a jerkface on purpose. I'm sure there are weirdos out there that do have some kind of dolly superiority complex, but I think they're few and far between. I'm so tired of the "elitist" thing going around. They're dolls, and sometimes we need to remember to just relax and go play with them.

 

Oh trust me... "a lot" may even be putting it lightly. I too see a lot of cries of elitism on various Tumblr communities, and in at least 90 percent of them, the term "elitist" does not even come close to being used correctly. One person even claimed that people might find them elitist for liking photos of another owner's particular doll.

And the more I see these cries of elitism, the further the words usage gets from the actual meaning of the word! And I have a feeling that a lot of it is newbs who come in, are exposed to this butthurt over perceived elitism, and then make mistaken assumptions...

 

Pretty much this, I could not have worded it better. I have also seen the same thing happen in the lolita community.


But your going to find elitism in every hobby. Cars, dolls, clothes, heck... Even the Tarantula owning hobby. (I found that out the hard way)

 

I have not been on this forum long, but I can say I haven't seen much elitism. However, I have seen a couple of examples of subtle elitism that I think gets overlooked sometimes, such as a line implying that if you buy a cheaper doll over a more expensive doll that you wanted a little more, then you are cheating yourself, or you don't have enough drive to save up (because there couldn't possibly be ANY other reason.) People who complain about other people calling the hobby expensive come off as a little elitist to me. Refusing to comment on a gallery post because the work isn't "superior" is kind of elitist. (You can't offer a bit of encouraging advice, or find something nice to say?) I think it can be easy to come off a little elitist without meaning to, which doesn't make anyone a bad person necessarily, just perhaps a bit unaware of the effect of their words.

 

O_O Wow. Even the Tarantulas. That's kind of sad... But this is quite true. There are always going to be those people in a hobby that think what they do puts them on a higher tier than others... There is a difference in feeling pride for yourself over your dolls and how nice you have made them to look and thinking you are somehow superior to others who don't do the same as you...

Okay Kyandesu. I have a few problems with your "subtle elitism":

I happen to be one of those people that believes that you are cheating yourself if you settle for a cheaper doll rather than buying the one you know you love. It seems that if one is able to get the funds for a cheap(er) doll, they can wait a bit longer to get the one they liked in the first place. This is a luxury hobby, and you don't *have* to have a doll. I have spent the past three years involved in this community, and all I have to my name is a second hand head.

I have a part time job, and I am in the process of going back to school, yet I was able to scrounge and save what I had left over from paying bills to buy one of the dolls I wanted (he's being discontinued, so it was a little on impulse <_<).

No one needs a doll right now, so why take a gamble on a cheaper doll that you may not like when you can wait longer and get the one you want. Regardless of how "cheap" the doll may be, it's still an expensive gamble to take to me.

I could see how elitism could be involved in this example, but it's a bit rude of you to assume people are elitists for giving what they think is helpful advice to someone just starting out in the hobby. Nevermind that many who say give this advice often couple it with "do what makes you happy. Who knows, you may find that you love this other doll just as much if not more!"

How so? This is an expensive hobby. Complaining about it would be like me complaining about my writing hobby requiring me to sit and type. There is nothing wrong with being annoyed when someone complains about something that is painfully obvious the moment one even looks into this hobby, and if one complains too much, you wonder why they are in the hobby in the first place.

Annoyance and elitism are not the same. Just because one is annoyed with this does not mean they think they are better than others. It just means they are annoyed.

I guess people over at Fanfiction . net are elitist too when they don't read my slash fiction, or when they read, but don't comment.

If a person does not comment, it means they may not have anything to say at all, not necessarily that they don't have something nice to say. Not leaving comments on work that isn't as good as some supposed "masterpiece" a couple threads down does not at all imply elitism.

Some are not good at giving advice or constructive criticism, and just giving someone a pat on the back for work that could improve is only hurting the creator of that work. Not to mention (and I see it in DA communities and Fanfiction communities) some people do not take concrit as they should; they see it as an attack, and when someone says they could improve on something, they get defensive and pitch fits. I'm not saying it happens here (I haven't seen it), but when you are involved in hobbies when you see it often, you tend to be turned off of giving advice...

 

Yeah, its a bit off topic here but because of my age and the spiders I have I had people tell me that I don't belong in the hobby and all that jazz. Mostly because I had "cheaper" tarantulas and not a fully $500 P.metalica female. But according to them, I shouldn't have one because I am "16" but thats a different story for a different time and place.

Though, I never got it in any other hobby. But I have seen it.

 

Age seems to factor into this sort of thing so often. As if age alone can decide whether or not someone can "properly" enjoy a hobby. And it's always the teenagers that get so much flack... as if a teen cannot have passion for something.

 

I don't know that I would call it elitism... but, I know what Kyandesu is getting at. Speaking (very) cynically of our broader hobby-culture -

The "buy what you love, regardless of price" mantra, while very well intentioned and meant to encourage new owners to take a leap of faith, is repeated so often that it is beginning to feel like dogma. To a new hobbyist, it could imply that any compromise on your doll purchases is somehow wrong (e.g. you're cheating yourself if you purchase the less expensive doll), even though it may be what that hobbyist needs to do.

The idea of cheating yourself also seems to make the assumption that the doll owner who must compromise is purchasing a doll that they don't and can't possibly like at all; that they won't find a less expensive doll that they do like; and that only expensive dolls are any good. Which, in turn, could contribute to noobs to buying dolls outside their means or purchasing recasts/bootlegs so that they can be part of the perceived hobby "Elite."

What works for one person (saving pennies forever to put together that perfect doll) isn't going to work for everybody and there are a lot of factors to weigh in when making a purchase for this luxury hobby. I wouldn't doubt that some newcomers would loose interest if they were only able to look and not touch, while they waited and saved for that more expensive doll. As long as a person buys a doll that they like, even if it isn't the expensive one they were lusting after, I wouldn't say that they have cheated themselves of anything.

 

Unless they buy this cheaper doll and end up not liking it. You wouldn't call that being cheated out of something? To me it's a gamble that just... isn't worth taking, unless this person has found that they truly like this cheaper doll. Of course it is not some impossible thing that someone can find a cheaper doll that they love. If they do, then they should totally buy it~ Buy what you love. If you love an expensive doll, but find a cheaper doll you love too, then put the expensive doll on the back burner.

Even though it's a gamble I'm not going to take, and I don't think it's worth taking, I'm not about to assume an owner of a cheaper doll settled for a cheap doll, nor am I going to think I am somehow a better hobbyist than this person. All we all have in common is a love for BJDs and for this hobby, and with the number of ways this hobby can be enjoyed, no one can honestly be a "better hobbyist" or a part of some "elite" than another.

 

Cheated? No. Gamble? Yes, but it applies to pretty much anything you could possibly buy. And I agree, everyone must make their own decisions about what gambles are worth taking. I have only felt cheated if the doll came with obvious, undisclosed defects, or if I had purchased a doll only to find that the company's quality had suddenly dropped dramatically.

My first 2 BJD were from Dream of Doll - who by all accounts is a good company with good dolls. I still didn't like them as much as I hoped, so I sold them and moved on. I don't feel like I was cheated out of anything. The dolls themselves were good, they just didn't fit what I wanted.

I purchased a Soom tiny body, which is supposedly good quality, only to find that the arms had deep air pockets inside the stringing channels - not visible from the outside, but deep enough that you could see light through them. With that doll, I did feel cheated.

I also don't believe that anyone in the hobby actually believes what I described, but rather that it might be how we, as a group, could look to someone who is new and less knowledgeable about the hobby.

 

This!! As long as YOU love your doll, who cares what anybody else thinks. As I've said before, I have a wide range of doll companies and prices, but I also have my "cheap" AoD. AND HE'S MY FAVORITE!!! :P

I think this can be true, but not always. If the person directly says that is their reason for not commenting, well, yeah, that IS kind of elitist. But everybody can't comment on every gallery thread and of course people are more likely to comment on the ones they like. "If you can't say something nice....." As far as advice, I believe it is against DoA rules to critique in galleries. If you would like advice on getting better, the post should be in critiques and there are many helpful people commenting in there.

I am too. If you find a doll that is "cheap" that you love, by all means, go for it! Less expensive does not automatically equal bad. I don't think these people say it as "your doll is cheap, so you suck at the hobby", I think it's more like "Don't waste that $200 on a substitute you may not like when it could be a downpayment on what you really want." And it goes the other way too. Don't spend extra money on the "expensive/popular" doll if you are totally in love with the "cheap" doll. If I had gotten either a cheaper doll OR the more popular doll when I first got Amir, I would have regretted it and likely quit the hobby. I think this advice really just means "get what you love and don't settle for less", whether "less" means cheaper substitute or less interest in a "higher end" doll you get due to peer pressure.

Well, the $20 male Rosehaired tarantula I had when I was 12 was the BEST spider ever. He knew when I was sad and would crawl to the closest corner of his cage and put his foot on the wall, reaching out. So take that, spider elitists! :P

 

^This all the way. Pretty much what I wanted to say, except I'm braindead and suck at conveying things

 

I agree in theory, but I don't always think it works in practice.

Substitute/Alternative choice doesn't necessarily mean "settling for less." It could just as well mean equal-but-different. (And it bugs me a little that no one ever seems to say that.) I wouldn't expect someone to wait around, doll-less, because a doll they're lusting after is too expensive for them right now or it's a discontinued sculpt that just never shows up in the MP. (Like one of those Featherfall-exclusive RS/BBB dolls - not expensive, but, for the sake of argument, do they pop up in the MP very often?)

There's always a chance, too, that even your grail doll isn't going to be all you expect it to be (I've heard more than a few stories). Any purchase is a gamble.

 

Regarding my first point, there are so many reasons that you might resist buying a more expensive doll. Maybe you have loans to pay off, maybe you have kids you need to support, maybe, like me, your life is too financially uncertain to be able to hold onto a huge amount of money at one time. There are plenty of really expensive dolls I like, and maybe even lust after a little more than the doll I'm deciding to get. Still, I really like the doll that I'm choosing to get, and I think I'll love her. I think buying a cheaper doll, and satisfying that urge to be involved in the hobby instead of just hovering on the sidelines for years makes sense. Similarly, I just can't justify spending too much money on something like this. I just think there are a lot of reasons that might prevent you from buying a more expensive doll, and that you aren't necessarily cheating yourself. Yes, you should certainly buy a doll you love and not just impulse buy it because it's cheap. But assuming that a person doesn't have enough drive to save seems unfair to me. I'm not saying the advice "save up for the doll you really love" is elitist; I'm saying telling someone that unless they buy the more expensive doll then they don't have "the drive" is elitist.

Regarding the second point, for some people this hobby can be more expensive than to others. They might have to settle for a cheaper doll, cheaper clothes, etc. It can be disheartening to see all these amazing things that other people can afford, and yet they can't ever really have access to. This ties in with the whole "just save up then" assumption that I assert is unfair. Some people just can't. In the same way that some people can't afford a really high-end computer, or car, or art supplies, or whatever, but they still have a passion for those things. Surely, they can be allowed the occasional complaint or lament over the expense?

For my last point, I should have been more specific. I was actually referring to comments that I've read along the lines of "I only comment on superior work" as if the people in the learning stages aren't worth their time. I look at a lot of gallery threads and generally don't comment at all, but I think specifically having a policy of only commenting on the best of the best, and scorning those who are still trying or maybe are a little clueless seems elitist.

I'm not confusing annoyance and elitism.

Exactly, it's just that there are so many factors behind the choice you make for a doll. Some people simply can't afford the super expensive ones, no matter how much they love them. Saving for that long could take a person years, and hopefully nothing goes wrong in the meantime. What if you had one doll you really liked, but it was super expensive. There's another doll that's less expensive, that you still really like just not quite as much. But you decide to save for the more expensive one. Then something bad happens (car crash?) and you lose all the money you saved up for. Back to square one and still doll-less. What if you had just bought the less expensive one that you still liked, and then this terrible thing happened you'd still have the money, and you'd still have a doll that you liked. Any purchase of a doll is gamble unless you see it in person and hold it and get to know it. Some people may buy a cheaper doll just to make sure they're really into the hobby, before they invest a thousand dollars. I'm just saying that assuming their reasons for buying a cheaper doll over a more expensive one and questioning their motivations and determinism is elitist, in my opinion.

Of course, it's just my opinion, and I really do see the helpful intention behind the advice. It's good advice, but the assumptions are the bad part. (Obviously not everyone makes these assumptions.)

 

(Quoting myself, but whatever.)

Kyandesu: No. Not exactly. While I agree that what you and I are talking about exists as a subtext of the hobby, I find it a bit of a stretch to call it "elitism." When I think of elitism in the negative connotation, I think of someone whose mindset leads them to deliberately act or think in a negative fashion towards the thing they perceive as inferior or, in the reverse case, negatively towards people they assume will judge them, whether or not that is true.

The subtext that you and I are talking about is, in my opinion, unintentional implication by omission. I rarely see hobbyists talk about alternative choices for a doll (unless it's a thread where someone is specifically looking for options) and we seem to focus on the idea that "That Doll," no matter what price range you're shopping in (thanks, CloakedSchemer!), is the only one that's good enough. It can imply exclusion of other options and that "buying what you love" is so important that we should never have to compromise. (Which isn't a completely bad thing... only when taken to an extreme.)

I think the mindset that needs some tweaking, is really the idea that second choice means you're settling for something less than what you wanted. "Buy what you love" should more openly include the caveat that "different-but-equal" is OK, too. We spend hundreds of dollars on these dolls, so I would never expect someone to purchase a doll they aren't head over heels for, but there are so many options now a days. So even if you can't get "that doll" you can still get "a doll" that you love.

 

I have to agree that it should be called snobbery.