Elitism - How much is perceived?

That's why I said subtle elitism. I'm not accusing anyone of intentionally setting out to separate what they see as good from bad, and then criticize people for doing the "bad" thing. But it's still elitism if the messages are received and make the person feel excluded or doubt their own choices. It's just like how racism isn't always outright and blunt, usually it's a subtle thing that exists on a societal level that manifests in small, every day things. When someone says "never compromise on the number one doll on your list, if you can't save up for that then you don't have the motivation" then you feel bad or like a lesser hobbyist because maybe you just can't save up THAT much money. I'm not saying anyone does it on purpose, but I think it's still there, and it's still a subconscious version of elitism.

 

If you ask me what color the sky is and I say "It's not red", it is no fault of mine that you take that to mean that it's green. I think there's a dangerous modern trend toward trying so hard not to step on anyone else's toes that we water down our own opinions.

My feeling is that people should enjoy what they like and give their honest recommendations! When you try to shame people into only giving feel-good answers that suggest more easily attainable solutions, you're losing a wealth of opinions and information that is based in fact. If someone is so tender-hearted that they don't want "elitist" answers, they should either ask the questions in ways that will guarantee that people only give answers that affirm their choice or not ask at all.

No one needs to like or support anyone else's choices, and no one should have to pretend not to enjoy her own choices because simple preference might be seen as offensive by someone who's looking for a reason to indulge her low self-esteem. [[And liking a particular doll really is not comparable to racism; one is judgment of an object based on personal preference (which isn't much different than liking Coke over Pepsi), the other is judging a living, breathing person or group of people based on prejudice... there is no hardship to the doll if I don't like it.]]

 

I think that's a pretty good way to describe it.

Kyandesu: I think our definitions of "subtle elitism" may differ. When I hear that... I think of a person who is actually an elitist (or some other -ism), and whatever thing they think is inferior, is inferior, no matter if there's evidence to the contrary. That person may not actually go around bashing or shouting down whatever that thing is, but when interacting with them (face to face would probably be more obvious than online), you still can tell by other cues that they think the thing is inferior.

What I believe is that an elitist has a mindset - that's just how they think, whether or not they are obvious about their opinion. Such a thing would be VERY difficult to judge, however, because we can't fully understand another person's motivations for how they act. As Idrisfynn pointed out, the "you suck" interpretation is from the reader.

 

I like this. I agree with this.

XD I know right! I have a female Rose Hair!

 

If someone wants to see elitism, they will see it in any answer/statement/opinion. If we take the hypothetical question being discussed - "Should I save up for my dream doll or buy a cheaper doll quicker?" - there is no answer to this question that cannot be rationalized to be elitist. Heck, even the seemingly innocuous and neutral "it's really up to you to decide" can be misconstrued to mean that people are too elitist and stuck up to help out a newbie. I suppose the only "right" answer is no answer at all, but then, the person will feel ignored and not welcomed. No win situation, really.

Or maybe, just maybe, most people simply want to play with their toys, and over the course of such play have formed personal preferences and opinions on various sculpts, companies and other hobby-related things. I don't see how it is wrong to have personal preferences, as long as you are a decent human being who knows basic etiquette. Are there jerks around? Sure, but they will be jerks everywhere, not just when they participate in this hobby. For the most part, folks just want to enjoy their toys.

 

^This is so true. Even denying that you are an elitist to someone who is convinced you are is just a waste of time. Once someone has made up his/her mind, it's hard to get him/her to think otherwise.

 

I've seen some strange perceptions of DoA on other forums, usually from non-members. It's a hotbed of elitism, they only let you join if you're a cool kid, you'll get smacked down if you own the wrong doll, etc. Needless to say, I've never encountered any of that here. I wonder where it all comes from?

 

Because some DoA members go to places like Den of Demons or "ugly doll" and confession Tumblrs and blogs, where people are allowed to be drama-llamas and spout vitriol. And a lot of those places are easier to access than here, so the negativity spreads around faster.

 

What you're talking about is Perceived Elitism, and you have just helped answer the title of this very thread....

Such people hear what they want to hear, regardless of what was actually said. Because they like to feel persecuted, because they want to have something to complain about, because all their friends on Tumblr/etc. have imaginary-elitist complaints too and they want to play along. It's like psychic scab-picking. Therefore, they will attach an invented subtext-- something tailored to their own insecurities-- onto every innocent statement. Someone who reads only the sentence "Save up for the doll you really truly love", and then mentally adds "because cheap dolls all suck" or "otherwise GTFO of the hobby", really IS making it all up. That's just how it works.

Armeleia said it better: "If you ask me what color the sky is and I say 'It's not red', it is no fault of mine that you take that to mean that it's green." What we have here is a lot of people thinking the sky is green because they invented messages that weren't there.

Wait-- you mean you DON'T comment on every single thread in the Gallery??! Elitism!!1!~!!!

The two questions I have are:
(1) When a gallery thread doesn't get a comment from 9,993 out of 10,000 people, how on earth do you know the reason why every single one of those 9,993 people failed to comment? Do you honestly think they're ALL elitists? For that matter, do you honestly assume all of them even saw the thread in the first place?
And,
(2) If you're talking about people who say "I only comment on superior work"-- how do you know so much about their "policy", and where did you actually see that, if the person DIDN'T leave a comment?

 

Sorry. >,< I wasn't trying to imply that anyone/everybody who goes on other sites was a trouble maker... only that other sites can offer easier and more plentiful platforms for the people who have something negative to say and that people will find a way to say what they want.

In fact... I think a majority don't go with the intention of starting anything - people who post/vent on confession blogs for example - but, if you stack up all the negative comments, I could see where people could potentially get the wrong idea that a large portion of hobbyists are cranky, cheap-doll-hating, elitists. (using the sky metaphor again... if someone doesn't know what color the sky is, and they go on 10 legit-looking blogs that say it's red, there's a good chance they'll believe it's red, but they didn't check Wikipedia, so they don't have any evidence that it's actually red.)

I think... if my first experience with people in the hobby had been an ugly doll or confession blog instead of DoA, I would have been much less enthusiastic about joining the hobby.

 

Wow, there is definitely some heated discussion on this topic. My humble opinion is... everyone is entitled to their opinion. BUT if it is rude, derogatory or hurtful towards someones feelings... its probably better of UN-SAID in this forum. At least I feel that this forum is a place where we are encouraged to sharing respectfully. Leave the hurtful comments to the RANTS & RAVES section on Craigslist.

 

Actually, the first time I ever heard about DoA WAS a negative comment on another site. SO often on that site, I'd see statements like "You'll find a lot of info on ___________ on DoA, but be prepared for the elitists." or "post the question, but don't say that it's for a Bobobie/ResinSoul/AoD/Obitsu/Dollzone." I was interested in the hobby for over 3 years before I joined here because I was afraid of all these people here that were going to hate me for not owning a Volks or other $1000 doll. But finally, when I heard that DoA had a decent MP and the doll I wanted was no longer available, I decided to suck it up long enough to join to find that doll.

Finding out I needed 40 posts and 25 days freaked me out, since I was scared to voice opinions in discussion or post pix of my dolls, but I decided to tough it out. And now, I'm really glad DoA DOES have that rule because it forced me out of my comfort zone and in the process of doing so made me realize that most people here are actually pretty nice!

While I was "tough" enough to "deal with the snobs" (that 3 years later, I STILL have not directly dealt with at all), it does make me wonder how many other people would really like to join but miss out due to fear from negative comments elsewhere. Not everyone is a "risk taker" and willing to face their fears to see what things are really like. It's sad that some great people may be missing out due to perceived elitism.

 

It seems a lot of negativity towards DoA in general and accusations of elitism specifically come from people who have never been on DoA, because they fear potential persecution for whatever imaginary shortcomings they assign to themselves. They fear their dolls won't be appreciated, they fear they won't make friends, they fear they won't belong.

I think it's helpful to remind yourself that fear is the mind killer (c). I also understand this famous line as this: fear makes one stupid, and the one who is stupid is easily manipulated by ill-meaning strangers, who lurk in the dark recesses of any hobby. This forum allows for a degree of transparency like few other places, protecting the members from abuse, emotional and financial. This is truly one of the safest places in the hobby world, and anyone who had actually been a member here would know that.

 

I'd have to agree there is definitely a lot of anti-DOA negativity to be found out out there nowdays and I do wonder how many are driven away from the forum because of it. As of yet, I am yet personally to see anyone here on this forum making comments like "Your doll is ugly / Cheap / nasty...get out" as, for one thing it would be against forum rules to do so and if anyone did they'd be outta here pretty quick; and for another thing, for those of us who do stay here we are (for the most part) the type who love this place for the safe, usually happy, informative place that it is for all abjd lovers and would like to keep it as much.
Sure, by having such a large forum community you are going to have a wide variety of individuals with various personal and aesthetic preferences; creative skill levels and creative skill types; budgets etc which will sway their choices and particular enjoyment of the hobby and, hence, this will mean that often times personal ideals about the hobby are going to clash which can lead to much of the perceived elitism. However, in the end any type of growth in life comes from accepting your choices and preferences and not listening to anyone else who thinks you are wrong. Simple as that =^-^=

 

I think most elitism is perceived, especially by non-members. They probably see us all in a walled garden or gated community since most of the site is member's only, I noticed a lot of people on tumblr think that. I find that ironic since the tumblr BJD community seems to have more elitism and way more drama than here. I mean they have like three bjd confession communities, and the culture there allows people to dogpile on someone who might have actually made an honest mistake. Do you really 3 blogs dedicated to how much you hate _____and that they're so _____ and their dolls are ____ I mean really? I don't think most of us care what someone really things of whoever. People see that sort of behavior on say tumblr or LJ and they assume it has to be so much worse inside the site. To me it seems that the elitism isn't here per say, but it comes from other sites where things are more lax. So it's sort of more of a perception rather than there being elitism, at least on DoA, other sites...well yeah it's out in the open.

 

I think this is the worse hobby I am in for elitism, and to be fair I think it is pretty bad. It worries me when people comment on about how the Lolita hobby is apparently worse! I also think some people shout "elitism" too easily in the hobby too and the person they scream at isn't elitist they just have a different opinion. So it is a bit weird. And in response to the first post I think Encyclopedia Dramatica should be taken with a pinch of salt, it is after all mostly written by trolls. Some of the stories are true (but not all and some only has small grains of truth), but again this is the worse of the worse and not something people are likely going to come across.

I certainly don't think it is an accurate representation of the hobby at all. In fact when I read it I had a good giggle because it was that ludicrous. I then proceeded to see what it said about my other hobbies to have a good laugh. I also think one reason the drama and the elitism on Tumblr is worse is because it is not moderated like this site is. When I have had people be pretty nasty to me on here it has been dealt with (which I have been pretty grateful for to be honest). On Tumblr there is nothing like that so it is all out in the open.

Also being anon brings out the worse in people. On here you get one account and one account only, so you are you. What you say and do you are accountable for and people know this so are far more likely to be on best behaviour. On tumblr you can have as many blogs as you want, you can have them linked by the same E-mail if you wish so you don't even have to log in and out to switch between them. Or you can have them as completely different accounts. I have seen accounts just for responded to the confessions posted on there, which I doubt is their main account.

Plus it has a system where you can ask people things anonymously if they allow it, so you don't even need to bother with a new account to be horrible to people. I had to turn anon. asks off because I got some anon hate very quickly after joining. The confession blogs are done anonymously which is why they are so nasty. I think that is the main reason why there is more drama on Tumblr then on here. I think only a small number is non or Ex members who are bitter. Especially when a mod posted the numbers of people who had been banned from here, and it is actually a very small number of people compared to registered accounts.

I do admit I do see people on Tumblr who think DoA is this shiny exclusive club, and we want to keep it exclusive and not to let others in. Which if that statement was true, would be elitism. But from my understanding the invite only is to try and help keep the site safe from potential scammers and trolls, and there are still ways of getting on the site if you don't know any members. Which is not elitism and I think it is an example of people shouting the word too easily without understanding the situation.

 

I posted here many times.....the same point repeated. Doll collection is an elitist hobby. Collectors of other types of dolls (expensive or cheap) are also very elitist and exclusive. It takes one to recognize one.

 

Hmm.. I haven't actually had interacted with any elitists yet. I'm a newbie I guess, and I only intend to collect YOSD's as of right now.. You could say that I'm a bit elitist about that maybe.. I've never seen a face/body SO amazing I thought it was worth being broke over... except my fiance. ; ) I want to own every little 12 inch treasure with the amazing look, even if I cannot possibly do that. I admit to being very stupid with my dolls in the process of learning to be a good owner. Like.. stupid enough to spit on, and have my dolls taken from me, in my opinion. lol. There are some views though, such as 'no hybrids are valid dolls' that I find oppressive. I find things like that annoying, even if I've never been given trouble for it. That's mainly because people talk as if for example, hybrid owners don't exist and won't see the thread. I think talking openly about even socially unacceptable opinions, and understanding why we have them is important so we don't act like idiots about them.