Elitism - How much is perceived?

I agree with this. There are so many pics in the gallery that there just isn't time for most of us to view and comment on all of them. No one should take it personally if their particular pics don't get a ton of praise and comments. I think I have only posted in the gallery once and that was because I inadvertently took what I thought was a good pic. I am mostly a horrid photographer and tend to only post small quick pics of my dolls in discussion threads.

 

I like some companies and dislike others but I don't think anyone has the right to push their opinions on you.

 

This. This right here pretty much sums it all up. People need to chill.

 

Anbaachan said "I'm of the opinion that 99.99999% of "elitism" in this community is perceived. A poorly shot gallery post that only gets two comments is interpreted as, "No one likes my doll because it's Brand X." "I like Brand Y best" is interpreted as "I hate Brand Z." Perhaps people become so emotionally invested in their dolls that they forget how to use logic. I don't know. But I do know that people need to stop reading between the lines, and accept that not everyone's doll is to everyone's liking. As long as no one's a jerk about it, who cares? "

I wholly agree. Dolls are people's "precious babies" and they get waaaaay too insecure or sensitive about things.
Also, people today are waaaaay too entitled and rights-focused, that is, watching to make sure no one violates their supposed "rights" without any real knowledge of what a "right" is. Someone stating their own opnion is not "shoving their views down your throat." They have their opinion and they have as much "right" to state it as the hearer does to feel butthurt and whine and object. However, whining does tend to make you look , well, whiny. Pick your battles.

 

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Why am I not surprised 'Elitism' is such a topic in this hobby?

You see, I'm a cosplay and there is so much talk about some being 'Elite' or consider themselves 'Elite' that it made my eyebrow arch. Some stories were downright horrifying.
BUT As I got more and more curious it was always just 'this happened to a friend of mine' or 'I heard' and such... and then there were these people who starred at a person with a really awesome cosplay from afar and where like 'omg, look at her, that upstuck bi..., she thinks so high and mighty of herself and totally 'Elite'.' and the like. I - havin been in the hobby for a while and having JUST talked to her about an half hour ago couldn't help but ask 'Oh really? When did you talk to her? / What did she say/do to you?' and got an answer like 'We didn't, but one glance at her and you know it all, don't you?' and I was like 'Well, that's a shame really, cause she really is a dear and just patiently and nicely answered all my questions. You shouldn't bad-mouth someone you never even had the courage to approach and talk to.'

What am I trying to say with this story?
Simple.
Most of 'Elitism' does not exist.
Some people consider other people superior to them and worthship them.
Others, seeing this instatnly think it's something that was 'created' by the person being admired and think her 'Elitist'.
Others are massively jealous and tell crap like that.

I'm sure there ARE some people considering themselves high and mighty because they can afford one limited edition after another or have supreme customizing skills or think they have the most fantastic doll with backgroundstory at all... but... I HIGHLY doubt those people make out even 1 % of the whole community.

And if I ever actually encountered a person that defies 'Elitism' I wouldn't care either way. Most likely that person would quickly end up alone, or only with people of her own kind. Not someone I'd bother with.

 

I haven't seen much trolling or elitism on the forums... obviously I'm not reading them enough!
My first and foremost opinion is "I don't think I'm better than anybody, and I don't think you can be a 'better owner' than any other owner because that's comparing apples to oranges."

But, as for real life, the BJD group I'm in is filled with the most incredible people who are accepting of all, so I feel really lucky now.

If you've spent a lot on your doll, congrats. If you've found a deal on your doll, congrats. I for one do not like it when people brag about prices. "She's 700 dollars." Yes, and mine's 250. Good for you. I will only mention my price when you mention yours.

In addition, I do feel like there is a difference between elitism and just complaining. You can complain about something, or be critical, but that doesn't always make you elitist.

 

I feel like I've seen elitism in every hobby: Cosplay, Art, BJDs, just to name a few...

But I feel also as if there is good with the bad. I've met some wonderfully sweet BJD owners, along with the occasional standoffish owner. But I don't think that should bother anyone that wants to get into the hobby at all. There are certainly more nice owners. ^^

 

When I was a newbie I thought on more than one occasion that I felt the sting of elitism. However, looking back on it all as a more experienced and more mature person, I think I was just overwhelmed and taking things out of context. There's a lot to learn, and it's easy to get frustrated and start seeing pride and malice where there is only well intended disinterest. That's another thing. The hobby is quite large, we see that especially well here on the forum. Just because someone isn't interested in you or your dolls doesn't mean they dislike you.

There was a topic in General Discussion asking why some owners don't go to meet ups and I was surprised by a lot of the answers. There were so many people saying they were afraid of being judged. Judged by what they looked like, what their dolls looked like, who their friends were... Everything! I felt so bad reading that because I truly think a lot of that fear is unfounded. I hate seeing people limit themselves because they're too scared to step out of their comfort zones.

I can sort of relate to that, and it's an awful mindset to be stuck in. Whenever I was at a rough point in my life, I tended to withdraw and I'd start to think people disliked me and it was better I just stay reclusive. But that's not true. For the most part, the worse you'll encounter is people who are indifferent. And it's totally ok to be indifferent!

Tiny tangent there. But yes, I think the majority of "elitism" is perceived. There will always be elitism in any hobby, but that's inescapable. However, I don't think the horror stories we fear are stemming from real cases of elitism, at least not the majority.

 

Yep, quoting a seven-month-old post again but hey, it's perfect.

One of the things that bothers me the most about this and all other Internet communities I've been a part of (since roughly 1990, in one form or another) is the attitude that goes roughly like this: "If you can't grow a thicker skin, you should get out."

No, darn it all, NO. If people can't take fifteen seconds to look at how their wording could potentially hurt someone else, and tone it down just a *little,* then they shouldn't be posting their words.

It's not possible to know how every person out there is going to take every word you say (lord knows I've had plenty of misfires myself) but it really seems to me that we owe ourselves at least the attempt to be pleasant to each other. Common courtesy is not all that hard to learn.

I do know some people who appear to have made it an art form to express their doll preferences in a beautifully written but thoroughly obnoxious way that seems calculated to hurt people who don't agree. Yes, we all have them, opinions and preferences -- and these can actually change over time, several times, even. That does not give us the right to slam others' preferences and opinions in public.

Be excellent to each other, people. It's not that hard.


Oh and: ETA: No, I'm not saying "don't express your opinion." All I am saying is give peace a chance. No, wait. Wrong song. All I am saying is take a moment to express your opinion well, without insisting everyone else share it. And that includes the opinions expressed above. I know there are folks out there who feel you should be able to express whateverthehell you think in whatever way pops into your mind at the moment. Unfortunately, wars can start that way, and have.

 

I am sorry to say that I have seen elitism in action within the hobby although I have only been involved with the hobby since April.

I enjoy box openings and tutorials on YouTube and was following a few bjd owners. I listened to a video discussion between two of them and was disturbed to hear them make a blanket statement about one specific doll company. They described the dolls as all being cheap and poorly made and something they would never buy.

Making a blanket statement like that about a specific company is what I consider elitism. I promptly stopped following these specific You-Tubers.

In person, I have never come across any elitism and have met nothing but bjd-ers that were truly sweet and helpful. I think the best response is to ignore those that are elitist and enjoy the rest of the bjd community that loves the great diversity of doll companies and molds.

 

Most definitely agreed. When it comes to the internet, it seems that people often think that they can be rude and mean, and it doesn't matter because, well, it's 'just' the internet. Intentionally being a jerk and then telling someone to "grow a thicker skin"? I'm not cool with that. At ALL.

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On the topic of elitism; I've read quite a bit of this thread, and I'm honestly surprised at the adamant denial that it exists. Just because it doesn't happen here doesn't mean it doesn't happen at all. Denying it and saying 'oh, it's all in your head, you're just too sensitive' only makes people feel defensive.

Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly NOT saying that the majority of BJD owners are elitists. Far from it! I've met some really lovely people since I got into the hobby, and I'm definitely happy for that. But, as I said before, denying elitism entirely doesn't make any sense. It does exist, but that's human nature I suppose.

 

Reading this thread, I didn't get the feeling that people were denying elitism exists, but that their overall attitude is that it doesn't happen quite so often as we sometimes are made to believe.
Since we've had quite a few heated discussions in the past where people were accused of being elistist (when they'e not), I think that it is a natural reaction.

 

You know, there is nothing elitist about not liking a certain doll company and expressing it openly. If someone slams your favorite brand, you need to stop yourself. Do you view criticism of your favorite brands as criticism of yourself? You're not alone! The University of Chicago did a study and those who "follow, research, or simply like a certain brand - were the ones whose self esteem suffered the most when their brands didn't do well or were criticized."

http://arstechnica.com/science/news...f-favorite-brands-as-threat-to-self-image.ars

The truth is not all dolls are the same. Some pose better - but better is a personal preference. Some people want acrobatics. Some people want dolls that look completely natural. Others just want a pretty doll and don't care how they pose. Companies have a variety of sculpting styles, resin quality, quality assurance, seam line removal, faceup quality and styles. People are going to have preferences based on what they like. There are companies where I like almost every doll they produce. There are others that have never produced a doll I like. There are others in between. That's not snobbery - that's having an opinion.

PS - Being a snob isn't the same as being elite. A snob thinks they are better than someone. An elite group is a group that is actually superior: "A group of people considered to be the best in a particular society or category, esp. because of their power, talent, or wealth." So elitism is referring to a group of people regarded by the community to be the best or above others, NOT someone who acts like a snob.

 

It's tricky though - what sounds friendly to my ears might sound aggressive to someone else. Especially when so much tone is missing in writing and people are reading through their own language/dialect/regional filters. That mean-sounding post might very well be someone else's long-pondered kind response, after all!

Which isn't to say "Grow a thicker skin", just that benefit of the doubt should go both ways.

That sounds more like a statement of preference than a claim to some kind of elite status though - unless there was more to what they said I don't see what's so objectionable about that. Liking something the most (or the least) isn't elitism on its own - I know people often object to the word "cheap", but as a relative term it can be an accurate description of a less expensive product and not a slam in and of itself (again, maybe there was more to it in this case, and fair enough if so).

 

Thank you. I sort of twitch now every time someone wails about elitism in this hobby, and they are misusing the word elitist. Someone can be an elitist and never be rude about it. They can be perfectly pleasant to other doll owners while still believing that almost all or certain companies are inferior to others.

Elitism =/= rudeness or snobbery.

 

I think part of the issue is where you see Elitism, and your own association with the BJD community. If you only look at posts and stick to forums, your view on the community can be very different then those who go to meetups. I have found most of the elitism to be when dealing with people in person. They don't even have to say anything, but in the community I'm in it's LARGE, and when at a meetup there will be 'cliches'. Those with one type of doll will group together, and not really even want to talk to you, unless it's to express the awesomeness of that one group of dolls. It's not that they are better then another they just really like one sort of doll. But it's easy to perceive that as others don't matter and therefore are inferior.

And it's not one company or anything, or one group, there are several Cliches. There is the Vynle group, yes the Volks group, there is the MSD college students, the 60cm+ majorily fantasy/artisy dolls, the older collectors, and so many others...

 

I HAVE experienced the snobbery, but not often. Once when I mentioned that my favorite doll, Amir, is an Angel of Dream, I was told that was a "cheap" brand and asked if he'd ever get upgraded! Well, Amir is an original character and my first doll and is my baby! (btw, yes, he did get upgraded...from an AoD Chen to an AoD Gu...)

But overall, no, it's not bad. I'd heard horror stories about mostly Volks owners and how stuck up and awful they were and how I should never take my dolls to meet with Volks people...so I was nervous about taking my DZ Mo-B/Doll Leaves hybrid to a meet...but I went anyway and there were dolls ranging from the under $100 range up to the limited Volks range and Loki got positive attention. And though I was a little nervous, I talked to the Volks owner, she let me hold the doll and we talked and she was really nice! Not stuck up at all. So now that I'm more experienced with the hobby, I'm a lot less nervous and have realized there are nice people and rude people that own all sorts of dolls. But I mostly run into nice people.

While I do have specific companies I personally like best and others that I don't care for at all, I wouldn't judge a person or doll based on that. Even with companies I do like, they have sculpts that I don't, and I have seen beautifully done dolls from companies I typically don't like.

As for commenting in the gallery...I tend to comment more on threads with few or no comments. They do tend to be less popular sculpts, but so often I prefer the less popular ones. A lot of the dolls I really like, thee are only one or two on all of DoA, so I enjoy commenting on those. The REALLY popular sculpts, I generally don't like. I can think of a couple off the top of my head that a lot of people really love, but I just don't see anything cute about them. But in the end, as long as the owner loves the doll, it really shouldn't matter what anybody else thinks. I may think a doll is hideous, but I'm not going to shun the owner for having a different opinion.

 

I am not sure how to answer this. I've been often called a "snob" by my closest friends, all in jest. But, that is probably because I have what I perceive to be such high personal standards for my dolls. Recently I have made a friend avid in the Anime community, but wants to break into the BJD community. At first she was asking me if I could sell any of my dolls for a low price. I told her, as kindly as I could, that my dolls tend to come in very expensive ranges and I'm rather attached to them.

She's been asking me to help her find a doll with a wig, eyes, face up, and outfit for around $300. I was at a loss, I had no idea how to find dolls blank for $300 other than many Luts KDFs, because I am so unfamiliar with, well, almost any company that isn't Volks. I tried to explain to her that those companies, the "less expensive" companies just didn't appeal to my tastes. I tried to refer some other companies I was familiar with, all of which were also out of her price range. But, they were all the ones I was familiar with. She asked me why all the dolls I like are so expensive, and I said that I think it may have something to do with the level of detail involved in the sculpting. I just didn't know.

To her, and to others, I sound like a snob, but it is just my tastes.

As a person who collects mostly Volks, I'm really getting tired of Volks constantly being used as the example of elitism, or "I don't like their aesthetics." As a Volks collector I sometimes feel like the monster in someone's closet. I really don't care if someone doesn't like Volks aesthetics, it just means more Volks available for those of us that like the dolls. It's just tiresome that Volks' name is constantly brought up. :P It feels like some feel the need to make a point of publicly stating how they don't like the brand beloved by these so-called Volks elitists.

And so for the not sister forum of DOA being snarky bitches... I'm going to quote someone and say, "Get over it and grow thicker skins." It isn't a nice forum, I've been racked over the coals and got a good tongue lashing. It took me a long time go get over the "meanies," but I realized that some of what they said was right, and some of it I just need to ignore and step back. I also had to realize I was wrong about some things I had done in response to him. Whether this has to do with crooked eye-crossed dolly eyes, or more embarrassing facts, I took the criticism and tried to do something right out of it. And anyone who has been to art school knows that sometimes constructive criticism isn't worded nicely, in fact some professors and colleagues will be out right mean telling you their faults. The world isn't nice.

Elitism and snobbery are often cried out here like a call of persecution. Everyone thinks they are persecuted. I think the mods can tell any of us of actual instances when someone on their forum has been harassed, everything else is pointless. DOA mods are obviously trying to keep this place a land of kittens and rainbows, with room to grow.

So, I'll say what some refuse to accept... grow thicker skins and get used to it. This hobby is often about art, and where there is art there is opinion and followed by harsh receptions. People who don't like the same thing probably are not going to congregate together. I like to look at purdy Volksies, so I'm going to search through Volks dorries. I also like a random doll from a random company, and I like to look a few other additional companies. I am probably not going to click on someone's gallery page if they aren't something, or their title thread doesn't offer something to catch my eye. Call me an elitist if you think that makes me one. Because, I'm not going to change it. This forum is big enough for all of us.

 

I'll be completely honest when I say that I was nervous joining the doa community for this very reason too. But I have to say, I still have yet to come across one of these people on this site. I had one person be... well... extremely rude to me, and i even told her she offended me, personally, but this situation had nothing to do with dolls or the hobby. So I guess it doesn't really count as being a "dolly snob"

Aside from that one instance, everyone I've spoken with on this site have been really nice; sure we disagree on things but that doesnt make someone a bad person. I've never felt put down for my opinions; so far I've felt nothing but accepted by this community.

I don't really think it makes you a snob. Just because certain things appeal to you more than others doesn't make you a snob; its when people start going "Well if you're not going to buy volks, you shouldnt buy a doll at all." I'm in the lesser popular community: volks dolls don't apply to me. But that never means that I'm not happy for people when they open up that volks doll and are extremely happy. I know that feeling too!

As for not clicking on things, I think a title is really important, too. And there's no sense in clicking on something in the gallery that you know you won't really have interest in. Of course, if you were to do that, you'd be clicking on EVERYTHING. Who has time for that? So I don't really think that's snobbish, either. ^^; that's just my opinion anyway.

 

99% of the people I've met in this hobby have been kind, warm and accepting. That 1%? That's divided between two meetup groups I belong to. One is Camp "if it's not an Iplehouse EID, a Soom monthly, a Fairyland Chloe or a LTF why own it"; the other is Camp "If you don't own Volks I guess that means you're too poor to really be in this hobby".

I don't know if that falls 100% under elitism, but that's what it always seemed to be.......