Elitism - How much is perceived?

So much magical truth in this statement. I'll be quite honest. I don't believe all dolls are made equal. I do think some dolls are light years better than other dolls, and that some brands are just awful and not even worth their price tag and are a waste of resin. Some dolls offend my eyes because of how unfortunately they are sculpted or painted or dressed. I don't care how much their owner loves them. It's never going to make me like that doll or find it attractive or worthwhile. No amount of DoA debate will ever bring me over to the side of "All dolls are wonderful and special and rainbows!" On the flip side, I am sure people feel the same way about my collection and my poor photography - that it is an offense to their eyes. Does it bother me? No, because I didn't buy the dolls to please them.

However, I am a mature adult and capable of not acting like an asshat. I even consider myself one of the snarkier doll people I know, and I still manage to not be rude to people and be friendly. If I don't think your dolls are all that, it's just that. We happen to have different taste in dolls. It doesn't mean I also instantly hate you as a person. I may question your taste, but I think we all do that to everyone we meet. I would hope that there is more to someone than just their dolls. And just because I may find a particular doll collection amazing to look at, it doesn't mean I'll instantly like the collection's owner.

Elitism and rudeness are not the same thing. I don't even see how elitism should even be considered a problem unless it is somehow being use to deny others rights/privileges that should be available to everyone or if the people involved are being rude to other people.

 

THERE IT IS AGAIN! Thank you!

 

Just wanted to say to everybody that says Volks owners are usually made out to be the bad guy....it was actually a DollZone owner that put down my Angel of Dream and told me if I was going to spend money on a doll, I should save up a little longer and get a "better" one. I was brand new to the hobby...and glad I went with my gut and not what they said. I DO have a couple of DZ hybrids now and they're great, but the AoD was what I wanted and is my fave.

but then again, I've never been one to give into peer pressure to make others happy.

 

Just as a data point on the other side, I have dolls from a wide range of companies as well and in general (as you said, there are exceptions to everything) but I have seen differences in quality that are reflected in the price (especially comparing dolls produced within a single country to balance for the wage differences).

I think it's worth saying that someone who acknowledges that difference (if they see one) is not insulting the lower-priced dolls or their owners or complimenting to the higher-priced ones (or their owners). It says nothing about whether a doll is cute or fun or worth buying or any of the other judgments that people seem to think the words “resin quality” or “sculpt detail” or whatever other comparison is being used seem to be taken as. It's just a comment on a product.

 

Like I said before, because I've gotten too old & have been in it too long to keep caring! I've had it. Just like Malgavitabella had that growing moment after sticking around for a year ("I don't fling myself on my bed and cry about it anymore" ^^), I've stopped caring about doll-collector-elitism after six years.

I still maintain that people shouldn't go about being random assholes to each other and bitching on each other's toys, because it's not called-for. But I also accept what Hunter S. Thompson called the "grim meathook realities" of it all. Rudeness is going to happen. It's just not always going to be rooted in any kind of elitism or class-warfare thang; in fact I'd propose most of it isn't. Some people are just bluntly spoken, or just lack social filters, or are just jerks. Thus, thick skin is actually required if one wishes to maintain one's sanity.

 

I had major culture shock when I moved to Chicago.

Where I grew up: If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. (Value: Relationship)
Chicago: Say it to my face, don't talk behind my back. (Value: Honesty)

Depending on the specific culture and time, people find it appropriate to say different things. Where I grew up I might confide in a close friend (yes, I just really find that doll ugly) and that is considered the BETTER thing to do, rather than say it to someone directly. I find many people who grew up in the city feel that's "talking behind someone's back" - but they don't think you shouldn't say it. They think you should say it to them, but you should say it to them alone and not in front of a crowd to avoid rudeness.

This board is international, so behaviors come from a wide variety of cultures. One person's "mean" is another persons "truthful".

 

I am going to put this on a t-shirt, Kim (thank you):

" I am a mature adult and capable of not acting like an asshat."

That's AWESOME!!!

~ back to topic ~

I agree 100% that there ARE different qualities of dolls and for those who choose to purchase the best quality available (whether it be easy or by careful budgeting) it is their right.
Dolls are dolls and people are people ~ we are NOT what we own. (that applies to all material things, actually). But, an A-hole (or asshat, if you will) is one no matter what they own, too...whether it be cheep and trashy or pricey and elegant.

 

Elitism exists everywhere, not only in the doll-collector's world. Everyday we make decisions based on what we think of things - if we perceive brand A to be more valuable/durable/beautiful/practical etc. than brand B, we will buy brand A, and we probably also will tell our friends and/or family about it. And blog it, too. It is like the Canon vs. Nikon discussion I just browsed through on DoA and a couple of photography communities. There are people who prefer Canon, and they say Nikon is less valuable/durable/color-intensifying/crisp-pictures-taking/"insert adjective of your choice"... And vice versa. This already can be perceived as "elitism". But actually it is just a question of taste. ALL elitism is just a question of personal taste. LOL.

So why do we expect that there will be NO elitism concerning dolls? Of course there is some. But I wouldn't chew my elbows off if someone said they think all the dolls I own were rubbish - because for me, they are not. I chose them because I like them. I might as well be thinking that the dolls of that person are rubbish. I just wouldn't say that because I know it is subjective and hence simply not true... I am sure that I wouldn't enjoy many conversations with a person who says my dolls are rubbish though.

But I also don't think all dolls are made equal. There are lots of differences! And also, not all dolls are good at the same things. For example, I really adore most of the Soom faces, but Soom dolls cannot beat my Dollzones at posing. And while a Dollzone can do a million of natural looking poses, it will never be as stable as my Elfdoll. And while an Elfdoll can stand without a doll stand, touch her face and hold her arms in the air, it will never have the sexy body shape of my AoD. And while an AoD has perfect hands and an ample bosom, her face, even with endless amounts of modding, will never reach the perfection of my Soom dolls' faces. So here we go. If I said any of those four sentences above in a thread that doesn't meta-discuss elitism, it would probably be perceived as... elitism.

 

I actually was ranting about some doll-related perceived atrocity near the beginning of my time in the hobby, feeling bad, wanting to lash out, feeling persecuted, etc. when a blunt friend of mine calmly told me to "stop being so sensitive". Best advice ever given to me. In this hobby and outside of this hobby, we all have to deal with the fact that not everyone has the same filters as each other. There will be someone who will just say what they mean and not sidestep and dance around the subject. There will be someone who absolutely hates your doll, your brand of doll, what they're wearing, etc. and actually say it and you DO have to grow a thick skin and ask yourself did you buy this doll to please this random person or did you buy it to please yourself?

 

Sorry I'm using your post but it perfectly describes what I consider okay behavior. You are entitled to your opinion! It's not wrong to feel one doll is better than another. It'd be stupid to think you're going to like all dolls. And there's nothing wrong with stating your opinion as long as it's not done in a rude way. Which is wasn't. So people won't agree with some ideas *but* that shouldn't mean you don't have a right to think or say your own opinion. I don't like every doll I see. There are a few companies who's dolls I see and think "Oh gosh not another xxxx". On the flip side, there's another company whose dolls I fall in love with almost every new one they put out. I don't think having a preference should make you or anyone an elitist. I'm really really sick of the idea that to like one Brand or only a few makes you some sort of anything.

When I go jeans shopping, I look for very specific brands. It's a preference. Am I jeans elitist? No. So why would I be a doll elitist? I really really hate that word associated with any hobby. I think a long time ago in this community as a whole some people perceived a difference in some collectors from others and blew it way out of proportion. Suddenly, Elitist threads started poping up. Suddenly, there was a problem where there wasn't one. Have a seen doll elitism? Yes, but like the op said it's rare. And although I've seen a few trolls on even this forum. They too are rare. There will always be people that "troll" But it's what the community as a whole does that matters.

 

I do think what is seen as elitist is mostly misunderstanding.
The closest i can say I've come to an "elitist" situation, is on one of the threads on here someone did pretty heavily bash Dollzone.
I didn't agree with their opinion and thought they were being unnecessarily rude to prove a point about the exceedingly beautiful (or some term to that effect) they thought the much more expensive dolls they preferred were.
I disagreed, I actually thought their beloved company limited themselves too much in terms of mold similarities, and wasn't fond of more than 1 or 2 of their dolls.
I didn't think that what they said was accurate. But I also stopped and thought for a second. Dollzone has had a lot of problems in the past, and a lot of people did use to think that they weren't worth the price tag. However, they've improved with age. It could very well have been her impression of Dollzone might have stemmed from one of their less impressive dolls.
It bothered me mainly because my doll was a new DZ doll, and she has a very nice weight to her, and was sanded and done beautifully. Instead of staying upset, I went and sewed some clothes for her and I felt better instantly. Even if someone might think she's not the best, or downright hates her, I love her. She is my doll and I bought her for me, and because she was appealing to me.
I do agree though that not all dolls are created equal, even from the same company.

At the end of the day it kinda boils down to, is what some random person says on a forum really worth being upset over? is it worth wasting the energy? Or letting it affect how you feel about your doll?
I don't think it is, when I come across this kind of behavior, I sigh and move along. If someone is being over the top, I might PM them and try and remind them how offensive certain tones can be.

 

Now, I always feel like I need to be a bit of an apologist for having all-Volks dolls. It's not because I think they're better-- it's not because I think having them makes ME better. I just like them, and I like that cohesiveness that dolls from the same company often have. That being said, some dolls don't fit into my "doll family's" aesthetic. I don't think that makes me an elitist.

Just because I don't own any other companies' dolls doesn't mean I dislike them-- It means I didn't buy them for my own collection.

But at meetups, I've met some people who own exclusively Bobobie or Resinsoul or what have you-- and the first thing that they say to me is something defensive, without me even saying anything about my dolls or theirs. It's really perplexing to me, and I don't get it. I'm not going to say anything mean to you about your baby-- I know that doll is your pride and joy, just like mine are to me. It may not be a doll I want, but that doesn't mean it's "bad," or whatever.

Different strokes for different folks, after all!

 

I feel like I'm in a bit of strange situation because I sometimes feel elitist while really disliking the idea of elitism. The mythical Volks-collecting elitist snob who tells people that they don't own a BJD unless they own Volks may or may not exist any more, but it's still a concept that makes me want to smash them over the head with my own beefy non-Volks doll. At the same time, there are companies who produce dolls that I think are utterly hideous, and I cannot look at them without going "Urgh!", horrible as it may sound.
Yes, I know they are that owner's precious beautiful babies, and I would never dream of letting any of my true feelings be known. But when I see squeeing galleries posts with "OMG isn't my dolly the most beeyoootiful thing evaaah?!" I can't help but think "NO! NO they are not, in fact they are hideous, that faceup is wretchedly disgusting, their clothes don't fit them/are unravelling/don't suit them, that wig is terrible, and what's more, that pose you have them in isn't humanly possible."
Now, of course, I don't say any of that. Instead I hit the back button, or if I'm pressed, find something nice to say. But I think it. And it's not just limited to dolls- I have that reaction sometimes with certain architectural styles, some fashions, etc.
So: is that elitism? Or am I just being some kind of snob in another way?

 

One thing I've noticed from doll communities is that people have strong opinions on what they like. We kinda have to else we'd buy every doll on the planet!
I think a lot of people mistake strong opinions for elitism. So somebody saying 'I don't like that doll or company." Is seen as criticism when really it's just preference.
A lot of doll owners are slightly self centric and awkward too, so in big groups we don't always hold our tongues or soften what we say. Somebody might say they like moody dolls and another will right away loudly proclaim their preference for happy dolls. It's not meant to put down the other person but it could be seen that way.
I've also found that people you might think were elitist often change their minds when they meet some dolls in person. I was told my a local they Hated french resin and weren't too fond of ringdolls. They met my doll and now she's a requested presence at meets!
While there are some elitists for whatever reason, they generally don't play well with others and don't show up to meets much because they're not fun to be around!

 

It's having an opinion. We all have them, and as long as we don't rudely scream it to someone's face, it's fine to feel that way.

 

I think it also has to do with tastes and interests. This hobby is actually really broad. The term "ABJD" in fact covers a very wide variety of dolls. There are really stylised dolls, dolls you could mistake for humans in photos, teensy-tiny dolls and dolls the size of a toddler, dolls that look like cutesy little children and dolls that look like sexy adults, anthros, unicorns and dolls with talons and all sorts of fantasy parts. If there are a number of people who somehow like all kinds of dolls, there are a lot more with very specific interests. There are collectors, photographers, artists, doll tailors and what have you. I have had to realise that if there aren't a lot of people who show interest in my dolls (who, by the way, are of course THE BEST DOLLS IN THE WORLD ;P), it's more likely to be because they are not interested in my particular niche of the doll world than because they "look down on" my dolls.

 

I would say that there's not really "elitism" as such as much as there are some ingrained attitudes about certain companies from people who for the most part have never held a doll from that company or seen one close up. Notice how there are about 5 doll brands that constantly get brought up in "elitism" debates? Some companies, say Hypermaniac or Ndoll or say Unidoll never get brought up. I think there are some set opinions about certain companies that get rehashed over & over. Dollzone is "x" or Volks is "x" or Soom is "x". I think these opinions just get rehashed over & over, sometimes by people who have never seen or held a DZ or a Volks doll and actually have no first hand experience of what they are talking about.

I love Volks and I love Dollzone, I think I have about equal numbers of both and (Shock! Horror!) I even have Volks/Dollzone hybrids! I don't like to hear snarky comments on ANY company - even if I personally don't like a single thing they do. I just think it's unnecessary. Like what you like and let others do the same. Also I think we could be a bit kinder to those who are new - maybe appreciate that their excitement at having a doll (any doll) is what makes them post sometimes - maybe they just want to share their new found joy - not get approval for their sock dress or as someone put it "crayon" face up.

 

I haven't met enough BJD owners, but I have yet to run into anyone considered elitist. I have, however, seen bits of subtle cattiness and snobbery, and I don't think it's because of what dolls people own, but moreso, of it being a clique. I've been trying to get involved with and interact with the people in my area, but they're just not having it. Oddly enough, we have similar tastes in dolls, but it's like they won't acknowledge certain people, no matter what they say, or show, unless it pertains to them somehow. But I think it's like that with any and every hobby.

 

I'm a total newbie, I'll admit that right up front. And I'd heard that the hobby was pretty elitist, so I was a little wary about that too. But I haven't seen any yet. People have been welcoming thus far.

The fact that the forum was restricted to only certain types of BJDs at first seemed elitist to me, until I read more into the wiki and saw that it was more about keeping the forums manageable. Which is entirely reasonable.

I still don't have a clear picture of what makes a doll on or off topic, but no one has been elitist or the least bit rude to me thus far. It seems more of an outsider perception to me thus far. A case of a couple of incidents coloring the view of everything else.

 

Sadly that's not the case all the time. You get it, you understand it, but often what happens is that a person WILL be insulting about the other person's doll. Saying it's less quality, or cheap, or they don't like it, or it's badly sculpted, etc... They may not mean to be rude but it happens. (Oh and just quoting you as you have the right attitude that is often lacking).

When someone tells you that your doll is 'less' then any other doll because of substantial reasons (quality of resin, molding, price), they forget that there is intangible value to the doll of 'how much the owner likes their doll'. So while one person is trying to just give facts, there is a lot more behind collecting then just collecting based on monetary values. Which not everyone sees.

I've seen it again and again, there is also this need for people to 'justify' their collections. To make their collection more important then someone else's. That their choices are some how better or right. In a way they are seeking approval from others. As I stated before I see most of this happen in-person, at meetups. And generally the people just don't even know or realize they are doing it. They think they are doing a comparison based on facts (quality, cost, etc...) as above, and forgetting the 'human' elements behind it.

I'll go to a meetup, and bring one of my dolls and I've had people insult it. Not realizing I was within earshot. Then a moment later that same person is talking about how they want X doll, and I just laugh to myself (because while they have insulted my Y doll, I also own X doll, and they have no clue). I usually offer to bring X doll to the next meetup for them to check out.

Something I have also found is that over time, with 'friends' in the doll community, when there is a meetup, you have the requests for X doll to come. But what's even better is when people ask to see specifically 'doll name' doll. Because it's about the character, about what the doll has become and not simply the mold. Next time you see a doll that's mold you may not like, take a moment and find out about the doll from it's owner. (Usually there is a whole back story and reason behind the doll that you didn't know). And while you may never like that mold you can appreciate the doll and character, and find the value that the other person has in the doll that you can't see beyond the 'facts' about it.