Elitism - How much is perceived?

That's nice of you. If someone insulted MY doll, behind my back or to my face, I'd turn around and whack them with it. It's not that they don't like my doll because that's understandable, different people like different things, and while my dolls may appeal to some people they certainly won't appeal to everyone. But to just insult a doll at a meet, even if the owner is out of earshot- that is just rude, ugly behaviour. And very imprudent too, condering that even if you don't say it within earshot of the owner, chances are they'll find out what you say anyway.

 

While I agree it's rude to insult a doll within earshot, it's not rude if the doll owner isn't around - depending on where you live..

I grew up in an environment where you rarely say negative things directly to people, but it's perfectly acceptable to say negative things in confidence to someone else, trusting they won't repeat it. When you do say something negative directly to someone, that means you expect them to do something about it. If someone says something negative to me, I assume it is a critique meaning I need to change. "Your doll is ugly" isn't a critique, therefore it shouldn't be said to the owner, but it's acceptable to confide that "gee I think that doll is ugly!" to someone in confidence, since it's a personal opinion and not a critique. There is also the added benefit of having your opinions contradicted or validated in a non-confrontational setting.

Where I live now, there is a whole section of the population obsessed with "people talking behind your back". You can say the most hurtful, negative things directly to someone's face (I consider this rude!) but you can't say any negative comment unless it's directly to them. I think this is a horrible way to live.

 

It's not always about the 'best quality' doll. It's about the doll that is best for the owner.

My feelings on elitism are just like a song: Everyone's a little bit [elitist]

It just depends how you act about it. I can look at a doll with black paint globbed around the eyes and tattered, first-time-sewing clothes and yes, I may raise my eyebrow but I'm not going to judge the doll sculpt or the owner for that. I've seen lots of 'cheap' dolls that look better than the 'best quality' dolls. It's all about what the owner does with them, and it's also about personal preference and taste.

So, I may be a bit elitist but I'm not going to share my dislike about something with them or any other person. I actually do try to always find something nice to say about any doll that comes in contact with me, even if it's not my speed. In my experience there is always something positive to be said about anything.

As for others and their opinions of me, well, I hope they do the same. I've never met anyone who meanly criticized my dolls (to my face anyway)

 

In our area here in Germany we have a problem that, partly, focusses on this elitsm thought in the hobby.
Little story time:
We had one big BJD only doll forum, and a few years ago it was a quite round with people who knew each other or were in the hobby for a while already. New people were always welcome and you knew if you had a problem or a question, someone would surely help you.

After a certain website about Anime/Manga opened a fanwork category for BJD (or better: clothes sewn for BJD) there suddenly was a HUGE number of new BJD owners.
Sadly these people usually were teens who barely had the money to really afford the hobby (i.e. not a cheap doll, but a cheap doll with bad face up, socks as clothing etc.)
And the fact that nearly all of these guys were still teens, 100% into anime and especially yaoi, childish and arrogant pretty much led to a break in the forum and also the German community.

For the new ones we are arrogant elitists who just want to be in their little, not so known hobby.
They never asked themself why some of them got banned from the forum (maybe because they called the mods "whores" etc.?) or why there way to "enjoy" the hobby is hard to understand for others (taking pictures of your dolls with your used sextoys? Really?).

What I want to say is: Elitism, like beauty, is somehow in the eye of the beholder. Of course there are some people who really might be snobbish assholes thinking they are, for some reason, better than the rest. But sometimes you should look at yourself and ask why someone might not like you.
Maybe it's because you love to buy 15 Soom dolls on layaway, sell every doll as soon as you got it for twice the price or just like to break the rules? Maybe it is because you've stolen photos from a known BJD owner and slapped your own signature on her photos? And then pretend that's nothing bad?
Usually there are REASONS why people don't like you, and especially if a whole forum doesn't like you, you really should start thinking if it's because of elitism or because you really did something to upset the people.
About the rest: People should stop worrying all the time people XY might not like there cheap doll. Of course there are guys who think there are the best for owning whatever doll, but mostly people don't care about the doll itself but about what you made out of it.
I can enjoy a well customized, wonderful looking Bobobie a lot more than a horrible looking SOOM MD.

About myself: I know people call me snobbish because of the way I handle the hobby, but I'm a "what's worth doing, is worth doing well" type. If I do something, I want to do it "right" and with all the things I have available (i.e. money, time, work, photography etc.). That's why it is hard for me to accept people who just buy doll for doll for doll for doll, smash them into sewn together socks, put a Sharpie face-up on them, take webcam pictures of them having sex with each other AND THEN want to be praised for it like someone who has put all his effort into a nicely done photoshooting with wonderful looking dolls etc.; sorry, I can't do that nor I WANT to do it. Do whatever you want to do with your doll, but don't expect every person to like it.

PS:

This.
I already said that to people quite a few times, and they also called me snobbish. I usually just say then "Oh well, I can't afford a boat, but unlike you I'd never think to go into a club and say "Buhuu, I'm so poor, you guys are all so mean"."
Either you CAN afford a hobby, or not. And some can afford it more easily than others, that's just the way the world works.
There was a girl who was all like "Well, BJDs are way too expensive, I just make one myself, that can't be too hard".
And I told her that in fact making a BJD IS quite hard, expensive and time consuming and that with the doll itself the whole thing doesn't stop and that clothes etc. are equally expensive. She told me to shut up and that she, as someone who did the doll herself, would love hers much more than I'd ever love mine because I "just bought them". Well, whatever

 

Though I can understand your opinion and agree with you that noone can expect people to like what they like, it is also easy to read resentment against "new" BJD owners into your words. I am saying "read into" - because I don't think that you are against new BJD owners in reality. From what you wrote I understand that you were dissapointed by the guys who joined the hobby during that huge wave of anime-loving fans, but do not hold any grudge against new collectors in general. So I think this is another good example of possible "perceived elitism" - a comment that probably only describes a personal experience but can easily be misunderstood as a generalizing statement implying that some people are in some way better or worse than others

 

Well, we also got a lot of wonderful new people during that time, but they knew how to behave politely. These people are also still in our forum and also complain about the other "newbies", why the other guys started to make their own forums. There were two forums where you could talk about BJDs, now there are maybe 10? And most of them are just tiny forums of people who got banned or their friends got banned for their bad behaviour and they followed them to a new, selfmade forum. These forums are a) pretty much dead and b) mostly just a place for badmouthing about other people and c) a place where barely any rules exist, so if you want to post a Photostory of a SD raping a YoSD, go for it :'D

"Disappointed" is the right word to explain my feelings, yes. They had the possibility to come into a wonderful forum and to join a very nice, albeit small hobby. Instead they behaved like a bunch of impolite idiots (because liking Anime or Yaoi etc. itself is nothing bad, but combined with a childish and arrogant attitude it is). And the worst part is that they just don't understand WHY so many people seem to have a problem with their behaviour.

Like I said, one girl had stolen pictures from Bluoxyde on deviantart, edited her signature out and uploaded them as their own.
When I told her that this is absolutely unacceptable and that someone who complains that everyone is soooo mean to her shouldn't do such a thing, she just went to another site and started saying "These guys are mean again to me, I did nothing wrong, Ara is such a whore buhuuu". Best part? People told her she did nothing wrong and shouldn't feel bad.
THAT'S what I hate about these new guys in our forum. They do something bad, they get punished for it, they complain about the punishment without thinking about the REASON why they got punished.

Or like someone has already pointed out, you have people who just lack the possibilites or talent but try their best, and you have people who think they are the best while using Sharpie on their doll's face-up and telling everyone to do the same and so harming other people.
It's just unbelievable how someone dare to say "Well, use that, I did so too", believing they know everything better while everyone screams "NOOO DON'T DO IT".
There is one girl using stabino fineliner for her tattoos in her commission shop and when someone asks her about it she starts getting mad and that the way she does her stuff is nobody's business.
Well, bad that one friend of mine bought a body from her and had to sand off the tattoo since it was unremovable :/

 

Hmm. I don't know which of those is worst, to be honest. In the one case, you're two-faced, in the other... you're not a hypocrite, but you're just unnecessarily mean! (You is general here).

And how can you KNOW that something bad you say won't be repeated? Sure, you're friends with your confidant now, but later on they may turn on you. Or someone who's a friend of the owner you're discussing may overhear. In either case, feelings get hurt, and in a hobby that's so fraught with emotional bonds as this one, it's not worth the risk.

I've never been to a meet and don't plan to, but if I did and there was a doll present that I thought was utterly hideous, I would nudge my friend and hiss "Gah lookit that fugly doll!!". I'd probably just go and look at another doll, or if I was talking to the owner, pick up on at least SOMETHING about the doll, no matter how small. "I like the way her ears are sculpted" or "the colour of the wig really suits her eyes" or just SOMETHING.

One thing I am really elitist about is doll photography, I've realised. It's not about loads of expensive props and equipment, but for me, more about the tastefulness of it, or the artistry. I particularly dislike the pictures of a naked doll, flopped on a bit of wrinkled cloth with its legs apart, its arms usually in some awkward position and its neck cricked so it can look at the camera with what the photographer may think is a mischievous smirk. No no no no NO! That really makes me roll my eyes. But even so, I can just click the back button (most of the time). If the owner/photographer is shoving the pic in my face and going, "hey hey hey, checkout my sexay doll, isn't he/she hawt?!" then, and only then, maybe I'd be provoked to offer a few tips from my own limited photography experience ie. dolly junk need only be hinted at, rather than seen.

 

With regards to the photo's I make, everyone would feel elitist.

Just suck at that, which is why I almost never post pick of my pretty, pretty dolls. I can pose them nicely, give their hair a good comb, built an elaborate set up, but the photo will still suck.

 

I think it is not the photography skill that matters, because not everyone can be good at that. It is the effort that matters, and the amount of thougt and work one puts into the shot. If a person takes a picture of their doll, posed nicely, with combed or styled hair, in a cool setup, no one will think that their pictures are horrible. Even if they don't take them with a SLR and even if they don't know anything about the right lighting or don't manage to get the focus right, or if use flash in a wrong way. The pictures still can be good. Because it might be the doll itself that is art, the doll that people looking at the picture want to see - or the clothes, the styling of the wig, the face-up, the props... So I don't think that a picture that is not perfect necessarily provokes elitist thoughts. (And I am sure your pictures are better than mine, LOL.)

 

Thanks dollblue.

 

Many of my favorite dolls are dolls that I am not at all interested in purchasing. Meaning, I like the owner's taste and the way they customized their specific doll. I don't need to get to know the company better or perhaps consider buying a similar doll in the future. When it comes down to the actual purchase I have preferences based on facts that in my estimation are sound. If that sounds elite to some well, so be it.

It's just too bad that this topic (with horror stories) never dies as it gives new people the impression that all this actually matters? If you run into a rude person at a doll meet move on. Seriously, rude people are everywhere and getting your panties into a bunch about it will only make you unhappy in the long run. I can go outside and encounter a rude person at the coffee shop who thinks they don't need to wait in line because "blablabla". It doesn't mean the world is over run with elitism.

I still also think that healthy critique with the right group is informative. My friends saying "ugh my "X" can't stand to save his life", or "I sold my "X" because the snappy legs drove me nuts", or "My "X" doll yellowed so fast I had to sell her", or "I think "X"s have their eyes set too close together, the stylization bothers me" is good conversation. You can actually LEARN something from fellow collectors if you are in this hobby for something like artistic exploration.

 

I think "ugh my "X" can't stand to save his life" is OK but "ugh dolls from brand "X" can't stand to save their life so you are a "Y" if you love them" isnt.

 

I've only seen elitism once or twice but both times we all ignored the person involved. Once is was a girl who only bought Korean dolls and was trashing all "chinese cheapies". She also complained about "those stuck up volks people". (Anyone seeing the irony here?) Her friend stayed and listened while we all just went off and did our own thing. Ironically, she loved my Ringdoll.

The other time it was a girl who loved RS/BBB trashing anyone who paid more than $200 for a doll. "They're just rich [insert long streams of insults here]. What stupid spoiled brats! I can't BELIEVE how much they paid for a hunk of plastic. I WOULD NEVER pay that much." Again, my group just kinda backed off an went somewhere else.

I find that while I've seen some snobbery, most of the doll community is like " seriously?" to that kind of behavior. Thanks to this general unspoken rule of "let's act like human beings, shall we?" I've found the community to be much more tolerant than all the complaints led me to believe.

I will mention that I see more of this rudeness online (DoD much?). I think it's a threefold problem.

1. I'm in my house, I can say what I want. (Same idea behind road rage and why people are aggressive in their personal car.)

2. There is a certain degree of "When I can't see your face, I forget there is a human behind that post."

3. Trollolololololololololo TROLLING. I used to get so hung up on those, when I realized that I was giving them what they wanted. Now I'm just like: "Oh how sad. I'm sorry you have nothing better to do than rage at other people. Have you thought about getting some help for those unresolved issues?"

 

For the most part everyone I have ever met at a con, meet up or doll show has generally been very nice. I have come across a couple of people who just happened to not be very friendly but I do not think that has anything to do with being elitist as much as some people are just not very sociable. Or maybe they just didnt feel comfortable with me or I was ogling their doll too much lol.

I love lots of dolls from all different companies. I do own mainly Volks dolls but I love lots of other companies dolls as well. I love seeing dolls I do not own more than the ones I do own. I happen to really love mature girl dolls but I do own any so I really love getting to see them in person.
If someone really thinks they cannot be your friend or hang out with you because your doll cost less than theirs then you dont really want to hang with them anyway. I am just so thrilled when I find people who get the whole "I collect dolls" thing because really most adults dont.
I think it is very easy in this hobby when we type to people, with no personal interaction to get snippy at times. You dont see anyone but a screen. Things can also be misread or misinterpreted and feelings can get hurt. I really try and make an effort to not write anything that may hurt someones feelings, and most of the time I just stay away from controversial posts. Although, at times that can be hard.
I wanted to add elitism isnt being rude like what I have mentioned in my post. Everything I wrote was people being antisocial or not friendly. I do not think I have ever experienced Elitism.

 

I very rarely witness elitism and I really do try not to focus on it, but it does happen. Why, just a little over two weeks ago someone called one of my Resinsouls a cheap piece of trash to me online. Now, this is a doll that has a $60 face-up and a few hundred dollars worth of clothing and all that. While she may be a relatively inexpensive doll, I've put a heck of a lot of effort into making her lovely. The nastiness I got was totally because of the brand. Said person actually said it was the reason when I asked them exactly what their problem was, given this whole thing was entirely unprovoked on my part. It hurts, but I know all of my dolls, regardless of the brand, are lovely if they are my dolls that cost $400 or $130.

I think the majority of people are not over the top like the person I just recently had this experience with. It's just a shame that a few bad seeds can't keep their opinions to themselves or at least not say it to the owner's faces...

 

That's because your example is a personal attack? My example wasn't. It was about aesthetics and construction and not people. I have never never heard any one say such a thing anywhere at a meet. I can think of a handful of times where I ever heard such a thing said to any person on any topic to their face as you described. Maybe when I was 10 years old but not now.

As a side note, I just read your comment on your photos. You might try hanging out in the photo threads where people give some tips. Photography is something you need to just keep banging away at and getting as much critique as you can. If you start taking photos like mad you will see a big improvement over time. Post the best ones in the critique threads and ask how you can improve. People are very helpful on DOA.

 

I'm too old to care what other people think about my dolls, LOL. Is there elitism in the hobby? Probably, since it involves a large number of people, and there are bound to be a few in every crowd. Are there people who are overly sensitive and imagining elitism? Probably, see previous observation.

 

People are occasionally snobby. It's a fact of life. Some are more than others, but everyone has certain levels of 'elitism' and if you say that you never have experienced this in any form including the infamous, "I'm eating something that's better for me than what you're eating" thought than you are flat out lying.

It can be said that some are excessively -snobby- or -rude- because they want to be. I always have to wonder what exactly they are hiding by this confrontational front.

You asked if we should be worried about it. Well, no. Why should we be? What does it have to do with us? The fact of the matter is someone can engage in a full on attack of you and it may not feel good in the moment. Lord knows, I've had those moments....

Nevertheless, someone's actions and commentary does NOT have to have an impact on you.

( I sound more and more like those wonderful self-help books I read as part of my studies...)

In other words, ignore what they have to say about your BJD loves.

Now, I love a good argument for argument's sake. I would argue with the sign post down the street except it wouldn't offer me any fun replies. Nevertheless, someone who argues and is a pain about it constantly doesn't necessarily qualify as elitist or snobbish. Those that do it with a nasty edge may do it just to stroke their precious pet egos... In my opinion, I'd wager that that would be the motivation 9/10ths of the time.

Random Person: *Pets Ego.*

...Ewww, Freudian reference. @_@ I hate Freud.

...Ahem. Anyhow!

Do what I didn't do when younger: Disregard them and say, "Thank goodness I didn't waste my time..." like so many others here in this thread apparently did in very mature ways.

Maturity is such a nicer pet; you have to wonder why so many people refuse to adopt it.

 

Hmmm... I don't think I've countered any elitism.

I know plenty of people who like a particular company's dolls and dislike another company's dolls - but that's just individual taste. I do that myself - I very fond of most, but not all, RML sculpts (sadly they seem to have gone out of business) but don't like most (but not all) of the DollsTown sculpts... I prefer smiley or at least neutral sculpt s that can be face-upped to look happy and DollsTown runs to miserale or pouty sculpts for the most part. But I can happily admire other people's DollsTown dolls while recognizing that they simply aren't right for me.

I don't think I've encountered anyone who is elitist in that they look down on others who don't share their won tastes in companies, sclupts, faceup aesthetics, or styling of individual dolls.

I also think that a lot (not all, but a lot) of perceived elitism stems from oversensitivity.

People take a comment that someone doesn't like one of their dolls far too seriously. They perceive it as elitism on the part of the person making the comment, when it's simply a statement that the particular doll in question doesn't appeal to the tastes of the supposed elitist.

I don't expect people to like my dolls, or the way I choose to have them painted, or how I style their wigs, or how I dress them. My gang of little E. Nesbitt wannabe's sometimes stand out like a sore thumb among the goth and emo dolls that predominate at the DoA meets. I don't think any of others at the meets are elitist for not dressing their dolls like mine or not liking how I dress mine, any more than they think I'm elitist for not dressing my dolls like theirs or not necessarily liking the way they style them. That's just personal tastes for your own dolls.

Teddy