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Evidence for oil/enamel/wax damaging PU?

Jul 10, 2015

    1. So, from what I gather, it's not unusual for some Asian faceup artists (even v well-known ones) to use enamel for faceup. Sometimes glittery eye shadow is used as a final touch. Elsewhere, in the English-speaking BJD community, I saw someone recommend using coconut oil to wipe a faceup whose msc has suddenly developed flaky white blooms.

      But these seem to be unorthodox choices and everyone in the English-speaking BJD world recommend only watercolor pencils, pastels, acrylic paint, and art glitter.

      The discrepancy between the English-speaking BJD world and the faceup artists in Asia has made me wonder if anyone has provided any solid proof against oil/enamel paint/etc? Is it just anecdotal evidence being echoed back and forth into an urban myth? Has anyone asked polyurethane makers or has chemists in the hobby ever stepped in and explained?
       
      #1 eugenio-ruspoli, Jul 10, 2015
    2. Quite often I think what's possibly happening is people translating acrylic glosses or finishes as "enamel" when it probably isn't what we mean in English when we say Enamel.

      Also, our bias against oils is that PU is porous and semipermeable. Oils can get into the porous material and stay there, and some can and do cause the material to degrade. I personally wouldn't bring coconut oil anywhere near resin, but if someone else feels it doesn't hurt their doll, that's their risk to take.
       
      #2 Rosslyn, Jul 10, 2015
    3. no, I know what you mean, that it's a translation issue. But the foreign languages I'm talking about enamel paint products and acrylic paints are different words, with no chance of conflation. There are even comparisons of the coloring and coverage properties of enamel and acrylic, in the bjd hobby. In my searches around DOA it seems to be a known fact that *some* of the company faceups are done with enamel paint and therefore has a very high chance to stain (but why?).
       
      #3 eugenio-ruspoli, Jul 11, 2015
    4. Enamel and any oil-based products penetrate the resin, sometimes deeply, and carry the pigments with them. So your doll can be so deeply stained that no amount of sanding will get the color off. Water-based products remain on the surface for the most part, and so in the rare case where there is staining, a little light sanding will get rid of it.

      There are some anecdotal stories of an oil-based or acetone-based product actually degrading the resin, causing it to become soft and crumbly, or even to melt. I have to admit I haven't seen any of those stories for a couple of years now, but I certainly would not be willing to take the chance.
       
      #4 Victoria Victrix, Jul 11, 2015
    5. I have to admit that in twelve years, I've never seen this "known fact" anywhere on DoA. Could you link us to some of the threads where you've found that information about company faceups, please?
       
      #5 Cynthia in FlintHills, Jul 11, 2015
    6. here's one: http://www.denofangels.com/forums/showthread.php/587118-Company-face-up-stains
      here's another (didn't specify company faceup but the prev artist used enamel): http://www.denofangels.com/forums/showthread.php/280694-How-to-remove-model-paint
      there's a recent tumblr confession that got me thinking: http://bjdconfessions.tumblr.com/image/123740245832 (but I can't find the coconut oil reference again though I remember the circumstances, it was for a final coat of MSC that's suddenly turned into frosty flakes)

      Looking into why enamel paint and MSC don't play well, I looked into what's in MSC, and found that it's an acrylic lacquer, (acrylic particles suspended in organic solvent.) The organic solvents in the MSC would have to evaporate completely for MSC to dry and form a layer of acrylic barrier between the PU and the faceup. It would be I assume the same organic solvent that, if insufficiently dried, gets dissolved by the oils in the enamel paint. But this is the effect of the MSC.

      What happens between the enamel paint itself and the PU?
       
      #6 eugenio-ruspoli, Jul 11, 2015
    7. Thanks! I still only see one person's uncorroborated assertion here on DoA that some companies use enamel paints for their faceups, but if you're satisfied with that, good enough.

      Since I've never had any difficulty removing flaked/old MSC with the materials I normally use to remove faceups, I don't feel any great need to try coconut oil, myself. I'm sure it would be interesting to see the results of an actual experiment, photographed thoroughly and posted in Customization & Maintenance.

      And with reference to your final question, too, why not try the experiment yourself? Just about everyone on DoA would be interested in well-documented results, posted in Customization & Maintenance.
       
      #7 Cynthia in FlintHills, Jul 11, 2015
    8. right, when I looked back into the DOA forum searches I realized most of my conclusion is drawn from Asian forums, which talks about enamel paint quite frankly. I pressed some faceup artists on details and some of them reveal that they use Mr. Color's *water-based* enamel (which are acrylics). BUT not an insignificant number use the oil based enamel (the original Mr. Color).

      I might do an experiment just to put it to rest in my mind. I have a capless second-hand head arriving in the mail soon.
       
      #8 eugenio-ruspoli, Jul 11, 2015
    9. The oil and solvents in the enamel paint itself penetrate into the porous PU, and carry the pigments with them. This can, and generally does, cause irreparable deep staining, and since the oil and solvents continue to penetrate the PU, the stains spread. Now mind you, the forum posts showing the evidence for this are long since gone; there has been a lot of archiving since then, and one complete forum reorganization, so I can't show you forum posts that prove this. But they did exist, and were well documented with pictures, some of which showed the PU starting to get soft and crumble, some showing it actually melting.
       
      #9 Victoria Victrix, Jul 12, 2015
    10. I'm also quite worried about those new trends using oil. IOS was sharing a video where they show a tutorial how to paint their latest head (the taurus skull) with oil paints. This is no translation error, they were using real oil paints. Ok, the result looked great, and I think it might be ok if you want to have this head painted like this forever and never change it. But if someone tries this way of painting, maybe the very first time, and it doesn't turn out well - I'm pretty sure it can never be completely removed for a new try.
      It's very dangerous if some newbies try this oil paint tutorial and want to sell their heads later without any notice. And someone will buy their head, try to remove the faceup for something new - and the oil paint went thru the whole resin...
      I'm quite disappointed by IOS, as real artists and known company they shouldn't share such tutorials.
       
      #10 Sadomina, Jul 13, 2015