Faceup Artistry- what constitutes 'copying'?

I think it's very hard to direct copy a faceup because you'd have to copy that artists style. Most artists have their own style and interpenetration of the faceup you might be showing them. I think in order for it to be a copy they would have to look almost exactly the same...brush strokes included.

 

With face up copying, it's going to be about a lot of things.

First and foremost, intent. You cannot copy something without knowing you're going to. This is especially true with face ups, since so many people just want a natural highlight face up. So, if you decide to open up a face up commission, and you sit browsing the galleries for something that looks very similar to what your client asked for and begin copying it stroke for stroke, then yes, copppppping has occurred. But if you get the doll in, and start working on what your client has told you they want and it ends up looking similar to someone elses face up, then no, copying hasn't occurred. All that's occurred is two artists thinking similar in terms of aesthetics of lines and colours.

With tutorials. Tutorials are meant to teach techniques so that artists have as many as possible at their disposal. If an artist puts up a tutorial, they are opening themselves up to having a lot of competition for what ever it is. But here's the thing, techniques do not take into account style. Techniques teach the rules, and style breaks them. Each artist is going to have their own style, whether it be the length of lashes, the way they shade lips, the way they arch eyebrows. It's all their. Now in other art industries, plenty of people have the same sort of style, no matter how "Unique" it is, due to the amount of people involved. I'm sure it's the same for faceups. But between skill level, style and what's being commissioned, no two faceups should come out looking exactly the same. Unless copyings involved.

 

When i had my ani boy face-uped by another artist i used a Luts photo has an visual example to so show the artist what i basically wanted him to look like. i know from doing me own dolls face-ups. That its alot easier to have visual to go by then to work on it so randomly. Has you get more experienced with face-ups you start to become more daring with your creativity. so over time you develop your own style. I've face-uped for 5 years only commissioned a few times because i find the whole process annyoing. If someone liked my dolls face-ups well enough to copy it i wouldnt care.

I dont think its really possible to copyright a dolls face-up. I can understand a moral objection some people may have, but i personal have aways considered it not copying, but inspired by.

 

Hello
I've noticed that all of the posts to this thread by owners and artists can be categorized into 3 types of responses:

A) It is unethical to copy another artist's work.
B) It is a pointless debate, because due to differences in face-sculpts and painting styles it is impossible to perfectly reproduce a face-up
C) It is a pointless debate, because even if you ask an artist to re-do their previous work on the same head, it is difficult to perfectly reproduce the same thing twice.

I agree with Lennie: Most artists need a reference to work from anyway - weather it is another doll, a picture in a magazine or a book, a family photo, or even looking at yourself in the mirror for proportion and placement of features.

This is my answer because I have zero experience doing face-ups, and I have to look somewhere to keep me focused on the big picture, and not get bogged down in details as I go. I blatantly copy for now because as a beginner I have no style, yet. Also: hope I never stop being inspired by other artist's work and thinking "Hhmmm..."

 

I think it takes a professional level face-up artist to truely copy another professional's work, and most artists that advertise on this forum that are in that league, state pretty clearly they will not directly copy another artist's work-although apparently that is not always the case based on the existence of this thread. It seems there is an unspoken code of ethics within the group of top notch face-up artist's about this type of thing, not only in doll painting, but in other art genre's and communities as well.

Bottom line is, most really good artists don't need or want to directly copy another artist's work. If it becomes a trend, that artist will quickly get a bad reputation and be known as the "copier" just like doll companies that copy sculpts and try to sell bootleg copies.
It just isn't good manners or good business in the long run.

 

A) It is unethical to copy another artist's work.
SURE IS, pity new commissioners often ignore this.. well.. sort of a rule.
And people will always keep requesting someone else's faceups on their doll.
[had had a lot of people do this.. can you copy this artist or make my doll look like that.. and even my own dolls.. which is completely RUDE]

It seems that on another community I'm at Originality is becoming a huge issue lately anyway. And this is just one of those things.
It is okey to take inspiration when you are learning, but when you are developing more.. start doing your own original things.. create a unique style.

And copying.. people say it's a complement.. but i and a lot of other people find it Rude.
Especially if you do it unasked

 

even the same artist, working on the same heads, at the same time cannot make them both exactly the same without screen printing.

Proof:


HOWEVER: Celeb repaints are by design meant to be the same.
I do recognize the work as distinctly mine though.

I can see the subtle differences.
Eyebrow lines, lashes, one is slightly darker than the other.
The scar is different.
I TRIED to make them the same.
Worked on them both the same amount of time each day.
Its close but no.

 

As both an artist and a customer, I would feel alot of it had to do with intent. If the intention is a direct rip off of another style then yes it is unethical. I think that most artists (in all areas) learn by mimic, we see the styles which lead to the desired look, I still heavily ref photos for certian asthetics. As many have said, using ref, or asking for a certian type of "mood" is not.

Reguardless of if something can be perfectly reproduced or not is not the issue with "copying" in my mind. Once again its the intent behind it. If the desired effect is an exact duplicate, reguardless of the originators feelings on the matter than. thats just poor form. If you are inspired by something you have seen, a quality that you find to be striking and you seek to catch the same feeling thats inspiration.

 

You've raised an excellent question here. based on my experience with makeup artistry different features = different look regardless of how exactly color/shading is copied.

 

Okie, I have two hypothetical scenarios I'd like to mention here I use first person terms, because it flows better.

1. My doll has a factory face-up. I have the doll for several years and the original artist no longer works for the company. My doll suffers a chip/scratch in its make-up and I'm devastated. I can't get hold of the company face-up artist for (_____) reason. Is it unethical/unreasonable for me to ask a professional face-up artist (who may or may not charge more than I would have paid the factory) to try and replicate my dolls old face-up because I happen to really like that one and anything too different would mar the feelings I have for that doll.

Possibility to think about: If I have to change the face-up completely or leave it chipped/scratched I may have to sell the doll because I can't bear to look at it.

Thoughts from face-up artists and customers alike?


2. My doll has an entirely unique and extremely elaborate face-up. It's twiddly. Someone I know approaches me and says that as they love the face-up so much they've asked someone to imitate the style, but not attempt to directly copy the face-up of my doll and want to know if I'm ok with it. They supply images and I can see that certain parts are identical but for a colour difference, and others are changed enough to be different but the inspiration is obvious. Should I be happy, or miffed? Is it copying? Is there anything wrong with this?

Possibility to think about: I paid a huge fee for my unique face-up, and someone else can replicate it pretty well - this may devalue my doll.

Thoughts?


Personally, if someone could (and would) replicate a factory face-up of a doll I loved and couldn't get a new face-up for, I'd be over the moon. I dread the day I have to find someone to re-do my dolls' face-ups, because if I can't get the original artist I don't know what I'll do - I love them for how they are. I wouldn't consider this 'copying' and I'd let the artist have leeway to use their own style, of course. But then - the smart thing to do would be to shop around and find someone with a similar style of the person they're imitating anyway, right? I'd be pretty miffed if someone said 'copy this sparkly face-up' if I were an artist who specialised in 'gothic' looks

As for scenario 2, I can't be the only person who'd actually be flattered, surely? >.>;; I mean, sure the work may not have been done by me, but I picked it and someone else loves it enough to imitate it so...

Or am I just dumb?

 

That to me is more like restoration--the old faceup was damaged and you're trying to return the doll to it's original condition. I just can't see anything wrong with that, and it's not like you're trying to copy someone else's doll's faceup as you owned the original.

 

I think it's obvious copying if a doll has a certain type of scar in a specific place. It's pretty easy to tell what has gone on in those kinds of curcumstances.

 

With scars... how so? O_O I mean, if a doll has a long thin scar across its cheek it could have been gotten in a hundred different ways. There's nothing to say that another doll's character couldn't have gotten the same scar in a different circumstance. I mean, fair enough if a doll has a skeletal wing shaped scar on his back caused by him being a fallen angel and his wings being burned into his flesh before disappearing... that's kind of specific >.> (although admittedly, again, with a million potential storylines it's unfair and impossible to say that no-one else ever can have a similar scar) But scars in the same place in general? I don't get it

 

I'd be flattered too, have been flattered in fact when people copied a makeup look I came up with or wanted to use my art as a tattoo. Faceups fall squarely into this category for me.
Now, if someone watched which dolls I bought, purchased the same ones and then copied the look to a T....I'd be mildly creeped out, haha. It's not so much an intellectual property issue as it is just plain weird.
Color schemes and techniques are up for grabs though, no faceup artist (or makeup artist in the human world) has rights to things like color choices.

 

If I'm going to commission someone for a face-up, I do it based on the fact that I like the style they use - be it the way they paint eyebrows, shade lips, or paint lashes. As anl artist, I understand how hard it is to work on something based purely on a description, and tend to make a collage of parts of other face-ups that I like. I'll get a few different images of lips, eyebrows, lashes, shadowing around the eyes, and things like that, and let the customizer go from there. I also add a brief description of other things, like the sort of feel I'd like for the face-up, or a specific expression.

When I do that, I'm not expecting whoever I'm commissioning to sit there and copy each image pixel by pixel on to my doll. I provide pictures so the customizer has a better idea of what I want, which makes it easier for both of us; the customizer has an easier time of figuring out WTF I'm asking for and, in the end, the result is much closer to my original idea than it may have been without visual refrences.

It has been said multiple times in the thread, but it is so, so hard to copy almost anything stroke-for-stroke, not just face-ups. Take comapny "default" face-ups, for example; there is a disclaimer provided by the company that, while they will do their best to reproduce the make-up shown in promo images, there are most definitely going to be subtle differences between what you see, and what you get.

That being said, however, it is still plainly obvious if someone has tried to directly copy another face-up artist's work, particularly if the face-up artist is well-known, and has a distinctive style. So, not only will you spend five or six hours attempting to copy a face-up, it's going to be obvious you did so. It just seems like a wasted effort to me. If having a specific face-up means that much to you, why not take the time and commission that specific artist? Even if you have to sit on a wait-list for a few months, you'll probably be much happier with what you get.​

 

I wonder how some people would view things on the idea of 'copying' the compant faceup. One of the dolls I received today, I adore the company faceup, however I'm allergic to the sealant so I do not want to dare get the company faceup, despite how it is near perfect for the character. What would be most faceup artist's reaction to being asked to near (but not exact, there would be colour/complete eye makeup differences) dupilcate a company faceup for someone like I whom cannot have it (and whom is useless at doing faceups herself). I see most replies are about replicating another faceup by an artist on the boards or redoing a company faceup because it is worn, but I've not got the faceup on this doll to start with.

 

What's not to get? If you have a doll with a specific green z shaped scar about his left eye and someone else does it, same size, everything matching up. It's obvious where they got the idea. To me that's copying. I didn't mention anything about 'how' they got it, I'm talking in terms of paint not character.
I never mentioned 'same place in general' you did. I said 'a certain type of scar in a specific place' i.e Green z shaped explanation. I'm sure if I had said scars in general a lot more people would have picked me up on it.

 

Well...I do my own face-ups. So I can really admit that normally I don't know where to start or what to do if I don't have a certain image I want on my dolls in my head.

So this is where photos of people or other dolls come in. Normally I take photos of dolls and use as reference for the eyebrows and eyelashes.

So it is hard to say that I copy other people's works. Because eyebrows and lashes are painted with brushes/colour pencils. Each person's pressure and stroke is different. Plus, you can't exactly duplicate the shape of the brows, the strokes of the brows and lashes from photos to the dolls you're painting unless you're either a robot or a photocopying machine. I'm serious. I've experimented after reading through 2 pages of this thread.

I wanted to know if it was possible. I totally forgot to take photos... So you guys have to just read and hopefully be happy with my explanation...

I tried copying the lip colour, eyebrows, lashes, and even eyeshadow from this image: http://shapestrong.com/doll/phai/letter4.jpg
by
http://www.denofangels.com/forums/showthread.php?t=281117

Or even this image: http://shapestrong.com/doll/azulen/azblossom1.jpg
by the same artist as the above. Regrettably, only the second image I was able to reproduce exactly onto my own doll. But the feel is different as mine is an AOD Gu.

I adore her face-ups and would constantly stare at the photos, but that doesn't mean I would want to copy hers. That'd be like saying I lack of creativity!

Anyway, this is my doll: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3641/3427699248_aa4c508a80.jpg?v=0 when he had his second face-up. It was entirely inspired by the first image. But I did not copy as it is obvious by the colouring and style. The brows...well...I tried copying, but you can see that it's very very hard to do so.

This is his face-up after I accidentally scratched the MSC off the second face-up : http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3596/3489557396_f4b03e065b.jpg?v=0 This face-up was inspired by some photos I saw online, but I had used not a single photo as reference.

And this, I tried to copy back the second face-up after I screwed his lips 2 times...: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3562/3489557490_efac8cc544.jpg?v=0 You can see how it is really hard to copy back the same style and colour even for the original artist.

And the pastels, I didn't mix or shave extra as for the first face-up I've already had left overs which managed to tide me all the way to the third face-up. The eyeshadow is much darker than the first and second as I didn't use enough grey in blushing over the top of the black.

So~ it is rather hard to copy the same face-up. Unless you spend days on a single face-up...maybe it might work. I didn't have the patience to try it in days though... A single face-up take me about 5~7 hours to complete... And when it was the copying, even longer. It neared 10 hours as the colours were almost not close enough and had to be re-mixed... 10 hours include waiting for the MSC to dry, mixing of colours, blushing, painting of individual hairs and using of computer software to tilt the photos according to how I tilted his head.

If anyone want me to make some progress shots of how I tried the copying...let me know... I have a blank modded elf head to test it on if anyone wants...but it would be wiped clean once the project has been done and he would get a fresh face-up unique to himself...or else he's gonna have an identity crisis......and there are other artists out there who have done face-ups for the same un-modded elf heads. I would need to ask them for permission though...see if they allow me to use a photo or 2 to copy for the sake of this project. Forgot to ask for testing the face-up for the one I did...but since he's been wiped clean and re-done with a face-up of my own, I figured there'd be no need...

Thanks for reading this wall of text...if anyone did read...

 

I have to fight on this! There are only so many types of scars, and only so many angles and places on a face to put them.

With the tens of thousands of dolls out there, with the thousands in and of themselves who have facial scars, there are going to be overlaps. I can't count how many dolls I've personally seen with the same over the eye scar. It's a certain aesthetic that MANY people like the look of. And it's usually the same type of scar.

You have to look at the pure AMOUNT of dollies out there to make that kind of accusation.

You know there's another doll with a VERY VERY ridiculously similar face to my Ingrid. Rainbow eye shadow and 3 pink stars on the cheek. Near the same size, same colours on the eyes, and little lines coming off the stars. I didn't see this doll until a few months after Ingrid had been done. Now, it would have been VERY easy to accuse this owner, the face up artist of hers, or the girl who did Ingrids face of being a copy cat. I wont lie, it made me hot for a second. I was MAD for a minute. But then I thought about it. The girl who owns this other doll, by the way she has her girl dressed, she obbviously was going for a candy cyber look, as was my intent with Ingrid. Within that genre, as with ALL genres or styles (goth, scene, fantasy, punk, anything really), there's a limiting factor on the look to keep it in that style you want. The colour scheme, as well as the objects on the cheek are things that are very common in the human portion of the style, why wouldn't they be in the dolls? Now, to me it's just obvious that me and this other girl liked the same thing aesthetically. And in this giant world of dolls it is bound to happen. Now, if I knew for sure one was copied, and I mean had hard proof, then I could rightly be mad.


I think the disclaiimers though are just to keep artists out of trouble. If they have that disclaimer up, then no one's going to PM them with "please I want this", and there's no temptation to just do the job and get the money. Nor does anyone else have the ability to accuse them of copying their work since it's claimed that they WILL NOT copy right there. Also, with artists accusing others of copying without proof of it, I think it's due to artists general sensitive ego. When you're an artist, it's hard to not feel like everything you do is extremely original. I mean, it comes from you and we're taught from the get go that we're all "special snowflakes". So when someone else tthinks the same way, aesthetically, and you see it, it's ok for you to get mad for a split second, but you need to calm down and not react until you HAVE proof that someone copied you.