Fan Dolls of...Other Dolls?

Change it enough to really make it your own, or it might always feel like someone elses. Just my two cents.

 

I think it's a tough situation. While the original owner of the doll that you really liked technically cannot "copyright" the design, this person must have invested a lot of time and energy and creativity in order to create a doll that captured your attention and imagination. From one doll-parent to another, I think that calls for some respect.

But on that note... I think most people would be OK if you go up to them and ask more about their doll. You can find out more about what went into the design and the creation of the doll so you'll be inspired yourself. You might also want to ask about technical stuff like "where did you get the wig?" or "Do you know where I can get a pattern of that costume?" The goal is not to exactly replicate the doll, but to get information so that you'll be able to create something of your own that still pays homage to something that has captured your imagination. I think most people should be fine with that.

 

I think my first reaction would be : O.o wft?
My dolls and their characters are a part of me, they were created out of my own taste and fangirlism for very OOC existing characters. The one that is unic, is a combination of my own favorite things.
My question would be: WHY?
And depending on the answer, I would be ok with it.
I'll gladly even help out with technical details, etc. But I would ask the person, that since she is copying my doll, she'd copy it whole, including the self made aspects of it.
I do things my own way and that person does the same at her the end, even if we both sew a red sweeter with steampunk motive, they won't be the same.
I see it comming, in the end, when all is done, I would be the one jealouse of that doll, because it looks better than my own. (in my own eyes)

On that note, I had a similar dillema. There is that artist doll, that I want to get, because it's based on a cetrain character that I like very much(mythologie/comic/movie/etc.). The artist herselve has created her own interpretation of that character, and will (hopefully soon) be selling the head she made, cast in resin. But for her "promotion" she used her own pic/Story/cutomization of the whole doll. Like a X company full set, that will only be selling the head, but to make it more appealing, showed it on a clothed body. (well reversed, it got so popular and she thought of selling the heade, but after officially making that decision, everything else done with that doll will be sort of promotional)
When asked by another interested party, to aquire that doll as a full set (wig, face up, clothes, body) the artist stated that she would not be selling it that way, mostly out of thechnical reasons.
My dillema was, that it was her vision of that character that I fell in love at first, hence why I want the head. I would be copying it, since I wanted to have that "full set" so to speak.
I have resolved it on my own, treating the doll as a "company full set", and since it's not aviable, I will recreat it myselve, doing it my way.
I will keep the name and recreat the aesthetics, adding my own character. If I remember to do so, I will credit the respective pictures to the original inspiration.

I supouse the situation is slightly different, since the OP was asking about a "private" doll. None the less, it is similar enough for my taste.

About the different view on that "copying = flattering" proverb, I think it is quite fitting. We learn by copying, and we copy that what we deam usefull/apropiate/in any way good for our own purpose. If we only keep copying, in the end we will only be a shadow and not advance. There are very few people who are that way and sathified with it. There is some point where we will put our own energie in that copying process, and make the process our own. The results will differe, and you will have created something inspired by :mon's cherry pie, the way uncle repairs his car, how the meighbore paints his fence and the way your math theacher holds the biro. That proces is called learning and growing. And you don't only learn the things someone goes out of his way to theach you specifically, you learn constantly with all senses.

Said that, taking a book, going to a copy mashine and print it out page by page, putting another cover pic on it (and/or change onther minor things) and selling it saiyng it is yours, is stealing.
Copying that book, and putting into your own library, or giving to others to read or even selling it, by not saing that you wrote it, but mentioning the author, is unauthorised copying which in our sociaty amonts to steeling.
How moral or inmoral, creative or uncreative, good or bad that is, lies in the eyes of the beholder.

On the off chance that anyone is interested in a very personal view (since we concluded that it all comes down to "personal morality" and be it said, the concept is still sometimes very hard to accept for me becuase of my own very individualistic and possesive nature/raising/character development): we are energie, and if matter is not, thoughts and ideas are for sure. Enegrie moves, expands and reaches out to others. What you thought out once, someone else is bound to have thought before you, and people will think of it in the future. If and how they act upon that though, is the importat aspect. But the thought has been there before anyone of us ever was. Based on that I do not agree on copyrighting Ideas. Your actual own, persona,l material interpretation is another matter. If you make it public in any way, it is bound to be "ispirational" to people who see/read/percive it, only the degree of "inspiration" differes and the acting on it does too.

 

If someone wanted to copy one of my dolls, I probably couldn't stop them. But I would be mightily pissed if they stole the CHARACTER I'd created to go along with the doll. Name, story, ect... The character is MINE. I thought it up, I created it, fleshed it out, wrote its personality and backstory and such ... intellectually, it is MY property. Nobody else has the right to take it for themselves. It's the same thing as plagiarism.

Not only is it disrespectful to the original owner to use the exact look and even the name of their doll, but it shows extreme lack of creativity. If you like a certain look, great. But change it up, make it your own. And for heaven's sake, find your own name for the doll. There are millions of them out there. Put a little effort into it and come up with your own concept for your doll. You'll probably appreciate it a lot more in the end.

 

I routinely include mold/eye/wig/etc info when I post photos of my dolls. If someone really wants to track down rare doll + expensive/hard-to-buy eyes + limited wig to recreate something, be my guest.

 

This is kind of a tough discussion. There seems to be a little grey area that is being overlooked...what with all the fan dolls that exist of "famous" characters out there already.

First of all, I understand that the original intent of the OP is not to steal the character. If that were the case, there would be no purpose to the thread, which was created because she was wondering if it would be ok to ask the original owner of said doll if she could make a fan doll.

If you're asking permission and are given it, there's no stealing involved anywhere. And you don't know if you don't ask.

Second, (pertaining to the question in the first post) I would absolutely want to be asked first if someone wanted to copy my doll. It shows respect, it's not creepy at all. If a person wanted to be creepy or a giant DB they wouldn't ask, they'd just do it. And then they wouldn't tell anyone, and pretend they came up with the design and character all on their own. Eventually someone out there would believe them and then it becomes stealing.

Back to the asking thing. Again, I think it's respectful to want to ask first, it shows that they understand that it's a touchy subject and care enough to not just go ahead and do whatever they want. I would think it was flattering tbh, that they liked what I did and came up with to want the same thing.

I'd say no of course, for the same reasons most touched on already (my characters are mine, years of developing, my property and trademark, I put a crapton of work into the dolls blah blah blah insert all the reasons here), but also because of the whole fan doll thing.

I have different opinions on fan dolls and even fan art than I think other people do. I actually feel guilty for having some of my own, because even though it's like paying tribute to that character it's also stealing - taking ownership of that character, and then changing the character to my vision instead of respecting and enjoying the creator/owners vision. And I do feel strongly about that, due to my own characters and story - which, I do actually use, and make money off of. They don't just exist in doll form in my mind (it's not just stealing a concept, it's a trademarked character). If someone else made a fan doll of my character, they would be changing it, making it their own....and I don't agree with that at all.

Especially since unlike Marvel (my fan dolls are X-Men), no one knows who the hell I am. You make a fan doll (or fan art) of Spiderman, and you can't take credit for that. It's obviously Spiderman and owned by Marvel and everyone who sees it is going to know. You make a fan doll of Alex (my OC) and forget to mention it's mine, and suddenly you're taking credit for him and his creation. And I'm not ok with it in any way or form. Especially the way the rest of the world views our hobby - with zero respect at all. Not for the work it takes to customize and style the dolls, not for the creation of the characters or anything. People feel like they can just take whatever photos they want and use them for anything, of course they'll have no problem stealing characters and looks.

Now obviously I can't even control or stop people from taking them from me, my stuff is posted on the internet. But if I am the only one posting my art and doll photos, I have slightly more control than if other people are doing it too, and I can maybe do something about it.....if it's like, third-hand theft it's over. I lose ownership. That might seem dramatic, but again, no one knows me, I'm not Marvel or Disney. If there's suddenly 150 Alex-clones out there who's going to care or believe mine was first?

So again, as for the original post: What would you do if someone came up to you and asked, "May I make your doll so that I have him, too?"
Personally, I would be flattered, and very happy that I was asked and that they didn't just do it....and I would politely ask the person not to.

Being asked first is usually what artists want, whether it's permission to use a character, art, photo, doll, whatever. So please don't feel like it's creepy or wrong. And please respect their answer if they say no.

 

There are some dolls out there that I, not gonna lie, wish I could get my hands on because their owners managed to create such perfect style, and eye/hair colour combos for them.
However, were I to recreate their dolls with the same mold and everything else, I just know it'd feel wrong. As in, it wouldn't feel like it's truly -my- doll.

 

I want to thank you, VampireAngel13, for you excellent post regarding this topic! You put it so well and I agree with everything you've said! I wanted to pluck out (and highlight) certain portions of your post that I feel especially drawn to and/or that I neglected to cover in my previous posts.

I did forget to bring up the huge gray area of the fact that there are fan dolls already out there of characters that aren't the creation of the doll's owner. And this is an important issue to bring up. I actually don't really have much of a problem with fan dolls of established and recognizable characters. The difference is that a fan doll of Harry Potter (for example) will be instantly recognized as being made to represent a character that belongs to J.K. Rowling. Sure, there might be the extremely rare person who (after having lived under a rock for years and years) has no idea who HP is, but the fact is that it would be pretty easy for them to find out and there's no possible way that the owner of that doll could take any credit at all for the character itself (only for the creation of a doll that merely represents that character).

My characters are not established and well-known to be mine. So if someone made a "fan doll" of my character, no one would know that the character is mine without being told. And honestly, even if the owner of the fan doll gave me credit when posting photos, that credit wouldn't always be noticed (some people don't read descriptions of posted photos). Another issue is that some of my dolls' characters started out with the doll (as inspiration, although some blossomed into much more afterward, and some were created before the doll's incarnation, but the doll helps to finalize the character's look), so if a person made a doll that looks exactly like my doll Luna, and also named that doll Luna, I would be rightfully annoyed/angry (not that I could do much about it).

I think the point where it turns from copying/stealing into "fan doll" is if the character is from a published work. If I wrote a full novel featuring my characters (it's still in the works... heh), and had that novel published, then I actually would no longer be bothered if someone made a fan doll of one of the characters from my novel. At that point, my novel is published and the characters and content in it have become officially copyrighted to me. I can point to the publish date and say "I am the original creator of this character and here's the proof." If I already have dolls to represent those characters, I would prefer if they came up with their own representation that is not a direct copy of my dolls, but it would still be easier to prove that my doll was the original.

I absolutely agree with VampireAngel13 that the OP should definitely ask before doing anything like a "fan doll". It shows that you respect the original creator. Then, if they say no, respect that decision. You can still make your own character that is similar to theirs, but do please try to make it your own and not a direct copy (including coming up with your own name). If they say yes, well then go for it! I originally said I might find it rude to be asked, but I think that depends on the phrasing the asker uses. And I'd much rather be asked politely, than for someone to just do it without consulting me first.

It's certainly true that ideas (simple ones) are easily replicated and that everything we see/read/witness becomes inspiration, but a complex idea (one that is made up of a combination of many simple ideas) is virtually impossible to fully replicate (by accident). I may have taken inspiration for the deities of the world I created for some of my dolls' characters from Greek mythology, but I made them my own, with different names and looks and abilities. Sure, those names might already exist somewhere else, and those looks might exist somewhere, and those abilities might exist somewhere else, but the combination of all of those elements is not really likely to exist somewhere else independently of me. (I hope that makes sense)

 

I think copying a doll entirely is a bit much, 'cause all dolls should be unique in their own special way! But it's not a bad thing if you're inspired by said doll and take certain influences from them!

 

Personally , I don't see a single thing wrong with it. I don't even see the point of needing permission. You are not making a recast. Even if you copy everything from the face and clothes all th way down to the name, you are still making your doll in the most appealing way to suit yourself. That's what people do with their dolls, whether they think it all up themselves or not.

If someone copied one of my dolls all the way down to the name, I wouldn't care. It doesn't taint my doll in any way shape or form. Even if they didn't ask and I found out later it still wouldn't be an issue. In fact, I'd probably be happy to have made a character that someone was so happy with that they would want their own.

The only thing that would be in bad taste or creepy is if the person who is copying would try to pass their doll off as the original.

 

If I had an OC doll that was copied, I don't think I would really care that much. My only concern would be that they would be represented entirely wrong, like being out of character. In that case, I would much prefer if I *wasn't* credited because already it wouldn't be my original character, especially if the other owner did something distasteful with it and then I wouldn't want to be associated with it anyways. Physical look wise, if the character was pretty ordinary looking, then you can't really blame someone for using that look, even if it's a little out there like white hair and red eyes because even that is common in this hobby. And if say my OC had a very fantasy/specific look with a fantastical face up and *that* was copied, I would only ask that they put "inspired by -" in the description somewhere. I don't want to be held accountable for anything that they do with the character. xD

 

So, in order for something to be considered wrong, it has to be on the same level as making a recast doll?

It's not nearly as bad as making (or purposely buying) a recast, I'll give you that, but are we talking merely buying the same sculpt, getting the same face-up, and buying the same clothes (annoying, but tolerable)... or are you giving someone the okay to copy everything about another person's doll, down the their doll's full name and character/back-story?

I'm going to assume, given your argument (and since I've found no strong evidence to the contrary), that your dolls' characters are very simple and that they more than likely only have a first name. And that's perfectly fine, because we all enjoy these dolls in our own way. However, if you spend comparatively little (if any) effort on coming up with your dolls' characters than I do on mine, or than many other doll owners spend on theirs (there's some pretty elaborate dolls out there that I know the owners would be pissed off if someone made a clone without asking or giving credit), what gives you the right to speak for me and tell someone that it's okay to copy my OCs? YOU may not care, but I most certainly do.

I will say it again, it's about respect (a term that a lot of people these days seem to have forgotten the meaning of). It's not about whether or not it would "taint" the original creator's doll (it wouldn't, until someone accuses the original owner of copying the copier, which actually could happen). It's about the fact that stealing is wrong, and stealing someone's OC is on par with plagiarism. You seem to show very little respect for creators of elaborate doll characters (since you seem to think it's okay to just take their hard work and make your own "version" of it without even asking first), so I'm guessing you don't realize just how offensive it would be to not even be asked first before someone deliberately made a clone of my OC doll, right down to their back-story & full name. No, it's not okay. Wanna use my doll as inspiration to make your doll (similar, but not the same) and come up with your own back-story and name? Great! I'm happy to help provide that inspiration! But the moment you use my OC's back-story and/or full name, then we have a problem.

 

Kelaria, I feel the same as you but on the other hand, all I have are dolls of characters I don't own and although I know hardly anyone has seen my post on copying someone else's character dolls in another thread, I feel more strongly protective of fan dolls because I work my hardest to keep them as true as possible out of respect. I dislike seeing many other dolls of the same characters not because I feel like I'm being copied but because they are almost always OOC and I feel that is extremely disrespectful. I suppose it's because I care more about the characters themselves than their looks or the dolls of them. If they were my own dolls, as I've said in my above post, I view it differently. If a doll is an exact copy of mine, personality and all, they will always have to wait for ME to specify how the character would react unless I've said somewhere how exactly the character is like or what they are likely to do and I would just see it as fan art. If they are different in anyway, I wouldn't want to be associated with it at all. But then again, maybe I only feel this way about my OCs being copied because I don't have any to be copied. I really understand your reasoning and I might feel the same way.

 

*shrugs* I still don't see anything wrong with it.
and yes, my dolls do have back stories, full names, and personalities. It still doesn't bother me. I see it no different than someone writing fan fiction for their own private use. Sure, if they start putting it out in the public, they had better give credit where credit is due, but if it's only for them, who does it effect?
For all you know, someone out there has already copied your dolls. There's not a single thing you can do about it.

Not to worry though, I'm personally not copying your dolls or any one else's, nor do I plan on it.

At no point did I say I was speaking for you or anyone else. I said that I personally didn't see anything wrong with it. We're allowed to have different opinions on things.

 

That's fine, quidam. You are free to have your own opinion, but you keep saying you don't see anything wrong with it. You may not, but most others who put effort into their OCs DO see something wrong with it. You are essentially giving the OK for people to copy because YOU think it's no big deal. Your opinion is your opinion, but don't use your opinion to sway someone to do something wrong because you "don't care" if they do it or not.

You're right, someone might have a copy of my, or anyone else's, doll right now. And you're right, I couldn't do anything about it. However, that doesn't make it okay, that doesn't make it right, and that doesn't mean I'm just going to sit around and say, "Oh well! Guess I'll just give people the go ahead to do whatever they please with my OCs!" I'm not going to sit around and worry about it all the time either, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't let it be known that it's NOT okay to plagiarize my OCs.

If someone DID have a copy of one of my OCs in doll-form, and they don't ever post photos of their copy online, it doesn't really hurt me, I may never know about it, and therefore it will likely never bother me. However, the fact that the copy exists, and there's potential for that person to decide to post photos of it, whether credit is given or not, is something I have a problem with. If they NEVER post photos, fine. I can live with that. However, if they eventually DO post photos, I'm not okay with that. Even if they give me credit as the original creator, I'm still not okay with it. As I said, not everyone will read the credit given, and I'm SO not okay with being accused of copying my own characters. Similar accusations have been leveled at original creators before; maybe not in the BJD hobby, but certainly in other creative endeavors.

 

My dolls are all Character dolls, so I don't care if people copy them. I also wouldn't say you 'never' will be able to buy the doll you love. I have bought dolls from friends and 1 specifically has kept his name, character, personality, etc... Another I kept the face-up, and brought out the character I always sort of saw in it. Another, I saw a doll I wanted to have the mold/sculpt was so pretty, and the person told me I would never find the doll. I did about a month later, despite it being an LE10. Even if the doll is the 'same' as another doll, they will end up with different personalities. I'm not saying dolls are real, but they do seem to have personalities based on differences of face-ups, how they are strung, how they stand, etc...

Someone also mentioned about keeping character dolls true to the 'character' they are based off of vs OOC. Problem with this is that people each have their own interpretation of the characters. Unless your only doing exactly what is existing in Canon for you stories/photos then you have to expand on the character using your own judgement which can/will differ from others. Being in the Harry Potter fandom, even the Creator JK Rowling has not been consistent with views on her own characters. You also have characters that are limited and defined to a very limited scope, and looking beyond that scope one can never know for sure what will happen. Again in Harry Potter, in the movie canon Luna and Neville seem to hook up at the end, from JK we know that they don't. Is it so far fetched to assume that maybe they at least dated? Or do we stick to the book canon only and keep them apart? So there when there is a conflict of canon, what do you do? Then there is the argument about canon only being what's in the books, and stuff JK just says isn't canon. Is pottermore canon or not? So saying someone's character is OOC is just an opinion, and simply not how you see the character. Sure there are some things that may be extremely OOC for a character to do, but there may be justification, or heck they are just having fun with their dolls, and who are we to judge how anyone plays with their own dolls.

So getting back on topic. Even with 'Canon' material a character doll can vary greatly. So basing a doll off of someone else's doll is also going to end up being different, because of the individual interpretations. So I say, go ahead. Admit you based your doll off someone else's, but from there your doll will be different because it's your doll.

 

vampireanneke, I expand on the character not just using my own judgement but by understanding the character's personality and growth, and using evidence throughout the series. I don't care if someone is a little off, sure that is just opinion. If they're close, great! If they're trying, great! But typically, I see characters so different that they are just not the same character anymore. THAT is disrespectful. In a particular example, I talk about a character who's life revolves around the art movement Superflat. I hate to see it when people throw the word around because they don't know it's a real thing, hadn't even bothered to look it up, and then have the character act like they would never act because there is clear evidence regarding that. For OOC dolls/characters, I just avoid looking at them. I would really like to see more fan dolls be more true to their characters.

 

Okay, I'll give my two cents.

I personally agree with quidam in that I, personally, wouldn't be upset over it. Imitation is the greatest form of flattery, and I would love to see that I'm inspiring others. If course, I only think this when it comes to aesthetics. I'm okay with people making a doll that looks like mine, but I would be a bit upset if they mimicked her personality, and very upset if they stole her backstory since the backstory is a story that I created myself, so it is my intellectual property. But other than that, I think people should live and do what makes them happy. This hobby is about having fun. ^_^

However, addressing the original question, I would recommend trying to inject some of your own creativity into your doll. I think mimicking the dolls style is an okay idea, but maybe come up with your own name. And definitely create your own back-story. As for asking "permission", I say just don't. I know a lot of people would consider that disrespectful, but I think it would only upset the person given how strongly people feel about their characters. You already stated that you would simply keep the doll to yourself, so I think it is fine. In all honestly, you don't really have to ask permission to make your doll look the way you want your doll to look. Do what makes you happy. Have fun with your dolls. ^_^

 

I was in a position where I saw a doll that is the same sculpt as my girl and she just happened to have the wig in the style and colored i wanted and I had been searching for a while. I asked the owner where the wig came from. She answered me and I intend to buy it because it is what I envision for my girl. I have not looked at her characters back story or tried to find the doll again, mainly worried that someone will say our dolls look to similar. My girl has her own story and had it before i ordered her. But some people can be funny about dolls and their similarities and i want to avoid any and all of that. That said a doll that looks similar is ok but i think the same name and character story would be crossing a line. If came across another doll that looked like my girl, had her name and backstory i would probably lose it cause that takes a lot of work and forethought. That's just my opinion on the subject.