Females as males? (Objectifying "males")

I'm glad you were amused. X3

In any case, I did say 'a little more' which considering how wildly unrealistic to real gay males yaoi (and yes, I know it's been dealt again and again that yaoi is not meant to be realistic or truthful to actual homosexuals, I'm just saying) is, isn't that much more realistic at all. And Kim is right, I have been reading yuri made by women for women, nothing terribly porny at all. I suppose it's shoujo-ai, more than anything else.

Perhaps that it seems like it's less stereotyped because apparently it's a still only a growing genre. Unlike yaoi, there's no long, terrible history of the weepy uke to plague a good story.

If anyone is curious, this is one of the stories I've read.

 

Well, I find this is a 'complicate' thread. Not complicate in the full word meaning, but complicate because there are many different opinions about this and too many causes to name here.
My answer is simple: 'cause I like androgynous boys -not only in dolls, but as people itself-. Why? Well, I don't know, but I think I could ask the same to those ones out there which like too manly/varonil boys, isn't it?
I think, it must be tolerated *and in fact it IS tolerated, and I'm happy to see this, sincerely*.
There is also the point of people, like me, which likes asian music (Japanese rock, for example), 'cause Japanese singers tend to be usually androgynous as well, and some of them look like girls. But it's not only about Japanese singers. For example, the famous young German band, Tokio Hotel. You just look at the singer: he looks like a girl. I don't see him as a girl, maybe cause I'm used to it, but I know a lot of people actually confuses him.


And now, even if it's actually Offtopic, but everyone (out of the topic) thinks my boy dolls are girls AND, I don't dress them as girls neither make them look femenine (Karyuu is quite the punk-like-type). None of them has wore a skirt NEVER (well, one of them did BUT he's been sold now, so he's no longer here), and they dress always with boots and pants. Then I wonder why do they think they're girls?

 

For the record, I don't think it's okay to objectify men. However, I do think it's fine to objectify objects.

And for me, that's what BJDs boil down to. The dolls themselves, the photographs, the text-based RPs and characters...they're all objects, some more tangible than others. Whatever we do with them ultimately doesn't have an impact on the Real World, so doll culture is--or, at least, can be--one of "anything goes." Some people might just like dressing their boy dolls in girl clothing. Some people might think it's interesting to explore/exploit taboo themes in doll stories. Others might have deeper psychological reasons that have already been gone over in this thread. Some people might just want to follow a trend, and some might not even realize this trend exists and do it to shock people. When it's all said and done, though, it just boils down to the fact that we're all just playing with dolls.

That said, I do like the flexibility dolls give in regards to cross-dressing and/or gender play. Since they can't protest when you dress them in clothes typically reserved for the opposite sex, you can dress them in what you think looks good on them rather than what society dictates a boy or girl should wear! Not only that, you can treat them any way you want, define their gender in accordance with or in spite of their...er, "biological" sex, and no one can or even should scold you for it! How cool is that?

 

Well, on many dollfies it's kind of hard to see if it's a boy or a girl at the beginning. [I mean, I acutally though that Bluefairys Olive was a boy when I first saw her._: Heh. Wrong] There's nothing wrong with crossdressing whatsoever, even if it can get too rough sometimes. And some dollbody designs look rather.. dunno. both sexual? What do you call it? Androgyn? o_o' Or something similar to that?
But dollfies do come from asia, and from manga and anime we know that boy-dress-as-a-girl and girl-dress-as-a-boy 's quite popular and such..a__a',

 

Going with the whole 'why girly boys' issue...I know that, personally, I find people who embody stereotypical traits of the opposite gender fascinating. I've always found a pretty man more interesting than a 'manly man' physically; just as I find 'handsom' women more interesting to look at than traditionally pretty ones. I think it's the juxtaposition of male/female together; the unexpectedness of it.

As for objectification...That's such a complicated issue. Could it be that women, (who make up the majority off the BJD community and who certainly are the main players in the yaoi scene), who are traditionally objectified feel empowered by objectifying characters who represent men who, for centuries, have been the ones DOING the objectification? Heheh...wow that sentence made my brain spin a bit. Hm...I don't know.

Interesting what Ba-chan said about objectifying objects though...

 

Why is it 'okay' to sexualize and/or objectify male characters/dolls? I don't know why it's considered acceptable to do so. For a while I thought that this was exclusively an online 'thing', the objectification of male dolls and characters, but to be honest with both you and myself, I've seen it in me and other girls. (Not so much in my guy friends. Wonder why?) I think that some of the reason why we justify this debasement to ourselves is the feminist struggle. It's not so much a problem these days, but since (relatively) recently women were considered lesser than men, perhaps it's a classic case of mini-revenge. Subconscious, I guess. "Well, women were objectified (and still are). Men don't get sexualized enough." So, maybe it escalates from there. Talk about overkill. Does that make sense?

Is objectifiying a feminized male different from objectifying a female? I don't think it's any different. Or, at least, it shouldn't be -- but the 'real world' oftentimes isn't as peachy perfect as we might wish it to be.

And where does the influence and desire to do so come from? Ugh, totally good question. I have no clue. T_T I think it might be a subconscious way for girls to 'empower' themselves in their own eyes. Maybe? >-< I have no idea.

 

I believe it is wrong to objectify anyone male or female. However, since we're talking about dolls portraying tragic characters, I think that as long as it is meant to tell a story we can learn from, and does not glorify the rape, but portrays it as the disgustingly horrific act that it is, I think it could be permissable.

 

i think maybe-the feminine-male dolls are a result (for some the female owners) of the owners wish to act out how they wish to act/and or look.
Let me break it down for you.
the dolls look, act, and seem very feminine and yet they are males
so they have the advantages that males have in our society, and yet the are female. This is what a lot (not all) femminist seem to want. they want to stay female, still get the advantages females get, but also get the same advantages as the men get in our society.
They also could be acting out their wish that all men could understand what a women goes through in certain situations.

sorry i'm not really that good at explaining things.

another reason that there are a lot of feminine male dolls with tragic pasts is that with a doll you are creating a personality and a story with no consequences- the possiblities are endless. So if you want your feminine-male doll to be a rape victim- who is going to stop you?

 

Do you think it could be the female's ideal man? In putting a feminine spin to the look, would it not make you assume(maybe incorrectly), that the underlying personality and emotions would be one with a females? To be understood by the opposite sex? Perhaps since most often the surface aesthetic is what is dealt with in dolls, the image that is desired to be projected is one of feminine understanding, targeting that desire that a lot of females have.

Then you have to look historically too. Males have been made to be "female like" for art in the past. Look at when females weren't allowed to act, sing, anything... There were cross dressed actors, there were the castrati! What more could be done to make a female of a young boy than to castrate him to preserve his voice? To make a true soprano out of him? Maybe there is a historical reason, or some nature that is engraved in our psyches? Granted that these things were often done by men in history...

 

Maybe for girls, objectifying men makes it less personal? It's okay because it's not the same worn-out story of a woman victimized. Now it's a male who goes through the prostituion, and the abuse, (or on a less drastic note) the pressures from society. I just like seeing boys squirm. I femmy boys.

 

I just thought of something. Many girls love femme boys/guys/men.
but if you think about it-the only difference(for most of the femme guys) between the femme guys and girls- is the gender.

so a lot of girls love femme guys-which are basicaly girls in guy bodies. does that make girls who love femme guys gay or bi?
would that mean that they might be in denile about thier own orientation?
or is the way that girls and guys think really that different?
if so-then does gender really matter?

again these questions don't apply to everyone. but i'm wondering what you guys think

 

I don't think it makes the girl gay/bi or in denial at all. I think it means that they appreciate the masculinity that has no need to macho itself out to prove itself. I think gender matters, even the most femme guys are men and they have that extra something(not the part in the pants ). I mean, I've been guilty of thinking some femme guys were gay when they were not, it's just like they are too good to be true or something. Having the best of both worlds...again not referring to sex...more their outlook and such...

 

I've gone in both directions in my BJD stories and backstories. I have male to female, felamle to male and asexual characters.

Slave Melyssa (Missy) is a former male, actually surgically de-sexe4d and reassigned to the female gender ny his/her Mistress, Lady Velvet.

Alexander goes the other way, being a Teen Tr4ends body re-engineered to have a weorking ball-jointed pen0r! Hisw backstory is that he was born gabrielle Hagen, and was/is a female to male transsexual, undergoing the transformations to become a boy.

I do gender play in my dolls and in my real life. I've crossdressed in nearly all my fantasy characters and my best cosplay is as Swan, from the film "Phantom of the Paradise" (Paul Williams).

It is a way for me to explore cross-genderal issues and societal norms.
When I finishe Alexander, I will be posting pics. I don't know what the rules are about dollieh pr0n, but I do have picture stories up about both Melysse and Alexander.

Swan

 

Well I am a lesbian and when I thought I was straight I always liked the very feminine men, like I had an obsession with Gackt and David Bowie type for a long time when I was young. It took a relationship with a more masculine bloke for me to realise that I like girls.

But then again saying that, I am a yaoi fanatic and enjoy more realistic gay male media as well. My doll's backstory is about a prince who is locked away by his father because he wears female clothes and has a confused gender identity. Thats something I've always wanted to explore because I'm a very feminine lesbian, I haven't encountered the more dyke-ish side.

I don't think gender really matters at all. I chose the doll I liked best and it wasn't really because he is a male doll. I like to make dresses and so he'll wear dresses. I don't think gender matters in the real world too, I can't stand the man vs. women thing. In fact I really wish I was bisexual because that is the ultimate 'gender doesn't matter' statement

 

I think we do the entire notion of sexuality a disfavor if we try to categorize it in dichotomies or dualisms. Female/male isn't necessarily a black/white issue; unresolved sexual characteristics at birth happen more frequently in the population than anybody would understand (in which case the physician usually speaks with the parents about which gender to resolve, and fixes the problem surgically).

Females are the gender who give birth -- meaning that they are not necessarily the so-called "weaker" gender. Two contractions in a pregnant male and we might be an extinct species!

We need to learn to celebrate androgyny, and I think that this tendency to bring out the feminine in our boys or the masculine in our girls is (1) an external manifestation of an internal struggle against stereotyping gender and gender traits; and (2) the real desire to get at what is most "attractive" or "compelling" in each gender and embody those things in one creature -- rather like the second post's reflection about the perfect human.

 

For the past while I've been trying to pick my first doll
and at this point I want a very feminine(sp?) boy
and for me its not because I have a thing agianst guys
or feel uncomfertable around them or even fear them
I like very butch guys the whole manly men thing but
honestly I have a thing agianst girls so i want a girly charater
thats not a girl
and lil gay boys are sooooooooooo cute :B *when they look like girls*
((if that makes any sence))

 

you've hit MY personality pretty well on the button, there. xD
girly-girl dolls are cute, but I doubt I'd ever want to own one.
(being a female myself): I have to admit I don't get along well with women IRL unless they're good friends; I guess that spills over into my BJD hobby.
I myself totally love feminine boy dolls, although I don't completely know why.. >.>?
maybe for the same reason guys usually seem to favor the female dolls?

 

I think there may be a sort of allure to create a character unlike yourself, erotic, and of body structure that's... taboo if you want to call it that. I don't know if I'd find myself doing so but I'm not offended either. If creative minds are thinking up unique dolls like these, I'm interested to see.

 

I personally have a thing for beautiful feminine men. My boy doll (dispite being a rent boy at one time) isn't girly, but I think my next boy will be
If women are allowed to be sexual in a masculine way (like Marlene Dietrich)why can't men be sexual in a feminine way.

 

My whole tirade about the rise of misandry I've seen in past years aside, this topic is interesting for me especially, considering....

Is it okay to objectify or feminise men? No way! Nor should women be masculinised! In fact, why are gender roles so bloody important in modern society? Because they still are, look around--they've just reversed into something like men being an accessory to match your shoes, in my observation.

I think that androgyny is not a statement, subconscious or otherwise, about 'feminising' or 'masculinising'--that's so polar. There are far more than two genders--which is why, I think, androgyny is so bruised from being shoved in various pigeon-holes.

Androgyny is its own thing, its own gender, if you will. Pronouns aside*, the concept is not a social statement, or a desire to attract attention. So it follows that being androgynous in the more literal sense is just who the doll is.

_________
*I know a few androgynes, and some prefer 'she', and some prefer 'he', and others don't care.