Females as males? (Objectifying "males")

Wow, you are like... Wonder Woman of psychological analysis...

I wonder why no one has rebutted the whole "it's all because of yaoi and recent trends!" argument by bringing up slash. You know, that romance fanfiction written about male characters from movies and tv shows by Western women that started around the seventies in underground zines. No, we're not all Japanophiles and yaoi fangirls; that type just has a huge representation on the board.

 

I've only read the first page, so please forgive me! >.<

But I think that women have a fascination with men who are expressly more "feminine". I recall reading somewhere that women trust men with feminine appearances more because their appearance makes them seem sensitive.

Adversely, a macho guy will seem like a "love-'em-and-leave-'em" to many women. So I think perhaps a female owner is creating her own version of what appeals to her and the ideal character of a man.

Also; dark pasts are SOOOO cool, guys. Didn't you know?!

...end sarcasm.

 

Dark pasts just gives 'em an excuse to be angsty. A *real* man doesn't need an excuse to be angsty! He just is!

 

Ah, I have thankfully not been witness to that sort of behavior, but I can see what you mean better now. I've actually noticed a lot of people starting to drop the yaoi/slash fandom (or at least claim to drop it) but I think what they're more concerned about is being associated with people like the ones you just described. Within fan circles, yaoi fans have started to develop a reputation as loud, girly, annoying, attention-seekers. I don't know if this is because most of them are like that or because those are the loudest and therefore most noticeable segments of the fan population.

I worry that this is going to start happening in the doll fandom as well as it increases in size and becomes more differentiated. If girls who dress their boys up as girls start getting stigmatized because there are some loud, obnoxious attention-seeking gits who feel like it's their god given right to shove their insecurities into everyone else's face by masquerading their dolls as wangsty cross-dressers with poorly done face-ups and cheesy canned back stories, then I worry that it will make it more difficult for people who want to put their boys in a dress for other reasons.

From a personal perspective, I do it because I think it's funny, cute, beautiful and it calms the demons raging within my soul. Mostly I'm just being playful with it. However, there are some people who do it because that's how their dolls want to dress or people who are willing to suspend gender rules because they think a dress is pretty, they don't have a girl doll, and they just want to put it on somebody and I mean, their boy doll could pass for female anyway, so why not? Then there are, as is becoming clearer the more I read this thread and hear stories from other people, those who dress their boys up as some kind of blaring signal for attention.

Getting back on topic, though, I suspect part of the problem, at least for some people, is a lack of fashion alternatives for male dolls. One of my friends plans to dress her Minifee boy in girl clothing primarily because she can't find any male clothes that suit her taste. From cruising the marketplace and looking at different websites, it seems like there exists only a very small amount of "normal" clothes, a lot of punk clothes, some suits, and a few froofy prince-like outfits, but this hardly encompasses the full range of potential masculine-wear. I think the only solution is to expand the fashion horizons for male dolls and I see this as a potential opportunity for making some cash. ( $_$) *rubs hands together*

Now if only I could learn how to sew...

--Nadia

 

Nadia, have I told you how much I love you today?
'Cause if I didn't, I love you sooo much. XD

 

That's how I am. I mean, he's cute enough to be a girl, so why not? I didn't like the girls enough to buy one, but I think some of the outfits they have are sooo cute. It's like having two dolls for the price of one I guess. But I agree there's not enough choice when it comes to boy clothes. Most are "costumes" or really formal attire. Nothing looks normal. Even pants have chains or something on them. I wish I could learn to sew too, though. I have a style I'm looking for and yet can't find it anywhere...

 

It's interesting. It's gotten past the point of objectifying males to the ones actually doing the objectifying. It IS true that a lot of those who proudly proclaim to "love yaoi" are loud and obnoxious. It's almost like those who aren't as attention-craving but do secretly enjoy the genre are made to feel ashamed to be associated with those types of people.

I also agree that a lot of this comes from the simple fact that we are presented with mostly feminine sculpts and feminine clothing.

 

I like yaoi, but not all yaoi. I don't like fan pairings for example when people pair male characters together just because of the sake of yaoi. I don't see my self as loud and obnoxious either.

I do think there is a trend with yaoi and gay couple, at least that's what I see, but I don't really care so much about it. Yes I think all the feminine boy doll cames out of the bishounen world, but I like bishounen so I don't really mind ^^

Do I mind that people explore their dolls in photos and stuff? Not really, what people do with their dolls are really not up to me to decide, and no one is getting hurt, that's the main part for me.

I have yet to be born characters that will be feminine and gay,. I think it's kind of cute, I really don't mind it and the look and character of the doll just turned out that way.

 

But you must admit, there is something fascinating about a "beautiful boy". There's a boy named Hank at my school, and he could definitely pass as a girl.

He really is that gorgeous.

 

As it seems to me, emasculating male characters is something of a power trip. Nothing crazy, but it's got the same kind of appeal that a girl in a maid or waitress outfit might have to a guy. It gives you something you are 'master' over-- not in a bad way, but as in you're giving the orders, and you're responsible for this person. You are the one who takes care of their well being.

It's easier to feel that way over an emasculated character than a strong, powerful one. And for dolls, they're already small and somewhat childlike, so it's more natural that people would want to put them in roles that seem more fitting, I think. It would seem a little strange to cradle a muscled barbarian king in your arms than a waify boy in girl's clothing, right? XD;;

I don't see anything wrong with it, or terribly unnatural.

On the other hand, loud obnoxious yaoi-obsessed girls really aggravate the hell out of me -_-#;

 

Wordy McWord. I avoid yaoi panels at anime cons because I value my hearing and prefer more content to my discussions than "Naruto/Sasuke sucks! Light/L OTP OMG!!!!!" But then, I am old and crabby and remember the pre-yaoi days of slash. Speaking of which, I was on a panel at last year's WisCon that the moderator (a living breathing stereotype of a New York editor!) put together because she wanted to understand the appeal of slash, which was kind of funny in retrospect. I mean, it's a fetish, pure and simple. Would she have bothered to ask a bunch of leathermen why they like to dress up in dead cows and play with whips?

EDIT: Followed a quote and read Nadiaff's post. I'm impressed; well-analyzed and excellently worded!

 

I have a friend who was around in the pre-yaoi days. Waaaaay before. She says she felt like such a freak. She wanted to ask, "Am I the only one that's thinking about this?!" She says it's so different now where girls can just pick up manga at a bookstore or look at things online. I think girls are just excited because it's something new. Yaoi hasn't been around here as much as Japan, so you don't see as many obsessed fans in Japan, though there are some. I think once yaoi has been around for a while, the girls will settle down.

I remember back when I was twelve and saw my first yaoi. It was actually at the library and I thought Gravitation was about a band, not two guys getting it on. I turned so red and hid it because I was scared someone would find what I had checked out and tell my mom. Now that sort of thing doesn't even phase me. Though, I still don't like Gravitation. It's all about FAKE anyway. xD

 

I have a character who dresses like a girl because he is a street walker. He found he got more customers that way, and more customers meant more money which meant he could care for his blind twin brother better. No living on the streets, but a real apartment! To him, he was still a guy and dressed like one outside of "work."

There is more to his backstory than just that, but that's why he dresses like a girl.

 

Simply: Because.

I have a male character, Nigel, who was tortured sexually. However, his appearance is somewhat feminine, but not by his choice. He'd appear much more masculine if he could; it's a small amount of self-loathing. He is masculine, though rather plain in some aspects. However, some of my female characters are sexually tormented as well. I fail to see this 'trend'- there are female characters who are thusly placed in such positions as well.

Also, some men are simply girly, and this often has nothing to do with their sexuality. Straight men can be girly or crossdressers.

And for the matter of "yaoi fan"- it is true I have gay male characters. However, for me, it is a matter of characterization and not what is attractive to me or otherwise. I am a straight woman but I have gay female characters, as well as gay male characters, as well as straight characters of both genders- not to mention a few bisexual or asexual ones. I agree that many do it for attention but it is painful to imagine that it's assumed people would feel that's the sole reason why a character is gay.

 

I think its so you can better relate to the character (if creator/owner is female...) because then the 'boy/man' is more like them, it creates a psychological/mental feeling of security and safeness?

Haha, I'm not quite sure actually, it sometimes frightens me how i don't mind, because I think I'm "supposed" to be disapproving if they were real. BUT because they aren't, it's okay... And already far too used to it~

 

I may, or may not be totally on the right track when I say this, but my opinion of it seems to be along the lines of many.

I personally, have a friend (female) who was put in a sexual situation when she was much too young by an older (male) family member. She instantly withdrew from men in fear that they were going to harm her. Although she claims to be bisexual, she clearly would prefer a woman over a man. She also draws many male characters in very feminine forms, to the point of me having to ask the gender before I compliment on the picture.

Now, I'm not saying or even trying to imply that the reason people make "Girly men" is because of their past, or even their personal thoughts on their sexuality. But I think that men are/were put into such high roles that to knock them down into a woman's pain is what psychologically is happening.

Think about it this way, a long time ago women had very little rights. The society was based around men, and men were put into a higher role than women. And even now in some places, a woman who is raped is the one being punished while the men who raped her are getting off freely.

My personal thoughts on all of this simply boils down to, I think that the male role in society (now or in the past) has somehow made an idea in some women's (and possibly men's) brains that a woman is weaker than a man. So to put a man (doll) into a weak situation would be unheard of.

(It's almost like saying to your husband after having a baby "You wouldn't even know what to do if you were pregnant and having a child.") Because the majority of us could say "My husband would be panicking, crying, or begging for help" because they would have been put into a woman's role. Which I'm sure must also go for the men too, in some form or fashion.

So to put the male doll into a female problem (rape being #1) would be an odd situation. (yes, rape does happen to men, I am aware of that ) But more often you hear how a woman was raped

But...yep...there's my opinion. I just went a little blank...

 

sorry i only read the firt page!(jeje)
i really dont see why people would like for their dolls to go thrue the horrible expirience of being rape (that sounds wierd!)but its just me

if i were to be a guy (IF) and this dude molested me as a child (i am only 15 i dont have much o a history) i will probably become EMO and nt talk to anyone...anyone but i will never become a feminine guy cause that will attrected more guys!!!

i personally put a skirt on my boy because he looks adorable wth it and it makes me feel like i am bigger caus ehe is flat chested! (i am way to flat chested!)
another reason i can think of is that theres is no way in this side of the world that i can find a guy with the face of an um.....ducan or a chiwoo i mean god there to beautiful to be even considered manly(ja ja) but do you see what i am saying??
or.. i have a kd ARU and he is to pretty and if i were to dress up as a guy people woud be like "your so man to dress HER up with boy clothes" even i would think that so i kinda dress him up in between for me to be satisfied and once in a while i dress him up wih skirt (a long one!)

and its shust the real world we are putting real word backgrounds into our dolls because we dont own barbies any more and we are not seven anymore(well maybe just act like one!)
when i as i kid i used to put my barbies as little poor girl who ended up being princesses or being he most popular girl in school who had everything! But i am 15 now and there people wo are older than me now and acctuelly live away from thir parents taking care of themselves!

 

woops my bad!!(jeje) i feel like an idiot now!

 

Ok...I haven't read this whole thread, I'm sorry...it's just gotten too long...but I wanted to put in my two cents anyway...^^;

I'm just going to say now: I in no way, shape, form, fashion, mean anything "degrading", "mean", or "insulting" towards anyone, may they be an individual or a group of people. I've seen a lot of people get angry for things that someone means to be harmless because it's difficult to communicate properly over a keyboard. I just want to say that I'm merely stating a personal opinion and I pray that I do not offend anyone. ^^;

Ok so, in the original post, it was said that many boy dolls, who are indeed boys, are protrayed in very girly ways and often sexualized like traditional "pin-up girls". Pin-ups show pretty girls...so I guess some females unconsciencely think "hey, if a guy can look at a poster like that of a pretty girl, why can't I do the same with an attractive guy?" And they go ahead and make their own pin-ups...

As for boys dressed as girls in these pictures...well...girls like wearing pretty dresses, for the reason they enjoy looking at them. So why not make your pretty boy even prettier by putting him in the clothes you enjoy most?

That's my reasoning for it anyway...^^;


::Edit::
Angelesk, I totally agree about the traditionally more dominant male role versus the more traditionally passive female. This isn't so much the case anymore because times have changed, and are still changing, but it was in the past...and I think this is a response due to that centuries long role. (I forgot to mention that before, sorry...^^; )

 

I can't really speak for why other people do, but I know my reasons so I can tell you how I work. I don't have a boy with girl parts and he isn't interested in being a girl, but he does wear some girls clothes and he is rather girly. So here goes.

I'm a girl who is a little bi. I like girls and I love guys. I think girls are pretty and beautiful and I prefer pretty men to muscley men. I love the Asians because they have a slightly feminine look already, but I like the look of girls better than the look of men.

Now. My first doll is a girl. I prefer the clothing culture defines as for women so it seemed the obvious choice. My girl does wear dresses, but she has her own ideas about things and is a bit more tomboy so no frills really....My boy......while he's not wearing petticoats and ribbons is getting Kimono tops and things like that and I'm looking into getting a new Dollzone boy. A Shoyo head, because I want big eyes and pouty lips to wear the occasional frilly lolita dress, but I don't see him wearing it all the time. I'm not really sure why I want a boy to wear them, but I do.....I think in the last few years I've gotten more into the idea with my music choices I guess. I love the whole Japanese indy 'Visual Kei' scene so that helps too I'm sure....