Females as males? (Objectifying "males")

Girl here. I like my men to be manly. And my girls to be girly. I do like longer hair on guys, but the overall look of him being a man is better.
Bro, I totally have wondered the same thing time and time again.

 

Could be part of it, Carlton & Serena. Could be that many females here in this scene have had a bellyful of the pressures to don the trappings of traditional femininity, from babyhood onward, and think it's more fun if THEY don't have to wear it themselves. Could be that many people feel that femininity may be nice to look at, but a pain in the ass to actually go through.

Could also be that the skimpy rock-star clothes simply look better on boys than girls, because so many of them seem clearly designed for people without any tits or hips to get in the way.

 

Speaking as someone who owned a girl-to-boy doll, conscious objectification had nothing to do with it. Honestly, I can't tell you why I like curvy, feminine male dolls - I just do. Curves and softer body shapes appeal to me. There was a very brief period where I wanted a male doll who was essentially a female with boy-bits, but I got over that relatively quickly. Now, I'd rather just get a girl to wear dresses.

I'm not comfortable with rape or objectification, and honestly, I'm a little perturbed at the 'yaoi' trend of super-feminine boys who seem to only exist as a function of rape fantasies. I mean, to each their own, but I've met way too many 'yaoi fangirls' with skewed and bizarre ideas about gay relationships that stemmed from manga and fanfiction and fanart.

That's possibly why I grew away from wanting so many super-feminine boy dolls: the trend in this hobby for this type of doll is going in a direction I'm not comfortable with.

On a completely random note: modified Luts girl-to-boy bodies have incredible balance @___@ Without boobs, all the weight is in the butt - low center of gravity makes them easier to stand. And Henry (who was on a girl-to-boy body) was much more cuddly than any other boy SD-sized doll I've owned/played with.

 

I find this thread to be a GIANT generalization o.o;;! I have seen many "feminine" boys who are not objectified - and instead are cutesy, or happy go lucky... Though it is interesting to see the stereotype of the sluty girly boy.

Many have talked about demasculanizing - and having the power to do that being appealing... this makes some pretty broad generalizations that a male is not slender, curvy, and good looking in dresses... There ARE men who look fall into that clasification-and does that make them less men because of it? I don't think so -.-;;!

As a guy who is constantly mistake for a girl (not in real life, but simply online), I guess I sympathize with these "girly" dolls, and I find it upsetting that there existance is looked at as a "problem."

I guess I'm just ranting now... so sorry, but I think that people need to have more sensativity when approaching these issues-especially when they're making generalizations x.x;;!

 

Here is my opinion. Please, no one take offense.

Girly guys are over done. The fascination girls (and some guys) have with pretty boys and gay couples is confusing to me, and after attending many conventions and having the 'yaoi' genre shoved in my face, I must admit I am tired of it. I'm not saying every fan of yaoi does this, and I have absolutely no problems with gay couples at all (I support gay couples!) it's just..... everywhere. I love yuri and straight pairings of dolls, but I don't go around forcing it on people.

And what's the deal with a girl being boyish or 'butch' considered ugly? I am a girl, and I've always been a tomboy (sometimes mistaken for a boy because of my short hair and tall stature), and I don't think I'm ugly.

I guess that (and please excuse my venting on the subject) I'm really waiting for both 'yaoi' and 'yuri' genres to obtain an equal standing while maintaining some form of maturity amoung fans.


I think that there is a definate beauty in both the male and female figure, and whatever a person likes best is their right. There is nothing wrong with crossdressing, but there is a time and a place to express this joy. Not everyone wants to know about it, and I think that is the real issue.

And, yes, I think that a boyish girl is adorable. I prefer a boyish girl with a girly girly compared to two girly girls sucking face in a jumbled mess of curls. Lol.

 

I'm kind of sick of seeing this topic analysed in fandom. Any fandom. As if it's impossible to find someone attractive without being possessive of them or attempting to knock them down until they're a more manageable size. Some women just like more traditionally-considered 'feminine' men, but that's not the deal here. People have their individual tastes and I happen to find both 'camps' equally attractive, or at least attractive on an individual basis. Feminising is not necessarily objectifying, not is masculinising a doll freeing it from that. Some doll types are overdone, and you're going to get that set of tropes centered around a feminine male in any media you choose, if slightly modified from page to screen to anime to the world of dolls.

Personally, I'd LOVE to see some rough-and-tumble girls, not just cute tomboys. Girl dolls who are- okay, WOMEN. Not just in build but really capable of shaking things up. It's not just to blame on the sculpts. Things are starting to get a little bishonen-heavy in the doll community and it'd be nice to see a change. Actually meeting yuri fans (outside of friends and immediate family) at Anime Detour this year, most of them have personal tastes in the characters they like too. It's not just saintly, long suffering yuri fans and those irritating swarming yaoi fans, or vice versa. If people encounter boy dolls as their first dolls, or see that their friends do, it's quite likely they'll seek out male dolls first, rather than girls for contrast. Things in fandom could have panned out much, much differently, and I don't think it's all to do with the sexual orientation of the dolls' human owners. They're already talking about that elsewhere on Dolly Debate, check it out.

Just when you think you're done with bishonen, here comes Johan Liebert the lovely psychopath. Just when you think you've officially had enough of big, sweaty men with facial hair grunting all over the place here comes Big Boss, or Jayne Cobb, or whoever I'll be swooning over next. (Admittedly, the two have little in common besides being in my DeviantArt favourites... but they're difficult to mistake for women. Even from a long way away.) It's all down to personal taste, but even when I'm 'into' one extreme or another I can still see where it has merit. Just like I can find both extremely feminine girls and tomboys attractive, or just... plain... girls. No modifiers. It's all down to your aesthetic sensibilities, and there isn't much right and wrong when it comes to taste in art, but it'd be nice. It's your doll, do what you want, but if the portions of doll fandom that I *know* want less feminised male dolls, or at least dolls with a different set of character attributes attached, had their fair showing, maybe we wouldn't even be having this argument. Doll diversity is great. Push the limits of your imagination and come up with... I don't care, a sexy mutant tree stump. BJD is a medium that allows for a lot, it'd be nice to see people stretching that.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing more yuri as well (I like both yaoi and yuri, though I tend to be pickier about what I like when it comes to yuri). However, I have a problem with pronouncements that girly guys or that yaoi in general is overdone and not because I am an offended yaoi fan, lol. I realize that it's very popular in this community, but as long as people are simply following their interests things are neither overdone or underdone. Perhaps I feel this way because I've never cared what other people were into--whether relatively unheard of or popular, I like what I like. If a lot of people are into yaoi, great. If a lot of people are into het or yuri that's fine too. All that matters is that I'm happy with my dolls, and I really believe that people should do what they enjoy doing with their dolls no matter what other people are doing. Obnoxious fans (and all areas of interest seem to have them) are a whole nother matter entirely, and I'm not sure there's anything anyone can do about that other than just ignore them and hope they grow out of it (there are times when being oblivious can be a blessing ).

 

I think that actually CAN be the case sometimes. Because my personality and mannerisms are somewhat "manly" compared to most females (I was raised by my brother and father and am very much a tomboy) I tend to be more attracted to more femine men to sort of balance myself out. I didn't choose to be that way, that's just how it works out.

Also, I did encounter a boy BJD first but I was introduced to the female Pullip before. My preference quickly shifted after I saw the boys because I guess I relate to boys more (?) and perhaps find them cuter in general.

As for the yuri/yaoi thing, I wouldn't concider myself a fan of either, but I don't dislike them. It just depends. Rather than focusing on "male" and "female" or being "girly" I tend to see my preference as being toward a more androgynous look. Could be a boy or girl. I find the look cute, and practical. If I want to dress up my doll in a dress or a suit, they can go either way.

I don't really see it as "objectifying" men per say, but I do have to point out that woman have been objectified for such a long time, men should get their turn. XD Girls should get to oogle too.

 

When I was younger I REALLY wanted to be a boy, and being a young girl I was expected to do the traditional girlie things, play with dolls, wear dresses...ext. So for me having male doll, in a way, personifies or rather it embodies my desire to be a boy.
I never objectify any of my characters male or female, personally I think it's insulting and distasteful. I would never want it to happen to me so why would I want it apart of something I care for and am creating.
Now that's not to say abuse in a storytelling sense is not valid, because it is, it's just that most of the time it feels like it's done just because it's easy and it moves the story along faster.

 

As a person prone to mood swings myself, I'm attracted to people whose emotional state is pretty solid and steady. My doll characters are a lot more responsible than I'll ever be, at least right now. I do think that people are in some ways attracted to their opposite :3
I know the first BJD I saw was a girl, and I still really do adore the make of doll that was. But on the whole, ordinary people don't define themselves as 'manly' or 'feminine' all that much unless they're trying too hard. The mind doesn't really have a gender, our ways of thinking are reinforced by how we're raised but aside from issues of biology I don't think people are 100 percent feminine in manner or 100 percent masculine. One of my friends is a (debatably crossdressing) androgyne, so I find it pretty easy to believe that people aren't always one or the other. We all know people who are really girly, people who are really masculine, and people who are neither. People don't come to be one extreme or the other, it's not really realistic unless it's in some way an act.

I think it's OK for both guys and girls to 'oogle' as you said as long as it's still managing to be respectful, even to a doll. Dolls are supposedly this primarily feminine realm, and since there are boy dolls it's no surprise to me that people are making them into their fantasy character.

 

I like both. Men who lookes like real manly man (with beard and and even little crinkles when they laugh ) and the soft-men.
It's the same with girls. I like tough women like Integra Hellsing and the cute ones too.

I would be really happy when it would be more balanced.

 

Well, I don't know about anyone else, but personally I find butch or masculine women to be extremely beautiful and attractive.


Likewise I find pretty and feminine men extremely beautiful and attractive... In short I have always been fascinated with androgynity and looking opposite of what is expected.

I love yaoi (goodness I don't really like that term, I grew up with calling it slash) and yuri just the same. Het I do find to be quite boring actually, and I don't mind the new explosion of interest girls have gotten in yaoi, even if some of it gets overdone. It's healthy to discover and unfold. Boys have happily been admiring girl on girl for ages, so why not boy on boy?

We are attracted to what is pretty, these dolls are our image of that, and feminine features are often prettier than your everyday muscular man. A man is considered handsome, and a female is considered pretty. Sometimes it's nice to switch sides. Pretty boys are extremely pretty and handsome girls are extremely handsome. It's all in the individual style.

I'm really tired of the overdone and classy pretty girl, but I don't go around calling it a problem in the fandom :/


Edit:

Ara*, I agree totally with you. Manly men can be very attractive, and so can feminine and graceful men be too(wonky sentence). They have each their thing you know?

And Integra, haha

 

Yeah, totally * _*
It always depends on how it fits to the person; in Manga/Anime sadly the most characters look young and pretty, even when they are supposed to be old D:

I would die for an own Integra doll *__*
Sadly Minimees aren't available with tan skin, I would start a group order and I'm sure many people would like to have one






and a Anderson. And Maxwell. And Rip + Zooling.

 

I know right D: I think it's just easier (and aesthetically more pleasing) to have them long legged, slim and pretty. The same with the girls you know, even those who are supposed to be fat, are thin with small hips and somewhat of a bust. That's why I like Arakawa's manga style, she draw MEN XD

And man oh man I'd KILL for an Integra doll, I swear. I hadn't even thought of the idea.

And, yay for not being the only Anderson fan anymore

Err, topic wise you make a good point. These dolls have a lot in common with anime and manga aesthetics, and there feminine men have been the fashion for a long time. Perhaps it has something to do with many south Asian men being less "square" (to call it something) than what we're used to here in the west? Thus the molds are naturally quite feminine or boyish as it is, and makes for an excellent way to channel that desire to create something interesting and pretty.

Personally, I don’t even know why it is an issue…

 

I agre with Kaiser: I like my girls to be very girl like and my guys to be masculine. One of my character is a gay character and he is very masculine. I do think it is okay to do dress and mod your dolls whatever way you want. I appreciate the diverse aspects of the dolls...

 

Or old people (as example teachers) looking like super models and teenagers XD'
I mean "WTF?", they are supposed to be old, why don't they look like that?

When I thought about my first doll I wanted a Integra one
And I was SO upset, because I wasn't able to find a women which looks like women and not a hyper-cute girl with BIG eyes and a thin mouth D:

When I saw Dollzones Yuu (-> http://www.doll-zone.com/showproduct.asp?id=144 ) my first thought was "ZOMG, Integra face!", but I'm not sure if the tan-head is available alone.

Sadly Minimee Orders are without tan-skin

A Anderson with the scar, the beard, standing here....Jesus, it's getting hot in here XD


I think a Anderson Doll would be, as Minimee Order, much easier to get. His skin is not SO dark as Integra's.

I think that's the reason, yeah. In Manga/Anime it's much more common having a slim body, big eyes and to look as perfect as possible. It's the same with dolls. Nearly nobody wants a unperfect doll, and for most people (as example) being old makes you unperfect.


But, and that makes me really confuse, girls have too look cute and pretty (I think that's the same in every country) and that's why most dolls look like that.

But a man is normally supposed to be strong (you know, the old picture you have from a man XD), why are the boys then looking like girls? It's not only in Japan like that, many people seems to like female looking boys more than...REAL MEN XD'

 

in my case, many of my interests are traditionally male ( computers, videogames, maths, designing machines ) so most of my friends are male - it certainly didn't help that I thought the girly topics of lipgloss, clothes and boys were pretty boring in comparison, so eventually the values of my group rubbed off on me, but reversed, due to my preferring the opposite gender to most of my social group- I'm attracted to females with masculine traits such as being larger built and muscular, and thin, effeminate males. :P
Also, regarding the sexualization- most pinups and other things meant to show desirableness, have elements of passivity, and willing-to-pleas-ness (who wants to fantasize about someone who doesn't look like they'd play along?) - if these are traditionally female traits, it is only because society is mostly patriarchal, so women, having less power, are the ones normally objectified.
in some cases, it is a reflection of the owner's real preferences, since not everyone will be so lucky as to have the person they like happen to be of the body type they prefer as well as the right personality and interests.
That, and most people find female faces nicer to look at than male ones :P though, personally, I like stronger features on my men

 

Hmm, I doubt anyone will read this... considering the number of replies already written... oh well.

I think, in a way, the male body is a more conveinent medium for certain actions -or positions, or revealing clothes- than a female body is, at least in a politically correct, still slightly patriarical world. That sounds like an over-used explanation, but it makes sense. If -to use fanfiction as an example- a female character was constantly wearing ridiculously revealing clothes, or was abused, or any other of the common ones, then it would be more uncomfortable for women -the primary romantic fanfic writers and BJD enthusiasts- since these things DO happen, and are well known. It would also be sort of continuing with the real life 'woman needs saving' situations that people believe.

Using a male reverses that. No matter how feminine, or weak, or pretty, or gay, it would still be a man, and therefore a reverse of classic roles. Which is weirdly comforting.

(I have a couple of story characters who are female in every respect except for actual gender. And I'm allowed to make them pretty and clothing obsessed and in need of saving, because by makeing them technically male, I'm not perpetuating the female stereotypes. At least that's what I think my subconcious is doing. I have no idea why my characters all turn male when it isn't necessary)

 

I think I agree with you. At least peripherally

If a female character is put into difficult situations it can be too 'damsel in distress' for the female audience to accept. If you put a man in the same situation, the dynamic changes. I think this is why so many people like hurt/comfort slashfic. It forces a man into the realm of expressing his emotions, which is usually the feminine domain, and it builds his character in a way that traditional masculine domains might not do.

It has been shown time and again that female audiences prefer to watch/read more emotionally engaged scenes than action orientated ones. You will find that more women will like Supernatural episodes like 'In My Time of Dying', and more men will like episodes like 'Route 666.' This is because IMToD is so emotionally orientated, it appeals more to the feminine desire to fit all the pieces of the psychic-puzzle, than the male desire to fit all the pieces of the physical-puzzle. Female audiences want to know more about how the characters tick and male audiences want to know more about how the characters deal with their present situation.

My male doll, Zeelzaroth, isn't gay, but neither is he straight as a dye. He's a demon, so his personality and sexuality is fluid, he can be "Mr Sensitive" one moment and "Mr Badass" the next because demons are like that, they keep us on our toes With his character I'm not trying to bow down to any archetypes or be strict with his appearance or mannerisms.

I always thought my MSD, Gwenllian, was a sweet-innocent, but when Zee arrived in the house she developed an attitude which I really love. I did wonder if she would be a damsel in distress when Zee arrived, but no!

I'm not a big fan of girly yaoi, but I do like yuri. I find that I am more picky about what I will read in the yuri genre than yaoi, perhaps because I am a girl and I know what girls are like, so something that reads out of character for a girl, just doesn't work for me. I would be just as picky about yuri BJD photostories!