Females as males? (Objectifying "males")

I still think that men value emotional interaction too. Women have just been kind of cultivated to think otherwise. I know I *love* my action movies, as much as any guy out there, and I appreciate the mix of action and emotion that's typically used to try to appeal to both. Any good series has some of both- even romance novels have swordfights and showdowns and such. It's nice to use dolls to reflect how i think gender roles are or should be. Men can be sensitive, women can be afraid of commitment. Little girls can be violent and unrestrainable, little boys can be innocent and wholesome. It's like fiction, I show what I want to see.

 

Wait a second, I was reading up to about... the fourth comment grouping and have to make a statement about this.

Someone brought up the BDSM thing into a clearer light, and the automatic responce from posters -from the comments I've seen so far- is generally "Yes, yes, it's available, but it's definately not all that we've got." While this is true, what I mean is that it's a constant defence against that kind of stuff, repeatedly pointing out that's it's only a small amount, etc etc.

I think this is looking at it in the wrong kind of way. Yes, kink isn't widely enjoyed by lots of people, but that doesn't mean it should be treated the same way as cruelty and rape. Emotionally speaking, they are completely different. In these kinds of situations, you have to remember that in the real life kink communities, it's the emotion and thought behind the actions that are considered extremely important. If one person is behaving wrongly, they're removed from the community. In regular sexual interactions, this is less likely the case. A sexually violent person may still be accepted because it's only a sexual thing. (did that make sense? or go anywhere?)

Um, this is getting OT so I'm just saying that this topic isn't about seeing girly-boys. It's about the thought behind them, why people do it, and whether it's wrong or right or whatever. And talking blandly about seeing kink or BDSM is completely different to the "why" and the "right or wrong" of it.

It's an insult to completely normal, interesting people with unusually varied interests to say that dolly kink is wrong without knowing the mental backstory, in exactly the same way as talking about feminine male doll enthusiasts, which is the point of the topic, anyway.

Sorry for going off topic, and sounding a little aggressive, especially about a subject I don't have a personal interest in, but I feel like I have to defend it.

 

I've ploughed through most of this thread and I'm having difficulty remembering the difference between yaoi and yuri and bishonen etc. Not all doll collectors come to bjds through manga or anime so the reasons which may be true for those who do, may not apply to those who don't. My introduction to sexy/sexualised images of men was the work of Robert Mapplethorpe most of which are not particularly feminised.

My personal thoughts... I like seeing people who aren't afraid to wear their clothes and hair the way they want to, who have the confidence to step outside the traditionally accepted 'male' and 'female' stereotypes. That kind of confidence is often sexy and attractive, at least to me. I like fictional characters who exhibit those qualities, including dolls. I don't think I am the only one...Assumptions are not good things. Long hair does not necessarily indicate femininity, short hair does not have to mean boyish... It's 2008, are gender stereotypes still so rigid?...

Sorry if its a little disjointed, I read through about 11 pages, it's late where I am but I wanted to reply before I forgot my thoughts. My apologies if this is confusing. I guess my point is that I think a male who isn't afraid to do/say/wear girly things can still be a real man. Not in spite of it but because he is secure in his own self, be he human or resin. Does that make sense?

 

I'm a guy and I strongly value emotional interaction. I highly doubt I am the only one. When it comes to yaoi or yuri or action movies or computer games there has to be a good story for me to care. Gratuitous sex or explosions just don't appeal to me.
Maybe we all start out objectifying who or whatever we are attracted to, and trying to stuff it into our perfect fantasy version at least for awhile.
Most people don't look at a person's mind first. Although it might gradually become clear someone is intelligent or resourceful and we might be attracted to that quality.
One quality of a doll is that it really has no mind of itrs own and it is not going to turn out to be some boorish slob after you went to the trouble of buying it all sorts of pretty things. If you think it is a pretty boy in a dress who acts like a girl that is what it will be. Humans are more complicated.

 

I don't think gratuitous sex and explosions appeal to anyone really except for kind of kitsch value. We all just assume they do and throw that in there. Maybe everyone's tastes would become more highbrow if we stopped pretending we just had to barely brush the lowest common denominator to have a successful film, book, CD, play...
It's nice to meet multifaced human beings, and I have to say, as one of those notoriously shallow teenage girls out there that's what I'll look for in a guy or girl should I ever feel the need to 'find' one, as they say. I do admit, though, that my ideal personality (dependable, comforting, safe, sincere, a bit pious... wow, that's my doll D= ) tends to come with a set body type in mind. Dolls are great because you can pick and choose your body and face separately and imagine what's inside, pour in what you want to I've noticed that all the doll owners I meet who aren't shy (and thus utterly alarmed by my presence) are the kind of people who like to create characters, basically, to write- not typically social, either. It's a very nice experience to create yourself a person in your mind from the feet upwards. Sometimes you end up with something fun but flawed, or something perfect and Mary Sue, or something objectified. We do it to dolls, but we don't want it done to people.

 

I want my first boy doll to be boyish... not girly. >O<;;
And actually, I saw a really cute girl doll on Dollmore, but I'm a girl so of course I want a boy doll. It's because the boy dolls look like the kind of guys I'm attracted to, so it would be fun to have my own little "boy" to dress up and take pics of and stuff. I'm not attracted to dolls like that, but you know...
I' not going to get crazy about my doll like some people have, either... it kinda creeps me out...

 

I don't understand why they do it, but eh, it's their choice.

I kinda don't understand why they don't just get female dolls if they want a doll to look like a female.

 

My apologies if I am restating what other's have said, but I've jumped here and there between the 15 pages and so obviously have missed things while at the same time read some very interesting points.

One of the large reasons that the feminine comes out so often I think is that while the male gender has stricter 'rules' about behavior and dress the female rules are open and becoming more so all the time. If a little boy wants to play with Barbies it's 'wrong' but a little girl can like snakes and lizards and merely be a tom boy. A male with long hair is feminine but a female with a pixie cut is just modern. As a female one can cross both gender stereotypes with more ease as far as acceptance of action goes be it wearing jeans or liking action movies. A guy is much more sociably ostracized for this due to narrower bonds.
My one doll, story wise, has a sex but no gender- he is anatomically male but has no personality wiring gender wise due to an absent minded creator. He often seems extremely girly because it is so much easier for a male to cross that line and be labeled as such.

For the more specific example in the topic head such as sexually female role- specifically the rape/molestation in the past- it is perhaps a way for doll owners (who are by large female and it is the females by large with these dolls) to deal with these hard issue while being able to be detached from the gender change. It is a frightening thing to think about being raped, but step back one by changing the gender and it can be more easily dealt with in a less horrifying manner for the portrayer. If that made sense to anyone I applaud you.

Of course, as far as dolls go we automatically start off one step behind since most molds are made to be 'pretty' and pretty is feminine, not masculine- though more and more exceptions do exist.

 

For me, its just nice to feel like I idnetify with something. I am an androgene, and have been 'feared and reviled', or at least made fun of, scapegoated and made to feel repulsive, for most of my life because of it. The aesthetic of a person neither male nor female is not attractive in the west.... we're just freaks. Remember 'Here's Pat'? Yeah.

The asian aesthetic is opposite that. It sees something elegant, mysterious and satisfying in the androgene, whether a female who resembles a male, or a male who resembles a female.

So. Through anime, BJD, and the general asian attitude of acceptance, I came to somewhat accept myself. I came to see that yeah, there ARE some people in this world who think what I am is attractive...dare I say even sexy? So huzzah for objectification of femmeboys. It proves that there is no such thing as an ideal form.

 

Because then it'd just be an ordinary girl doll. It wouldn't be a queeny boy doll.

 

Exactly! There is a difference between boys and girls, and the effect of dressing a boy doll in a feminine way isn't the same as having a girl. Heck, that's why I got a couple of girls despite already having a cross dressing boy. It seems pretty straightforward to me.

 

Androgynes are exotic, and with the way they're typically depicted at least in Japanese culture, pretty sexy. A guy who looks exactly like a girl, except for the 'important details' and isn't striving to be one is still different than a woman and so it has its own appeal. It's like... if you spray paint an apple orange, it's still an apple and not an orange. The colour change doesn't mean it necessarily wants to be an orange, or that you'd prefer oranges- you just have an orange apple. (Did that make any sense at all? My produce analogy = the fail. Plus, eating produce with paint on it is generally ill advised.)

 

Because the doll I wanted was a guy? I wasn't going to pick another doll just because the doll I wanted wasn't a girl. But even though my doll is a boy, I want to be able to dress him up in cute things. I like Hello Kitty, gothic lolita clothes, and adorable hats. Why shouldn't I put them on my doll just beacause he's a boy? Isn't the point of having a doll to have fun and dress them up in things you like? If it's fun, why shouldn't I do it? There's no deeper meaning in it for me. I just have girly tastes, so I kind of put girly things on my doll.

 

I skipped a whole lot of pages, but I find this discussion interesting. ^^ It really does happen when someone wants a guy doll but a female/feminine persona, doesn't it? But it doesn't necessarily have to be that a guy is feminized because he's dressed in female clothes. It is possible that there's a story behind it, or that the face actually does look good in feminine apparel. 8D As soon as I get my doll, I'd give him a pretty dress first! xD For me, it might be actually indirectly expressing my inner feminine side as I grew up to generously dislike dresses and skirts. ^^ I've just recently come to accept them, as long as I wear it with the proper accessories. But with dressing up guy dolls as girls, what about flat-chested/tomboy girls? I might have missed it in previous discussions, but would you guys and girls get a boy doll to do a tomboy persona, or a girl doll with her chest sanded off? Since the lower anatomy can't be changed...

 

To me it's do what ever makes you happy. I'm not into it but if makes that person happy to do it then go for it.

 

well, I have some girly boy dolls and I really like them.
I think everybody has their own reasons to like this kind of characters but mine is that I don't like men, and even less manly men ^^;; but I think androgynes is exotic (for both women and men).

When I think in a doll I imagine something beautiful, cute and delicate... so a manly doll would be a bit odd for me. If you see the most dolls from companies they all are a bit girly, even when you customize him as a man character he would still look feminine if you ask to someone out of this hobby.

 

I think girl dolls should keep their boobs and just wear suits. I think they look very nice in fancy boy's clothes like suits. I don't have a girl doll, though, so I can't do this. I'll just stick to dressing up Nathaniel.

 

I admit that I'm guilty of loving drag queens and having girly boys in mind, but I do my best to sort of give an explanation as to why they're the way they are in their storylines.

I think that maybe the reason that so many people have girly boys or transvestites is that there are a lot more personality options for guy than there is for girls. So people want to write about guys...but then there's a lack of female characters. So they bring in the girly guys and the problem's solved.

 

A lot of girl dolls really do look great in guy clothes, they just don't seem to be as obvious when they're "cross-dressed" as the boys are. They certainly don't get nearly as much commentary, either for or against.

If we're going to have dolls trading wardrobes, it may as well go both ways! My own Miyu mod, Kareyeru, only has two outfits to her name... DollHeart's "Lt.General" uniform and Heise's black "Ninja" outfit... both of which were designed for male dolls, but still look absolutley ace on her. Likewise the DollHeart "Gray Gentleman" set that Elise, my Nanuri '08 girl, has on at the moment, and Daisy, my DHSoo's, "The Leader" outfit. Gaia, my Elf Lishe, has been known to make off with the boys' business suits, too, and that, to me, is a very, very foxy thing. Women in suits are grand.

 

Seconded and thirded.

I've seen plenty of dollie drag queens. I want to see some drag kings. Not just girl dolls in suits.

I had one but s/he's being sold atm, . I would rather see someone else's take on it anyway.