Females as males? (Objectifying "males")

Okay, this is a lot like people complaining about angst and drama and how it's "overdone" in doll stories. The reason a story is interesting is that its got some sort of challenge, some sort of conflict. If it didn't, the story would be boring. My little Emily would be boring if she wasn't antagonizing Shasta all the time. Pretty to photograph, but for the stories in my head, boring. And Shasta and I didn't click until I got more of his story back down, which included teachers, grades, and, erm, favors. If he wants to be some little manwhore, I'm going to let him. It makes things much more interesting. Like the awesome produce analogy above, an orange colored apple is much more interesting. Slice of life stories, if artistic, thoughtful and done well, can be good, but I HATE a boring story. I hate when there's no action, no conflict to be resolved. I'd rather read some emo gay vampire boy story.

 

I don't see how aspects of anatomy [aside from genitalia] can be cogitated as being male or female. So how can a boy be "feminine" in every way possible aside from possessing a penis? Masculinity and femininity are facets of gender. Gender is a self concept constructed by behavior, not anatomy. Much like possessing a soul or personality. The line between what is and isn't in terms of gender is very diffused and often shaped by sexist and cultural attitudes.

Why can't a boy be petite [within the hobby, a doll's body is a choice], wear dresses and makeup and still be considered a boy? Those apportioned behaviors/choices don't coincide with reproduction so how can one differentiate what's sex specific? I just don't understand how it can contrived as being wrong.

I agree with you on the lack of originality some owners have. It's easier to follow trends than to create.

I don't think rape and molestation are "traditionally female" problems. Sexual abuse is a problem that affects both sexes. But that's offtopic.

People sexualize what they find sexual. Many are exigent in their pursuit of their sexual idealizations.

Being that many, not all, board users are Heterosexual/Bisexual/Transsexual women, these idealizations are typically dolls sculpted to be male.

It wouldn't offended me had the opposite been true, if most doll owners were Heterosexual/Bisexual/Transsexual men who's dolls were sculpted to female and objectified similarly. I don't really read the objectification as a shade of sexism but rather an idolization that serves a purpose to its owner. These dolls posses qualities of both art and sexual liberation which I don't find either to be sexist.

Objectification is the same and has the some motivation regardless of what is being objectified. Dolls sculpted to be infants are done so to represent/function as an idealization. Dolls sculpted to be used for sexual purposes are done so to represent/function as an idealization. The shape may change, but the motivator is the same. So how can one objectification be more demeaning then another?

Just for the record, it's amusing to me that we're discussing objectification as a negativity only when it involves intangible concepts of the self. And yet the mere fact that these objects are sculpted to humanoid is and of itself an objectification.

"objectification
noun
1. the act of representing an abstraction as a physical thing
2. a concrete representation of an abstract idea or principle"

Perhaps the fact that we're objectifying humans and attempting to summarize their behavior in resin is the problem.

 

I think it comes down to preference honestly. The reason why it took me a long time to get into BJDs is because I assumed that all boys looked like little boys, and girls looked very young. I thought the dolls were beautiful and looked at sites every once in awhile. But I never found anything that hooked me. I think it's mostly because I like my men to look like men, and I like women to look like women, not little girls. I like more mature characters (like in their twenties). When I discovered sculpts that looked this way, I decided to actually get into the hobby and own a doll.

It's not really just in the BJD hobby though. I've been a part of the online anime/game art communities for a long time. Rarely do you see anyone drawing men as men. Out of all the artists I've had a chance to know, only about 4 or 5 of them really draw realistic men. The girls I know always draw youthful slender boys with soft features. I don't really find this attractive since it looks very pre-pubecent. It sort of resembles how I draw my little boy characters (9-14 years old).

I just think it's a prevailing concept within asian pop culture and animation/comics, which also heavily inspires doll sculpts.

As far as it being right or wrong, I think it's up to the individual doll owner's tastes and perspective. It may be because the female body is more aesthetically pleasing than the male. If the person is female, it's easier to understand and relate to something that looks similar.

 

I think I'm going to have to put my two cents in since I've been juggling this issue lately anyway.
Generally speaking, I believe one might be a bit scared of the idea of ones self and sex- as a girl, I have this issue myself, and while I think perhaps I should feel different, I am scared none the less. So for me, seeing a feminized male doll or such things doesn't actually bother me, because it's a way in which I am able to accept sex- by removing myself from it- ie, by taking away some of the aspects of classically described female-ness.

I don't want to say that this is why this happens for everyone- I certaintly don't know that, but in my world, it's easier for me to accept certain aspects of sex when it doesn't involve the gender I relate to. Something like this then, to me doesn't mean a person is hyper repressed, or a complete weirdo, just that while one is comfortable with the general idea of sex, one might not be comfortable with a personal idea of sex, and therefore it might be easier for one to relate to certain personal things by projecting that elsewhere- this has been said before and I am in total agreement.

I also have to say, that while I plan to have girl dolls (who do have relationships with my male dolls) That is just another aspect of what I'm talking about here- they're dolls- even though they're girls, so once again, ones self is removed from the personal aspects...

I'm sorry if this is confusing!

 

Wow this topic started forever ago O.o

I'll preface my comment by saying that I don't like sexually objectifying either gender. I don't mind making them attractive of course, but whenever something crosses the line into sexual, I immediately lose interest.

I think I like girly boys because... I hate gender! And I hate gender roles. And so I would like having a doll that isn't bound by gender roles - I wouldn't want him to be particularly male -or- female, but rather wear clothes that mostly could be worn by either gender (and females happen to be able to wear most male clothes and not seem male, but if males wear female clothes, they seem female) which behavior that could be seen on either gender. I definitely don't want to sexualize my doll, or anything in my life, really.

I hate gender roles because I hate being expected to do certain things or talk in a certain way or what-ever- just because I was born a girl. I don't have that many friends because I'm outspoken and opinionated, and many people don't like that in a girl. But if I was a guy, I would probably have a lot of friends

So yeah. I love them cause they look androgenous and lay waste to society's understanding of gender.

 

No No No, Male as female. Well..
in case of such, it probably do with character person want or just what they want. AOD boy I will get will be Bisexual. He take on female-ish show with how he dress and look. It no means, whether be me or someone else who make girlish boy, to be violate or..offend opposite gender. It just what we want. What I want. Mostly..because it has to do with my character ^_^

 

I can't say why we (girls) sexualize men in such a way, since I don't particularly have any interests for it. I like my men strong and open-minded.

I don't think its accepted either - actually, any gender sexualization is considered to be discriminatory and wrong, hence the term 'objectifying', to reduce a human to a mere sexual object. It exist, and most often ever will, because of porn. Yes, porn. And hidden fantasies. I've often been told that the desire to dominate one's partner was perfectly natural, an almost animalistic desire that we all fundamentally possess. This behavior is most often found in animals that have alpha males leaders, though apparently for some species, its the female that dominate (i.e. scorpios and some spiders).

I think that the point in which our society finds itself could also explain why the objectification of males is more tolerated than females. I mean, we've been through thousands of years being the underdogs, and feminism is finally at its peak, and we fight for every piece of equality we can get. Thanks to our mothers and grandmothers who've fought for us, we understand that such discriminatory views are unacceptable, and we reject them.
On the other hand, men have been living their lives blissfully at the top, and seem to be less affected by the sexualization of their gender. Most often then not, I think they might even be flattered by the fact we go all lusty over them and that we fantasize about them. For girls, where sex was often an act of being overpowered, sex among men is encouraged, and even a source of pride among their peers. My guy friends are always flaunting the number of girls they've had, the number of girls at their feet, etc.

Also, most of us here are girls, I am assuming, so we don't feel any compassion for the boy who is being objectified - we can't know what its like being in his shoes, whereas if the victim was female, we'd totally understand. Furthermore, like I said about feminity and all, I know some girls push it even further than equality, and feel like its 'payback' time and that its entirely justified to treat men in such ways, especially after years of enduring their dominance. Somehow, I get the feeling that if a very masculinist (does that word exist? or does it just work for feminist?) boy found out about us girls picturing them getting raped and molested, they'd also be terrified.

As to why some of us like to feminize boys, I think it has to do with the fact that feminity is still associated with some kind of surreal and ephemeral beauty. I mean, we often say that guys are 'oh so hot', but girls are said to be 'beautiful' (I rarely hear someone say 'what a beautiful boy' to a guy who's very masculine). Again, hot=sex, and beautiful=beauty, attraction, attachment, something pure. Even in reality, boys with feminine traits have gone from being whimps to slender and cute. (Though I can't say if among guys they think that way or not). You can totally see this by asking your mother (well my mom anyways). I know that most middle-aged women I know have told me that they find young boys too weak and girl now, whereas feminine boys are now generally accepted among teens (even those who have no interests towards yaoi and BL).

Anyways, thats just what I think ^^

 

women sexualize men as a way to claim power. If the opposite were true, if women were the dominiate in society, we would be having a conversation about masculinizing women and how "that" was bad or a negative because we were taking away their awesome feminity.

I find that my dolls all blend the lines of gender. I have a gay guy, a butch lesbian, a MtoF Transgendered person, a bi sexual or two, and a beast man. I like to mix it up, and change my own expectations. Maybe I will open someone elses eyes too, but either way, I enjoy playing with my dolls and writing their stories, and that's what I want this hobby to be about for me.

 

Perception from an asian person:
(Here it goes)
Adrogyny is considered beauty because supposedly, we take both beautiful features from both genders and mold it to one. Whereas idealized females (as seen in manga/anime) is more catering to men, women prefer their idealized men to be as such: Sensitive, attractive, strong, beautiful, youthful and elegant.
In Asian culture it isn't rare to see very adrogynous men, young asian boys don't look overtly masculine. And recent media has shown to promote such images for men especially since women's influence and personal aesthetics have spread in a once male dominated culture. So this "sudden boom" exploded with great impact.
Also its about youth. Everything is targeted to the youth, youthfulness is considered attractive even to old people. It just so happens that by creating characters that represent youth is more adrogynous by depleting such impurities and imperfections and create something more "iconic".

It's all about Fantasy and expressing our fantasy onto mediums. (whether as vulgar or petty as it may sound). BJD's, manga and anime are just like that. They cater to their fantasies and unleash it for others to see, own, possess and experience.

I for one however, wished there would be more masculinity in BJD's and Manga/Anime. It would add more variety and more distinctiveness to features.

 

Okay... I am intrigued by this debate and would like to offer my own view (if mostly to write it down and maybe understand it, myself).

I see a lot of people in this thread talking about 'objectifying' male dolls by making them sexual creatures displaying their sexuality, but I also wonder if that might be, at least sometimes, merely due to the medium of this hobby. Writers write or create photostories, they make up their dolls and share them with the world, put them on display. If their characters are highly sexual, that sexuality will be photographed or written about and put out for everyone to see. In such situations, is it really 'objectifying' that character? Or simply sharing them the way they are, without any apology or holding back? If a writer or any concerned and loving doll owner loves their doll and creates for them a personality, a back-story, something highly personal that maybe allows them to work through all manner of issues within themselves and the world at large around them, and if they respect their doll/character, I think even pin-up posts can be less about 'objectification' and more about a 'celebration' of that character.

Many of the first pin-up girls were radicals, feminists who defied their society and demanded the right to own their own bodies - just as the first prostitutes were the only women in their society who actually earned their own money and kept it. I'm not saying all pin-up girls and prositutes should be admired for their occupations or that a significant portion aren't very screwed up and taken advantage of by others... but I do question what gives anyone the right to think less of anyone for what they choose to do with their bodies. Our own sexuality is something women have struggled to claim and understand - what is acceptable and what isn't? And why isn't something acceptable? And who gets to tell you it isn't when it is your own body, your own life?

And so I ask why pin-up posts and highly sexualized dolls/characters, whether with boy or girl dolls, are necessarily about 'ojectification'? These days, I think a lot of people are looking to celebrate sexuality and the freedom we have with it, so markedly different and beyond any freedom we have known in the past in our society.

Some people I think, or at least this is my own experience, like to push the boundaries of our sexuality, celebrate the freedom we have with it and find out where our own limits lie in ourselves, without relying on society's view of what we 'should' think or how we 'should' act.

I have a few characters that are very sexualized, they are sultry, flirty, sexy, and they make no apologies for it. I don't objectify them. I don't think of them as some mindless piece of meat that I can shove in a sexy outfit and make pose for me whenever I want. They have reasons for the way they are, reasons that I enjoy exploring and thinking about just as I wonder, I suppose, why people I meet are the way they are. Why angry people are angry. Why happy people are happy (are they on valium or is there some trick to that?). Kind of thing...

And why shouldn't we explore sexuality in all its myriad facets - I think it's wonderful. I think it's fascinating. I have my sultry, flirty characters and I have my prudish characters who would be shocked at themselves for even kissing on the first date. People come in all sorts of shapes and sizes and I for one want to celebrate that. And I want to explore it and come to some kind of terms with it; find some way to understand it and give it a reason - a reason why different people are the way they are.

However, that being said... I do not believe all doll owners, perhaps especially ones that like to dress up their boys in girly clothes or demasculinize or even desexualize their male dolls are doing so out of some pure and righteous sense of exploring sexuality (I won't even say that's what I do, entirely, all the time). I think some people will tell you they do so because 'they like it' and that's that - and for some people, that really is going to be all there is to it - or at least all they consciously realize or are prepared to accept about themselves.

On a subconscious level, I think demasculinizing a male doll makes them less threatening and more relateable. Quite aside from making them more attractive, or more sexual, as I mentioned above, demasculinizing a boy doll can be desexualizing him for their owner, no matter how sultry, sexy, or slutty that character might be. They may come off as highly sexual to others, other characters, other people, but to their owner, they become just 'one of the girls'. More easily relateable and most likely, more often than not, not actually attractive to that person. Which is not to say 'not beautiful', they may think they are tremendously beautiful... but in a 'if your doll were a real-life person would you be attracted to them' kind of way... I think that be a 'no'... quite often. They would be friends, maybe, but that's it.

And others... well, some people are just turned on by the blurring of gender roles. Handsome women, feminine men... a way to have the best of both genders in one person. Having a man, who is very much a man, in the body of a woman, with all the gender-specific curves and soft spots in all the right places... it can be very alluring. Perhaps it's just one of the last sexual frontiers left to us, one of the very few things that still shock people, that wiggle into the dark places of our minds and won't get out. People have always had a fascination with taboo.

And now I am sure I have rambled enough. ^^;

 

I think it's a girl thing. A lot of girls like pretty, girlish, looking men and dolls can be made exactly that way, very pretty and perfect. Maybe feminine men are safer or maybe girls just think they are sexier.

 

I read the whole thread to make sure I'm not repeating anything. My post is going to be slightly off topic from the original, but relevant to a lot of the points brought up.

The musical that Miss Sha brought up is called Takarazuka, and it is the reason I became interested in BJD as a hobby, because I wanted to have a pair of dolls who I could dress up as Takarazuka stars. What that means is modifying a male body to a female body in order to have one taller, more masculine female.

Why is this relevant? Because in Takarazuka, the woman who plays the male role is, in many ways, the ideal man. She/he is sensitive, understands women, is romantic, refined, gentle, elegant, and takes care with her/his physical appearance. Some women, especially women in Japan as krazehkrazeh mentioned, want an ideal man whom they like, not the man's ideal male. How many times have you seen a guy in a tee shirt with baggy pants showing his boxers and wondered, "does he really think that makes him attractive to women?"

There have been several posters who have professed to like "manly men" or "men's men" who eat steaks and belch and wear dirty clothes, but I think that the girl-to-boy mods stems from the desire of some women to have a man who doesn't have those qualities. My male-to-female mod is based on the same principle. One ideal sexual/romantic partner is a male who has male equiptment, but with all the gentleness and refinement that a woman has. Takarazuka's following is largely stay-at-home wives/mothers because they want the man that society can't provide. And (arguably) Western society isn't really providing that sensitive and beautiful man either, because the (arguably) theoretical ideal is a man who has lots of muscles, eats pretzels and guzzles beer at Superbowl Sunday, and thinks farts are really funny.

Is it any wonder that women in many, many societies, Western and Eastern, want a male who is more gentle and refined? Japanese men, contrary to some depictions, can be really chauvanistic, just like Western men, and don't think about it or even realize they're doing it. Society is like that. But these mods, these girly-boys, aren't they just what we wish men could be?

(I made a few broad generalizations here for the sake of making a point. I am very aware that not all men are like this, not all women are like that, etc. etc. and since I've spent two years in Japan I know not all Japanese men are like that, but for the sake of argument I just wrote it anyway. Please don't take offense, none was intended.)

 

There are actually a few reasons I know of for this, at least in my experience.

The subject of yaoi, I have to agree with Armeleia, started as a way for women in the cultures the manga came from to indulge in romantic fantasies with two characters who were seen as equals. Since women are still seen - not as lower class, I don't think - but as "less" in the same way women were in the middle or beginning of the century in America, they used two males as a way of showing characters of equal standing. One of the men was shown as demure and feminine and dainty in most regards, and the other was usually very masculine. I'm not sure if this is still the case, or if this is why we like it so much in America or other countries, but that's just what I'd read regarding the subject itself. It's a little easier to understand, then, why some people might find it so appealing.

I'm not sure if that's why I have a few characters that are feminine men, though. It's one of those things that I just like, without being able to fully explain WHY I like it. Once I start getting my collection of dolls up to what I want (haha riiiight...) I'll probably have a smaller number of feminine boys then masculine boys really, and a few girls here and there. Many of the feminine men will be based on my girlfriend's characters, who are the lovers to my own male characters. I'm not sure why we like the two-men dynamic so much, but it's a theme that we indulge in quite a lot, amongst ourselves, and since the characters we create are so important to me and her, the dolls I get will be even more important to me if they're based on those characters.

I don't see myself as over sexualizing the feminine boy dolls that I intend to get. The main one I'm planning on getting, a Vampire Shiwoo, will actually be wearing mostly Victorian-style dresses, which cover quite a bit of his skin. At the same time, another, modern version of the SAME character will dress basically like any other boy, with only a possible chance of wearing a girly-looking outfit. The reason the Shiwoo will be girly, we reason, is because in the Victorian era, it was illegal for two men to have a romantic relationship with one another. So to avoid being in trouble when he's with his lover, the character would of course wear women's clothing and crossdress so that no one would know he was secretly a man. I guess, though, that just about everyone who has a feminine boy has a reason for it other then "he likes wearing dresses." Even that, though, I think, is just as valid a reason as any other. There are men in today's society who honestly do enjoy wearing women's clothing. They feel more comfortable dressed that way then they do as a man. I myself am actually the type of woman who feels more comfortable dressing as a man then I do as a woman, so I can sort've understand this. I dont' see any reason why this can't be expressed through the dolls we own.

I do look at most of the feminine boy dolls, myself, and wonder if perhaps the female owners of these dolls do so out of the same sort of psychological sense of equality they get in the thought of a feminine character who's actually a man, the same as with yaoi. Perhaps it's a way for them to express their ideas of beauty and grace and elegance in a form that also has the ability to step out of the beautiful clothing and still be seen as an equal to a man? They can be pretty, and still be seen as a human being instead of being seen as an object just there for the pleasure of others, if that makes sense. It doesn't help that many of the dolls that are most frequently shown wearing dresses (yes, I'll admit, my future femmeboy is a Shiwoo, just like 9/10s of the ones out there. :P) are fairly androgynous and lend themselves well to the feminine, pretty look. Part of me feels a little like I'm jumping on the bandwagon for realizing that the doll that most fits the character in my eyes is a Shiwoo, which many other doll-owners have put in dresses, too. But at the same time, I would feel like I was doing a disservice to the character, to make it another mold just because I didn't want to make him "Just another girly Shiwoo." I can't help it that the mold that most fits him in the face is that mold, and I don't want to have to feel like I'm copying everyone else by having my boy be a girly boy when he was like that even before we thought about making him into a doll. It makes me a little sad, I guess, to think that some people won't take him as seriously as they might have otherwise, just because they've seen 100 other Shiwoos in skirts, even though I do understand why it could be seen as an annoyance.

I think, really, what it boils down to with ME, though, is how my ideas on gender are...maybe a little different then some of the more mainstream views on gender. It's taken me a long time to figure it out, and I still don't know exactly how to explain it, but it's something that I've thought a lot about since realizing that I may not have the gender and sexuality ideals that a lot of people in society would like me to have. To me, genders and sexuality are...um...maybe not pointless, but...redundant? I like to look at humans as one large group, with differences based on personality and not physical sex. There are masculine women, there are feminine men, and there's every type of gender in between. It doesn't matter to me as much what a person's plumbing is, just what their personality is like. Those views are expressed in my dolls. It just happens that most of the characters I want to make are males, because I like to look at the male figure a bit more then the female figure, despite having a girlfriend, and possibly have a subconscious desire to be masculine vicariously through my male characters, not only in the doll world but also in costuming, renaissance fairing, and cosplaying, where I prefer to only go as a man.

Buuuut I don't begin to think that anyone else understands the way I think, so if this all came off as a confusing, WTFery post, don't mind me. Sexuality is actually one of those things that even psychiatrists and doctors have a hard time understanding, so I don't know if it would be possible for anyone to have a full understanding on sexuality and why people put certain gender rolls on certain people, characters, or even dolls. Just the fact that so many of the posts in this thread are so very long shows how much people think about it, though, and it's rather fascinating to read. hehehe

 

I guess it's probably a cultural thing and a matter of taste.

I would really like to see some male dolls that look male, but not macho or action figure like. Just normal, average, not over stylized either way.

 

Playing the Freudian as well as the devil's advocate, might the objectified male be an outlet for those women who feel or have felt mentally and sexually subjugated? Could a woman who has lived her whole life as less privileged and less gratified than the men in her life need some outlet to express her unconscious frustrations? Could the over-sexualized behavior be a way of showing her want to express her own sexual freedom—to be able to enjoy sex, to pleasure herself, to be sexually appealing without being labeled as a dirty tramp? Is it a way to subtly break the double-standard?

If she does not have the power in her own daily workings to kick off the societal idea of the superior man, she can only make it so in her fantasy life. She can really give those nasty memories of subservient life a taste of it’s own liquor. An inanimate male doll does not talk back when he is made to be the submissive. His creator given character is to obey and do as he is told, like a Victorian woman. And who is controlling him? Not his partner, as he is only another doll, but his mother. The one who all her life has been put down by men, told she is the lesser sex; made to view her own gender, something she could not choose, as a curse.

Now I’m going off-topic: are doll characteristics are way of “sticking it to the man?” From a highly psychoanalytic point of view, maybe. Maybe it’s a way to get out frustration. Maybe it’s your unconscious saying this or that about your life experiences. And maybe, it’s just another step towards equality. In the fight for equal rights for all, every little bit helps. Embracing the non-traditional male, even in doll form, is one step closer to putting us all up on that “masculine” pedestal. You may not like how “popular” the feminine male has become, but at least you’re accepting it. Maybe that’s the first step. Start with dolls and work your way up.

Just a different view to chew on; don't rip me to shreds as my liberal college really has trained me to think from odd viewpoints, even if they are very different from mine own. XD I also use “woman” very generally—there are, of course, the male and gay fractions that have been put down in their own ways and of which can have this “theory” applied.

 

No. In a word There is such a thing as a nice, intelligent, sensitive, refined gentleman who retains his masculinity. This nice, intelligent, sensitive male can be gay, straight or bi, but is nothing less than 100% masculine all the way, he doesn't lose any of that masculinity because of which sex he hankers after.

Masculinity here is not referring to the 'Commando butch grrr' male type, but to the state of being masculine; being comfortable with oneself being male, enjoying being male, having male habits like picking his nose or scratching his belly, wearing a tiny amount of pink irregularly...that sort of guy. The kind of man who'll go with you to see a chick-flick and won't complain, but afterwards when you complain the film was filled with terrible characters and suffered from an awful script he'll critique right along with you.

This is why I get so turned off a lot of the boy/boy pairings. The 'sensitive' one in the pairing is invariably dressed in pink, with long, batty eyelashes and a long wig, and the macho one is gruff, has a short furwig and wears dark colours. In real life, you don't come across men like this, or men strictly like this. There are as many 'types' of man as there are women and I have felt for a long time that the 'strong, silent type' and the 'hysterical camp guy' are two tropes that are incredibly overused.

I think a lot of boy/boy pairings are as imbalanced as boy/girl pairings, with one character taking on the 'man' role and the other taking on the 'woman' one. Just because a relationship has two guys or two girls in it doesn't mean the relationship is balanced in any way, and a relationship between a girlyboy and an uber-masculine male is not a relationship of equals on anyone's terms.

In real life, girlymen are generally treated with suspicion and given a wide-berth by their uber-masculine peers and even by some of their metrosexual peers, regardless of whether the girlyman is simply effeminate or actually bi/gay. They aren't treated as equals, they should be since we're all human regardless of personality and sexuality, but they're not equal at all. This inequality is mirrored in yaoi stories where one male is typically the girl and the other is typically the boy, I haven't seen much evidence of versatility in yaoi relationships where both partners are happy to switch roles, even if there is one role they particularly prefer.

 

I don't know if it has been said or not, but in many Asian countries feminine men are common. It's not that they're gay, it's just a cultural difference. I married one of them I think that in Western countries it has just been taken in a different way. The feminine men of yaoi are just what the mangaka see as good looking men, not necessarily gay men. Yaoi in general seems to be popular right now and that's what will be seen most often until a new phase rolls through. Also, feminine does not equal gay, many (I want to say 60% but I'm not sure of the statistic) of gay men couples are both masculine. One feminine and one masculine or both feminine are just plain out uncommon in reality. Most gay men act like straight men, there isn't a difference.

I think the practice of sexualizing dolls is a separate matter altogether and does not necessarily have a correlation with feminine male dolls. Female dolls are used in the same way when we place them in lingerie and seductive photographs. Also, you have to think about the types of people who post photos and doll stories. They may just be more prone to post than doll owners of different tastes. I might write my thesis on this topic. I'll share if I do.

 

I didn't mean men who are in a gay relationship, I meant men who women desire. Why can't a man be masculine but have only the "feminine" qualities we want to attribute to them? I'm having a hard time understanding what you're trying to say, but if I'm understanding correctly, you're saying that a man can't be sensitive, nice, intelligent, and refined, and still be masculine. What I'm trying to express is that women want a man who is all those things and still male...basically, the feminine men that we see doll owners preferring. If you are going to have a doll, would you want him to be your ideal male (that mix of traditionally female qualities but sexually male), or the male that we see in society with baggy pants and an appreciation for Hooters? I think most women would choose ideal male, and I think these men who have sensitive, feminine traits are just that.

 

my apologies, I think I explained it poorly. I think the issue of "equality" comes more from the thought of a man being more equal then a woman, thus giving the girls who enjoy yaoi and bl a chance to indulge in the fantasy of having a man who's strong and can take care of them, but at the same time they can be a social equal with. Many of the yaoi and bl stories I've read actually don't touch on the misconceptions most of the feminine men face from other people, like they would in society. It's an idealized sort of situation, I would think, where the world is accepting of two men loving each other.

Of course, psychologically, it's reassuring in some ways, but logistically it doesn't really stand up to reason. I doubt many of the people who read and write it know just why it makes them feel the way it does. Like I said, psychology is a highly complicated field, and the psychology of sexuality is no less complicated then any other.

 

There's a lot of variation in the yaoi scene that you're missing, though. Not all of them are the stereotype-trope roleplaying couples. There are plenty of effeminate Tops, and big burly Bottoms, and pushy gruff ukes, and neutoric semes, and complete Switch couples, and couples who don't separate roles at all. Like with any genre, though, non-readers will only see the "queeny one + macho one", because they only see what gets the most attention.

And as far as THAT trope goes, a lot of people love it. Often, they love it specifically because there isn't a balance of power there-- the boy gets the girl's treatment. It functions somewhat as a substitute for a hetero pairing, without having to read irritating female characters or look at badly-drawn breasts. Just because a lot of people decry it as "overdone" doesn't mean it's any less valid. This would be like saying you can't make chocolate ice cream anymore, because it's just soooo hackneyed and overused and done-to-death. (If you actually wish to see less conventional pairings, either do some digging to find them, or else make your own & be part of the solution.)

Also: to say that ANY type of man 'doesn't exist in real life' is folly. I live in San Francisco-- in a half-hour walking tour, I could probably show you half of the doll stereotypes from here on DOA. This place is home to gruff macho men in black denim, hysterical princesses in pink lurex, gruff princesses in pink & black, and hysterical macho men in black & pink.

This is true-- all very idealized, it's a fantasy world. By completely dodging the issue of 'real life' treatment, it envisions a world where those types of people CAN find happiness with society's blessing (or, at least, without society's abuse).

At the bottom line, "reality" is often the furthest thing from people's mind when they pick up comic erotica to read, or a doll photo to enjoy. So I wouldn't bother even trying to make doll photos OR yaoi comics carry the burden of too much reality. Such soapboxing only falls on deaf ears for an audience who just wants a good time.