Females as males? (Objectifying "males")

I think Jescissa's point (at least the point I took away from her post) is that a man can have all the sensitivity, thoughtfulness, and beauty that a woman might want, and still have zero desire to wear false eyelashes or hot pink miniskirts. If sensitive "feminine" traits are the female's ideal in a male, that doesn't necessarily say that men must be outwardly feminine in order to have those qualities. I know some sensitive dudes who, in personality terms, are a close real-world match to this ideal, but who, in outward appearance, are anything but girly. A tall, muscly bike courier and soccer player who usually wears shorts & t-shirts; a fence-and-deck contractor who loves paintball and often wears button-down plaid with his Carhartts...these men are totally different, outwardly speaking, from the sort of femmy skirt!bois at the crux of this discussion, but I can assure you they are perfectly nice, intelligent, and sensitive. While I'll grant that they're not exactly wine-snob refined, they are also far from crude. And all this without a single skirt or a hint of makeup!

So I think that, while the stereotypical ideals of "what women want" may play a part in the feminization of male dolls, I think that's not the only force behind it. If women want to create sensitive, intelligent male characters, there are dozens of different ways to do it, from the manly-but-sensitive guys I described, to JennyNemesis's hysterical macho men in black and pink, to some people's gentlemen-from-another-time, to skirt!bois. When the question is "why skirt!bois?" to say "because women like sensitive men" does not address the question of why skirt!bois seem more common than all the other types of sensitive males.

Of course, I don't think anybody has to explain their preference...I would never go around demanding "why the makeup?" in someone's gallery post. But I am intrigued by the waves of popularity for certain ways of expressing something and like to think about the reasons that might be behind them.

 

Thanks for explaining, I definitely understand better now. I wasn't referring to the boys wearing girls clothes that came up later in the thread, I was referring to the generally more feminine males, the girl-to-boy mods. Sort of like the two friends you mentioned, though most owner's boys are not that masculine.

 

I am completely androgynous so I don't gender anything. Even myself. I don't like the idea of separation between genders socially. And I hate sexism.

But I think fem boys have always been popular. The man with the female face is more attractive to me then the one with facial hair. But then again I have bi tendencies and like females more so, of course I like guys who look like them but like girls.

So if I look back in real life this works for people.

I think it's the same with the dolls maybe? personally non of my dolls are girlie boys? or what I would consider girlie. I think it's a modern expression. For years it has been forbidden for males to wear a skirt. In some places it still is. But girls can be socially accepted wearing shorts? were as if I guy wears a skirt that makes him fem all of a sudden.

It is what attracts the most what is aesthetically pleasing. You certainly don't have to be bi to find a male with a female face attractive. And the main thing I read over and over is how people like the way they look. So it just makes sense to me.

-I have to know a lot about gender roles because of me and my partners relationship.

 

Wow. Everyone has such interesting opinions! I think that it is definitely true that most of the people who own and personify their dolls this way are females themselves and they probably are trying to make them easier to relate to this way. I guess the other thing is that a lot of them are, in contrast, fascinated with things they don't understand or have kind of idealised in their minds (molestation, rape, etc) when in reality, subjects like that are pretty horrible.

But without all of that, I suppose that most(and I'm being reeeally generalised here) dollfies are manufactured to look pretty. Of course owners can go and get faceups to make them look more masculine or dress them up that way but for the most part, dollfies are kind of 'bishounen'? And recently crossdressing bishounen have become even more popular. So of course some people will want to imitate this.

.... but I guess I wouldn't say it's purely a popularity thing either. Hmm..

 

I personally don't like the feminine males, but I can see where they have a softness that is kind of attractive. I don't think it's wrong to objectify male dolls, and in truth a lot of the male sculpts that are available are kind of soft and feminine... i havent seen many manly man dolls. Well let me take that back... they are manly from the neck down but soft in the face. I wonder if it's more of an availability thing.

 

In my humble opinion...
I do not know if it has been pointed out, but real korean boys do look pretty effeminate for non-asian eyes, especially the handsome ones. Check out the now-famous actor Lee Jun ki. or the k-pop group DBSK (TBSQ ?)So it might -partly- be a cultural/morphological difference.
Secondly, whether they are male or female, the BJD don't have those curves and shapes that would be appropriate for a very gender-expressing body. I agree that boys do look much more like girls then the opposite. But nither of the two genders is, well, VERY manfly or womanly.
Probably because they are destined to a young female public, that likes sweet-and-cute romantic-looking males more then very sharp and masculine, square-shaped ones. And why do we like those effeminate pretty boys - whether they are dolls or idolu, or real guys, - that is another question...
=)
Let's also consider the fact that aestherics have no gender - and if you want a very pretty female face or a very pretty male face, a little asian/anime-styled, you will end up with simillar proportions, simillar features - soft and thin - that are attractive in a human being. You may notice this effect in fashino magazines with male and female models posing - boys would tend to look mroe effeminate then average, and girls would look less womanly because of the straight features and unabundant body curves. This phenomenon is amplified and exagerated with the BJD.

I personally am not very fond of girly-looking bodies, or faces, but I find them rather handsome when they have some extra grace and softness about them, while still staying - recongniseably - male.

 

...And, strangely enough, to say "because it's sexy & fun" or "because I like it" never seems to be a sufficient answer.

(Skirtboi-owners have my blessing, no matter how silly, because I've never seen one good reason why anyone should ever have to justify or explain their aesthetic choices, to anyone, and I've never seen one good reason why anyone should have to force their toys to conform to reality.)

Yes, every day. Hard not to notice. Fashion Week is like a Michael Jackson fantasy parade; the younger female runway models all look like semipubescent boys (crossbred with Area 51 aliens). Yet nobody questions the motives of straight men [or women, for that matter] who put pictures of those shapeless critters up on their walls, do they? Androgyny has long been a major fashion accessory.

I also think that's as it should be. When men & women want to decorate and fabulize themselves, and create revolutionary new looks, they should be able to work from the same set of 'supplies' (so to speak): thinness, eyeliner, cheekbones, tight clothes, etcetera. Otherwise, Fashion Week would be populated by nothing but Jackie O clones every year, and rock-stars would all look like Bruce Springsteen every year, and that'd all be so sad.

 

First I have to say WOW this is one of the BEST threads on DOA. I did read all 17 pages of this thread. I found some of it insightful and very intelligent while some of it was very shallow and regurgitating the same stuff over and over again and everyone attributing it to Yaoi. It was nice to see that some people went into some of the phycological parts of the matter and some delved into the history of it. I also want to thank the person who resurrected this thread from this eternal sleep as I believe its a great topic.

NOW on to the Topic at hand. "Females as Males? (Objectifying males)"

Well I guess the first point I want to hit and that I did not see any where, is the this title is a bit of an Oxymoron in its self. Dressing or Making a male doll or human as a girl or female is in no way objectifying them.
Objectifying a male would be exploiting their maleness. As in Playgirl magazine or the Chip N' Dale dancers. The meaning of Objectification is the process by which abstract concepts are treated as if they were concrete things or physical objects. In this sense the term is synonym to reification.

Objectification also commonly refers to the regarding of a person as 'a thing'. For example, sexual objectification referes to the regarding of a person as merely a non-human object, or tool, for sex, IE modeling in a Playgirl mag, dancing as a Chip N dale dancer and so on. I see in no way how being feminized is objectifying a male.

I want to hit many important part in this thread and I am very sorry if I am too blunt or informative for any one. This is a very deep topic and I think it deserves more in depth conversations then it has received as a whole.

Our dolls are many things to us. They are extensions of our selves, fantasies of what we wish we had, dreams of what could be and for some just play things. There for people modifying their dolls to suit an ideal is very normal to me. People are just like our dolls there are reasons that they look and act a certain way. There are reasons that they like the things that they do and are into the things that they are.

On the topic of Males to females: As a few have pointed out this is nothing new. From before history was even being cataloged there have been man dressing and acting like fems or women. Danddys are nothing new at all so I do not understand why everyone is jumping on the Yaoi ban waggon for this. It also HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING GAY! In modern times (meaning the last 50 years or so) many people who are interested in this sort of "play" have found their way into the BDSM (bondage, discipline, Sadomasochism, Masochism) also commonly refereed to as S&M even tho that is incorrect in most instance. It would be like calling a Bi woman or man Gay just because they like the same sex. Its only part right. Some men like being dressed as women and would do so in their daily lives as they like the way it makes them feel. In talking to many people that are interested in this sort of play I have to say that as a woman I am often offended by the way it makes them feel. Men seem to think it makes them more vulnerable, soft and easily over powered or powerless. My feeling is that the people who dress and manifest their male dolls as females is that they are in a way seeking power over then just as a mistress or master would over their subbmissive or slave. There is NOTHING wrong with femmy males at all. There is NOTHING wrong with men or male dolls who like to wear womans clothing.It is an expression of how they feel and wish the world to convey them.

I, my self do not have any cross dressing male dolls or fem males. BUT I do want an EL head to put on a Girl body and my Souldoll Asiter is offten mistaken for a girl ene while wearing a HZ Silent world uniform. ??? I mean hes pretty and all but very male so I dont quite get it.

I want to brotch the topic that's run through out this thread off and on and that is "rape" . There are a great many reasons that I think this ends up in character development as well as story line and conversation, all of witch need to be addressed. I feel that most parties that have posted on this topic are focusing on the act its self and not its implications and fall out that results from it. In respect to a prologue for a character this is an important event to inform an interested party to as it will reveal and manifest its self in many was thru the character. Fear, A hunger for Power, maybe being overly feminine if it was a boy that was violated by an another male as a young age. It can also show thru in other ways. Sometimes it can make someone into a monster them selves or someone who re-enacts this same event on others. While on the same hand others are left with the feeling that they are powerless and know nothing but how to be a victim and there for lend them selves to being a victim again. Most times the perpetrator has a dysfunction them selves and is seeking power or to make up for something hat they lack or are seeking. I feel that leaving out this factor in a story, character prologue would leave many questions as to WHY some acts the way they do, does what they do or thinks what they do. Rape really is a life changing experience and I do not think that this tread has done the topic justice only slammed its use. For some people having their dolls experience such an event maybe empowering to them and a way for them to work thru issues of their own.


In my oppion people are expressing them selves thru their dolls in various ways this being one of them.

My question to you all is, Why is this do very different from a Girl doll being dressed as a harlet or a butch?

 

I'm fine with femme-looking boys. What I personally do not like is when a doll that's been obviously sculpted as a very "masculine" doll is given a very feminine faceup.

Like Iplehouse Luo. The factory pics makes him look like a gay Lou Ferrigno.

 

both (all?) genders have been objectified at one point or another, doll or no, it happens!
it's all personal choice, and no necessarily going to bring the world to it's knees.
I like dressing my boy doll in a dress cause' it's cute and funny, and no sane man would let me dress HIM in princess frills.

 

I think it's almost a way to show "the shoe being on the other foot" so to speak. Basically, we're (female) doing to men what has been done to us (generally speaking) for so many years. Not necessarily meaning it to be vindication for anything, but perhaps to have something be "out there" or "different" as far as characters go. Also, given that the majority of doll owners are female, I think it's seen as "okay" to have males in very sexual poses and clothing, as it's more socially accepted to see more of male skin than it is female.

A combination of subconscious and aesthetic choice, I guess.

 

I personally like my boys girly. I don't think it's disdain for anything. It's just a preference. To me anyway. Maybe others have reasons that make more sense... XD

 

I can't remember if I've replied here or not... I don't think I have. In any case, here's my current two cents, regarding the first three boys I plan to buy.

My first boy, Vince, is very androgynous. There are times where he'll be boyish, but other times where he'll be very, very girly. Since I go between being feminine and a total tomboy, it makes sense to me that his 'gender identity' could change on a whim.

The Terra I plan to get is going to be A) the SD-range in a family of MSD-range dolls, very comparitively masculine in appearance, tough-looking, stern expression... but he likes to cook, sew, do little things around the house to take care of his family. Essentially, he's the nurturer. Whereas the third boy I plan to buy (A Ttori) is going to looks small, cute, and super-uke, but *he's* a total badass who is much more likely to get into a fight (and, despite his appearance, do pretty well in it!), and he gets much more competitive.

So, among my first three planned dolls, there's a range of femininity-ness.

=^__^=
Anneko

 

I'm a feminist. I don't like objectification. Period. I also don't like the glamorizing of rape of assault. Period. I don't care if it's male or female or somewhere in between.

I don't care if a boy is "girly", because I just don't care about gender norms.

 

Personally, (and I'm quite sure I've replied in this thread before) MASCULINE men do nothing for me. I don't understand why women find them attractive. Yet, for the life of me, I don't understand all the distain for feminine men. I can understand why people would have a problem with rape stories, but feminine men?

 

I agree with Lycansea. I think its because we're raised with the old images that men have certain expectations, just like women. That's why feminine men are objectified like masculine women.

But I personally like having a combination. That is, males and females that can be "feminine" (soft, sensitive, pretty etc) but also "masculine" (loyal, courageous, more chiselled etc) because then its the best of both.

 

Having read through this a bit, I've noticed a few things, and a friend of mine pointed out that the Asian aesthetic of beauty was different from that of Western society. In Western society (generally European and American), there are two standards of beauty: masculine (how a man should appear to be considered beautiful, or handsome) and feminine (how a woman should appear to be considered such). But in much of what I've seen in my art and history studies, the Asian aesthetic leans towards only one standard of beauty that encompasses both genders on nearly equal ground. More often then not (90% of the time), I look at a doll sculpt that is without body or faceup and see it as making a lovely female, when in fact it's supposed to be male. This makes sense when you take historical Asian aesthetic in art and culture into account.

As for objectifying the males through making them feminine in style of dress and hair and makeup, it takes much more than that to objectify anything, but it certainly does make it easier to do. I fully admit I'm a girly girl and I like it, and the men I've been attracted to both in reality and as dolls were never feminine in appearance, but rather distinctly masculine. Personality wise, they were not crude, as most masculine men I've met and interacted with are not the crude caricatures you see in sitcoms and commercials. Even my gay friends are not the feminine style gay men, they come off as more metro in appearance than gay, if not outright manly.

I don't personally like to have to guess if someone is male or female, as it's a bit disconcerting. While some people are technically both or neither, it does throw me off in learning more about them as people, as my mind and behavior were raised a certain way. I mean no offense to anyone in this, it's just in a social situation, you treat each gender a bit differently, in both Western and Asian cultures. So when you can't tell, you end up not knowing how to act. You could "treat everyone the same", but then, which "same treatment" do you go with? See how I get confused? It's not a matter of prejudice, just confusion.

Most reference in art, literature, and history to cross-dressing are employing it to comedic effect (Shakespeare in particular was a master at it). I don't read yaoi or anything, so I can't vouch for it's effect, but many people who make their male dolls look feminine seem to enjoy reading that genre. I realize that's a generalization, but I've yet to see any specific ones who have mentioned reading anything at all that don't.

As to why this is all done, another friend of mine thought that straight women seemed to like yaoi because it had two males together, so they got to see two beings they found attractive interact. I don't really personally understand this at all, but there was a bit of sense in that explanation.

As for objectifying and sexualizing male dolls in backstory or appearance, that's a tough question. These dolls are objects in the first place, so it's hard to consider them "objectified" in the sense that a person would be. But, as they resemble human beings rather closely, they get personified and become representations of life in how their owners see it or wish it to be. I most often see rape used in a Mary Sue style to induce pathos for their character, and make them into a victim of circumstance, which is mostly, well, a Mary Sue--bad writing. There are lots of ways to make a character sympathetic without making them a victim or an object of pity. I even used these techniques myself when I was waaayyy less mature, though not on my male characters (of which I have really very few, but my most frequent roleplaying friends usually have mostly males, so it works out in a gender balance way).

Mostly, I think that those posters who mention it might have something to do with trying to understand the other gender, or put it in a context of familiar ground for them, have come the closest to making sense. Whether the doll owners in question know it or not, it's hard to say.

 

Because it's Yaoi fangirlism.
In that genre, it's "okay" or rather a commonly accepted plot device, to have males that are feminine in all but certain anatomical details, and then to use cheap and stilted writing techniques like making the character a pitiable victim of horrible things that are not their fault, in order to engender sympathy from the reader and try to make you interested in the fate of their character. Of course one of the worst things that could happen to you that isn't your fault is rape, so melodramatic or amateur writers tend to grab straight for that. There are plenty of other backgrounds a character could have to make them interesting, but a general female audience likes to feel sympathetic for characters they read about, so the Victim card gets played til it's dead and then rezzed for another go.

Why Yaoi fangirls (and almost all of them are girls- I've met plenty of nice gay boys and they generally find the whole Yaoi-fan thing disturbing or weird) are interested in Yaoi, or the melodramatization of an over-sexed, unrealistic portrayal of male gay relationships, is entirely beyond me. It's a whole 'nother can of worms and so I will touch briefly on my theories.
Boy = hot, so boy+boy=more hot?
And they want to see a sexy relationship that they could never imagine themselves as part of- it's a safe psychological distance.
Maybe they want to make the male feminine to make him more identifiable while retaining the two other angles I just mentioned.

Personally, Yaoi does nothing for me. It's a trend in the doll hobby because it's a huge trend in anime/manga. Beautiful, soft faced men can still be painted and portrayed as masculine in behavior and characteristic appearance, but until Yaoi gets old, you won't be seeing much of that.

 

Umm. I don't have any crossdresser but I guess my boy is pretty feminine in look... but I personally don't like gender roles at all, and so I myself act pretty gender neutral I think. It's natural my boy should also be pretty gender neutral. Even though atm he has purple hair (which is awesome btw), his personality is neither particularly male or female. The things that make his personality are things any normal person could have as part of their story.

I do like sensitive more androgynous males in real life, but males wearing dresses and skirts is a total turn off (because that isn't very gender neutral is it?). It all for me comes from moving toward the center line. Distinctly crossing over, I have little interest in.

I thought it would be interesting to note, by the way, that the biblical portrayal of Jesus shows him to be also sensitive and of course very caring, and crying, and having many aspects we would now attribute to women. Considering that western culture is built upon Christianity, it's sad that this didn't last.

I also agree with the people who say we westerners are looking at an asian product through western eyes. Asians just ARE more androgynous, so it makes sense that their dolls would be. Crossdressing by males in general seems to be less weird in Japan as well. Even if it is just in anime, dramas, and popculture etc, that still says something, because you don't see it in western shows and popculture much.

 

Rosslyn sums up my attitude on this as well.

My biggest peeve with much of the yaoi fandom is that most of the yaoi writers I've encountered have no idea how to write men as MEN. Instead, the "men" are "men" in name only, and their behavior, emotional makeup and mentality renders them merely women who happen to have penises. It's actually rather disrespectful to men, gay or straight.