Females as males? (Objectifying "males")

I really fail to see why the thought of female modded or female like male dolls have become are considered to be skirting the lines of objectifying males. I have both girl mod males and "masculine" males (and no, they aren't sexual towards each other) so I'll add my opinions. I have some very beautiful boys that were "intended to be girls" I suppose but really there is no "boy" mold that would suit their look so "girl" molds it is. However, they are not running around in skirts. They don't wear bows in their hair. They are men after all, not every man that is gay/feminine/pretty is also female-like in nature. However, I'm glad that male characters that enjoy female clothes and styles are wearing bows and petticoats, what's important in life is being yourself no matter who thinks your strange. As doll owners who can look ridiculous to the outside world, I'm a little surprised we're being judgemental with each other and our choice of dolls in our own hobby.

I am a woman myself and I do enjoy fashion. I don't see myself ever getting a mature female doll because I could just as well dress myself and be pleased. I also like dressing up male friends and this has carried on into my doll hobby, I really love styling my dolls and expressing a side of myself creatively that I don't desire to wear and/or look like myself. What I am attracted to buying is different sorts of boy dolls, different ages of girl dolls such as my YoSD. Now that I think of it, I could enjoy a mature female doll if she was masculine or more gender neutral as I can appreciate that but I don't chose to do so personally.

Dolls are little simulations of humans I feel and if one wants to deny it or not, there are men walking around in skirts as we speak as well as women who could pass for a man. That is life and dolls are art imitating life in my opinion. While my girl-mods are pretty and I suppose one to two might be considered "feminine", I don't think I've ever posed them with spread legs or any other highly sexual way that would make one uncomfortable. That's not to say I think it's wrong to do so, everyone can do what they want with their doll in my opinion and if I don't like it, I know how to use the back button. It seems ridiculous to me that doll owners are judging others as well as their dolls because they feel uncomfortable with what they see.

If people are offended by males that are feminine in the doll world that's quite sad as the real world also has feminine males and they deserve respect as much as anyone else. Lastly, which is my opinion on most topic of what's offensive in debate, minding one's business seems to be a lost art.

 

Here are my theories/musings:

Is it a power thing? The doll owners who usually objectify or feminize male dolls are female. By making their dolls resemble the "weaker sex," do they feel like they have a control over those characters not afforded to them in real life with real men?

Is it a mothering thing? Are we mistaking childlike qualities for femininity? Maybe by making a boy doll helpless and sensitive, females are better able to step into the role of caregiver and sympathizer, a role that they are traditionally predisposed to take on.

Does it represent a mix of childlike and mature feelings within ourselves? Playing with dolls is typically a child's activity. Sex is typically an adult's activity. As adults with a hobby that could be considered childlike, are doll owners (straight females especially) combining fondness for dolly dress-up with desire for the opposite sex by being attracted to male dolls, then dressing them up as females or giving them female characteristics?

Is it an inner tension thing? I wrote some (awful) fanfiction as a teen that dealt with a lot of violent and sexual issues. Looking back, I think it was a way for me to explore my teenage anger and sexuality in a way that wasn't destructive to me or anyone else. I feel a lot more mentally balanced now that I've grown up some, but of course everyone has various issues that are hard for them to express. Maybe dolls are a way to explore deviant behavior (such as rape) and sexual experimentation without having to act them out or discuss them in real life.

Is it a societal thing? Most male models these days are thin and hairless. It seems to be what society finds beautiful. Since BJDs are above all beautiful, is the feminization of male dolls simply reflecting modern beauty standards?

Is it a mystique thing? Throughout history, androgyny has been associated with beauty and mystery (take the Mona Lisa as the most obvious example). Perhaps the objectified feminine male is as much a fantasy character as the elf or the demon.

I'm not a fan of the effeminate male doll myself. I like my male dolls to resemble the men to whom I am attracted in real life, but then again I'm not a fantasy fan either, so all my characters resemble people you might encounter every day. I don't have a problem with the concept (after all, the world is a diverse place and you may very well encounter feminine males on a daily basis), but I do really wonder why it's so prevalent. I imagine that if one were to take a survey of real people and compare it to a survey of BJD characters, one would find a heck of a lot more gay/feminine BJDs than real men. What does bother me a little is the objectification (of both male and female characters), but I expect that most people who write about rape and "sluttiness" and whatnot are able to separate real life from fiction and don't actually condone harmful behavior between real people.

 

This is a really interesting debate. I like to write stories ocassionally. I'm not saying they're good. I have found from experience that as a female, if I try to write a story from a male first person perspective that guy always turns out femnine and usually gay. In the same turn, I had a third person story in my head about a guy. He managed to be a regular guy, not too overly masculine and not too feminine. He went to school, hung out with friends, dated a girl (a first for a male charater of mine), etc. I like this character so much that I got him in doll form. Since interacting with him on a first person basis he has become much less masculine and more bi-sexual. What I'm getting down to is that as a female I have a hard time hanging onto a masculine persona. It's difficult and unnatural to think in a way that is common to the opposite gender. Some people my intentionally have feminine guys, but for me it is not intentional.

At the same time, I wanted a male doll because for me, the male body is the epitomy of sexuality. Females do not hold my interest physically. Since dolls are esentially a thing of beauty I want a male because to me, he is much more beautiful. Back to the other side, as a female it is much easier to relate to another female. Since my doll has become a silent companion, he is easier to relate to if he has simmilar thoughts and feelings to me. I believe it is this discrepancy, for me at least, that has lead to me owning a feminine male doll.

 

This. Yep. A large part of these kind of writers/character creators making their males more feminine might stem, possibly, from either a dislike of what they perceive to be typical male behaviors, or from having no idea how the male psyche tends to work naturally and so they try to make the character less male and therefore more comprehensible. It's as if they find male traits negative or undesirable, in their opinion and preference.

Like here, you seem to be saying that males are harder for you to write "straight" and masculine, because you're not a masculine male. Perfectly logical.
Of course there are also writers who seem to be able to get around that and write convincingly from the opposite gender viewpoint, but it is rare. I'm told I can do this relatively well, but my brain doesn't function like a typical female's. ( I have Asperger's Syndrome, a kind of autism that makes many of the emotional reasoning systems typical to women an utter mystery to me.) It's possible my more objective viewpoint of psychological gender tendencies may be what lets me write and create relatively convincing masculine characters.

 

I'm a woman and have no problem writing, creating, or even role-playing OCs that are male. Maybe it's because I grew up with two brothers and have always had guy friends and been pretty tomboyish, but I'm more likely to write a boyish girl than a girlish boy, and the men who have read my portrayals of male characters find them perfectly believable.

I think a huge thing to remember is that this hobby originated in Japan, and in Japan a huge part of the entertainment culture is overly feminine and gay males. The whys and wherefores of that are a matter unto themselves, really. There is also, from what I have seen, a view of gay men as being the "perfect men". They have feminine features and mannerisms, they're not scared of being emotional, and they're not always trying to get into your pants. Stereotypes, yes, but that's something people see, and since male BJDs tend to look feminine, it makes the step even easier. I think what Luciana was saying plays into this as well.

 

it really is an interesting topic, i have seen many photos of girly boys, super feminine face with male bodies, i go for the boy boy girl girl, but fascinates me to see what people come up with.

 

Somebody has probably covered this already BUt, here i go anyway... I haven't actually seen that much of this but I do think that the female of the species has only recently been liberated enough to express their ideas on sexuality for a relatively short time. What we are seeing now is something that women were never allowed to explore before. Our own sexual identities and how we were meant to express ourselves were always handed to us by a male dominated society.

I'm not an expert but I think even as short a time ago as Victorian times, for example, a woman who openly seemed to enjoy sex was considered mad, sometimes locked away and even lobotomized in Western society. Women were meant to submit to sex but have no real desire or imagination on that subject. Women, doll owners, are now exploring what they find erotic, and objectifying men and crossing gender divides is all part of that.

I think the tables are just turning a little and let's face it, the boys have had it all their own way for far too long.

 

Er, you don't know many gay people do you? Being a gay woman myself, I know a lot of gay men who ENJOY being like a "woman with a penis". Most of them are drag queens, but not all. These are what is called fem-boys, and there are tons of them. They are proud of their femininity and even go as far as calling themselves "girl" and all that. Then there are the masculine gay guys who are male 100% just they date other men. They don't hate the fems and the fems don't hate them. In fact I know quite a few couples who are like those "yaoi" couples, one being much more feminine than the other.

Then there are us lesbians who are "men with a vagina" like my girlfriend and I. I'm more chapstick, but she is a stone butch to the core. She's called "sir" all the time! xD So do we find yuri girls who look and act like men but are women a stereotype and disrespectful to all lesbians? No! So why would the fem boys? We want tolerance, and although a lot of us don't read yaoi/yuri (I don't) doesn't mean we find it repulsive. That is one more way we are becoming more welcomed by people, so we'll accept it.

As for my dolls, I am planning on making a butch girl in the future. It'll be hard cause she'll bind her breasts so I'll need either need a male torso or sand the boobies down, but having a lesbian doll is natural to me. All my dolls are gay, cause I just can't stand them hetero dollies! ;3 No offense, straighties.

 

What I really find funny in thios debate is the coming up of Yaoi/Yuri/shounen-ai/shoujo-ai and everyother homosexual-love name there is in japanese. Really we should just use english, its h-o-m-o-s-e-x-u-a-l relationships. Girl for girl, boys for boys, may it be in Asia or in America its all the same thing so its really weird to use other nations words for it ;3

Anyway, on to the debate since, while I cannot really add anything else to it, I would like to have my word xD

All this really depends on the opinion of everyone, personnaly I have absolutely nothing against anyone, like everyone else I sometimes have this little stereotype/racist/sexist remark but its normal in the kind of society we live in.
Some people in the hobby have moments where they want this or that kind of doll, they created a character for this or that and wanted a doll for it and a lot of times after a while they will change whatever they did becasue they found out that it was only because everyone else was doing it that they were doing it too, and thats reality.
A lot of people find it awesome to have the most girliest male doll ou there because its a kind of "trend" going on.
Girly guys exist in this world and I do not see why it should bother anyone if someone makes a girly doll.
Masculine women exist too, and there are dolls like that too.

There is a doll for everykind of people in the world and it should not bother anyone since the world is like that :P

Also... for a reason or another... I think its just that I like pretty dolls and for some reason a lot of male molds are very pretty, I seem to only have girly guys in my crew xD
I have a lot of characters in mind, they are almost all different, and for some reason the girly/gay/effeminated ones came out sooner then the manly ones.... its just the way it is and when more manly dolls get out that will go with the character, I will have a manly doll, may it be gay or not, thats to be seen tohugh xD

I think that is all... sorry if its a little weird to read... I have a lot of difficulty saying whats on my mind xP

 

This debate is really interesting, I can echo what Rook said but coming at it from a straight perspective. I have long-time gay male friends who are very femenine but I also have 1 straight male friend who also displays a lot of very femenine traits in the way he thinks and acts. When we were teenagers he faced quite a bit of pressure from gay and straight friends alike to "come out", I guess people assumed that he must be gay and in denial. Many years on and he is happily married with children and totally hetero, he doesn't have any problems with being a "femenine" straight man, and society seems to have found other things to pick at.

Sexuality/personality, particularly as a young teen, is never as black and white as the old Boy/Girl stereotypes makes it appear, we can go anywhere in the privacy of our own heads and maybe these doll owners are just exploring things with their dolls? Some of the doll owners on here are very young so the dolls are maybe a trail form of experimenting with gender roles?

 

In part, I think that the feminized male feels 'safer' to women, and perhaps more identifiable. He is beautiful in familiar ways that we see in ourselves or are encouraged to promote in ourselves. So many feminized males are missing body hair and don't ever have to shave their faces; things women don't have to deal with and are told (in the case of body hair) is unwanted and bad on themselves.

When I write, I find myself drifting towards the feminine with my male characters, simply because I am a woman and that feels comfortable rather than trying to explore the male mind indepthly. If may just be an effort to make sure a male character or doll FEELS male to everyone else. But since femme males are acceptable in some circles (anime, some art), there is no need to push the doll to be incredibly male.

 

I am actually looking around for a male doll. My search has been made purely based on height.

But when I see a doll in the range that I'm looking I step back and look at the face.
Is he too girly, I don't want him to look like a girl. I want him to be his own person. Would he be a good partner for her?

He will be bought as a companion for another doll that I'm planning to buy, so I want him to have a similar style, but still be masculine. I was thinking about modding a female doll of the same brand that I'm getting the girl, but I thought "What about the face? He can't have a girl's face..."

Personally, I think it depends on your doll's story. Just like people, dolls are all different. Some are more feminine while others are masculine.

 

To be honest, I think that it is pretty simple. No in depth analysis from me. XD When people say "because I like it" that is basically why. It may be for different reasons for different people but it is still because we like it. (I am a yaoi fan, who likes pretty boys) Why? Well for me, most women like pretty things, right? So why not have pretty boys too? They generally are more sexually appealing to women, as they are considered more "beautiful". Simple as that. Same for men liking pretty women. They are appealing because they are beautiful. If women can be thought of as beautiful, why not men? A man can be masculine, but also feminine. Having the masculine along with the feminine makes for what would be a perfect guy. Think about it. The gender is male, but is as pretty and stunning as a woman. It is more pleasing to the eye. It is all just a fantasy of what some women like, in a perfect world. It could also make the male more sensitive, which is considered a feminine quality. Many women look for sensitivity in a man. Someone to understand them. Like in a fairytale. And I don't see anything wrong with objectifying a male or a female, like porn stars or an imagination, as long as you don't do it in real life and know that people in real life are not like that. It is just for sexual pleasure. Something that is not attainable in real life, that is pleasing to women and men. Different strokes for different folks is what it comes down to. Same with fantasy rape that is meant in a sexual manner. It can be a turn on because you/or a stranger are not in control. It could also be humiliation that turns you on. It is all OK because you would never do something like that in real life, or never wish or want that to happen in real life to yourself or others. vampireanneke hit the nail on the head with that one.

 

A lot of DoA members like yaoi, and of course, there are some sexual M/M situations in manga and anime of that nature. A lot of people like yaoi enough to write their own stories. That's to be expected. I like Historical Romance, and of course, I've tried to write some in the past. Who better to write it than the people who read it?

But part of me wants to think there may be something else. We all know crime against anyone is bad. But I think the media tends to incorporate women being raped or abused much more than they do men. I think it may be because a lot more rapes of women are more 'believable' or accepted among most people. No one wants to believe that men are able to be raped, but they can. It probably has to do with our female and male gender roles; women are supposed to be 'weaker' overall, no matter what, and men are supposed to be strong. So hearing that a man is raped - something most people only believe to happen with women - confuses a lot of people, and they don't believe it.

So, I have to commend people in some way by making it known that a lot of what can be done to women can also be done with men. Men can be victims of rape and spousal abuse just as much as women can. But you never really hear about it because they tend to be 'women things'.

But also, when you talk about having them posed like pin-ups and such, I think that's just weird, and I don't get it. I think it's been done to a point where it's lost any trace of originality. But it's your doll, so you can do whatever you want. It's just that I, personally, tend to sort of roll my eyes at male dolls who like to cross-dress, and act super feminine. Why don't we have any girls who dress like boys? That would be something new.

 

Couldn't put it better, even though I posted about it!

 

androgyny and such is really popular these days. i don't know why it would be thought of as "objectifying" though. i find that a lot of back-stories involve some kind of traumatic event, whether the character is male or female. i don't believe there is always a deeper meaning to it, like someone said above, some people just like it. just like a boy who would like a girl with larger breasts, some girls like boys that are more feminine. i guess the reasoning behind it depends on the person. some might have strange reasoning (control issues?) and some just might think it's beautiful.

 

hmm, I'm probably echoing many others.. I have a fair share of male characters with trauma that, if I'd given to a female people would be appalled at me. And well, I'm appalled at me for giving some of them their histories. But, at the same time, I don't shy away from giving female characters the same harsh treatment.

I don't mind objectifying either gender.. the human body is gorgeous. And even a very masculine male is very attractive in the same position as a very feminine female. I do however get a bit urked... when people tend to make male characters females, but with male genitalia. Yes, there are males in the real world like this... but, as a reluctant part of the yaoi fangirl base... or as me and my friend prefer ourselves fanwomen(since, we like decidedly more mature males in our gay smut, like it to be smutty, and want them to be /men/) I myself have an aestetic taste of effeminate/androgynous men /and/ women.

That said.. it's no more correct to objectify a male, as it is a female. But, it's seen as more tolerated.... to quote a friend from her comic...

character A:"it's not very nice to call someone fat"
character B:"but it's perfectly acceptable to call someone skinny?"

it's as if the males are 'skinny'... and the females are 'fat' if, that makes any sense what so ever..
*goes off to objectify some males*

 

I suppose some people think "A male can take it" While they would pity a female if the same thing happened to her.

As for the whole girl ymen being gay or the girly man dolls being gay. gender roles and sexuality have nothing to do with one another so that doesn't go hand in hand. I'm a lesbian but if you saw me walking down the street with my dress and high heels you wouldn't be able to 'tell' since I'm taking part in a stereotypically "straight female" gender role.

It might be that many of these people were influenced by japanese pop culture, or maybe there own sexual desire. After all a lots of straight men watch girl on girl porn, so why wouldn't some women want to have some guy on guy action for themselves?

I don't think it objectify men. There are plenty of men gay and straight that are very sensually active, even if this is expressed in a female way. There are plenty of straight men that put on female clothes cause it makes them feel sexy. It might be a trend but the trend is based on real life. Just like in Thailand were there are 'drag queens' that have breast implants but still have male genitals. this happens in America to but I'm using Thailand because it's famous for these types of drag queens.

 

Why is it "okay" to sexualize and objectify male characters/dolls? (Is it okay?) Females appreciating the male form as a sexual object is perfectly acceptable these days.

Is objectifiying a feminized male different from objectifying a female? Hundred of years ago it would have been for a male audience - these days anyone can objectify both sexes with little condemnation.

And where does the influence and desire to do so come from? To answer this question would require me to write a book.

 

I gave myself concussion yesterday so this reply won't be as long as I'd like it to be xD

I'm not sure, from a personal stand point- why in everything I get into, be it roleplay or indeed dolls- I must have at least one girly boy, which by all accounts is a girl with a flat chest and a special little something down below- they dont have facial hair, even. I know it's odd, and I suppose it might have something to do with psychological aspects of myself and past, but at least I know it's definately not an unusual thing!

However, I do balance it out with proper men every time I make one- and women, in addition. I am interested to know where it all originated from though! Although in many texts I read in Classical Civilisation classes, the men are described to be beautiful, and young, often feminine boys would be paired with older men to be 'taught' about the ways of the world *cough* >> So no, I don't believe it's come about through modern crazes or Anime, although thats certainly likely for the sudden boost in our modern society.

I don't know, for me at the end of the day it's likely because- "they're adorable". Though mine are never highly sexualised, in fact most of them are quite shy and meek. I suppose the reason they aren't women is I find women incredibly hard to roleplay, and have no real interest in my own gender... but I like femininity, just not the bodies... does that make sense?

But yeah, that's me trying to rationalise my hobbies with a confuddled mind