Females as males? (Objectifying "males")

What I find strange about this topic is that some people think of it as wrong for men to wear make-up, skirts, long hair— anything "girly." But what about girls who don't wear make-up and dress in pants and baggy t-shirts and muck boots and cut their hair short? They aren't called cross-dressers or "masculine girls." Do you think girl dolls dressed this way would be mistaken for guys, and specifically, by BJD people who know that boy dolls have similarly styled "pretty faces?"

 

I agree entirely with Chessaphire

 

Thank you. This exactly what I want to say, and wouldn't have been able to get across.

I will admit, that I love the idea of a world with no gender stereotypes, where people just sort of do whatever feels right- but it is completely unrealistic. I incorporate it into my writing because of that- it allows me to dream up something rather than drawing off of real life. That said, I am a bit creeped out by the femme boy, as much if not more as I am drawn to idea of blurring gender lines.

I think it's interesting for myself to explore the idea of androgyny and role swapping, particularly because I find it somewhat creepy. It's an odd combination of "I don't want to look, but I want to see!" That said, I am guilty of some femminzation of my boys- I purposely make three of them sensitive and emotional, one of which likes colours like pink and yellow and wearing mary-jane shoes. However, I wouldn't describe them as un-masculine, in fact, for two in particular, their "femme" side is also distinctly wrapped up in their masculinity which plays a larger role in both characters. The third character is merely young, and shows every evidence of this being a temporary phase.

I like both masculine men, and the concept of a boy with a strong feminine perspective, if only because that is the only way that I can truly understand men, as I am female. I can only see them from a female perspective, and I have realized over the years that many of my male characters have a feminine perspective that is stronger than that which would be in a true male character. Still, I don't think this is bad, or in any way reflective of any negative characteristic. I think deep down all women yearn for a man who is more like them, while still bearing the physical aspects of a man. As women, we are drawn to the masculine form, even while we also encompass it in the feminine which is our perspective.

 

Could it be possible that some females are (or are subconsciously) angry for being constantly objectified in their society and take this out on their male doll (who they have complete control over)?

Though I haven't created any androgynous characters as of yet, I would only do so for a comical statement that plays off gender roles and stereotypes.

 

chessapphire1214, your question interests me. Personally, I want to approach genderf**k from the female side. I've always been fascinated by girl/women characters who dress as boys/men and thereby gain a freedom of movement and access to the worldlier male realms that they would not otherwise have had. Think Rosalind and Viola from Shakespeare, for instance, or, more recently, Nan from Tipping the Velvet. I'm having this outfit made for my Soulkid Apple, and I may have more male clothes made for her later. I think she will look well as a "pretty youth". But could she pass for male among the savvy DOA crowd? I honestly don't know.

 

I don't remember if I commented, but I will now;

Why is it "okay" to sexualize and objectify male characters/dolls?
Why? because they are dolls. The end. There is no 'okay' or 'not okay.' Besides, it gets people off. The same reason why some straight guys like traps. Why? "I dunno, it's hot." I have objectified female characters/dolls as well. It's your imagination as an artist and owner; Nobody can tell you what is right or wrong. If you're in the community, there are some things you should perhaps keep to yourself but that doesn't mean your dolls have to stop being that way,


Is objectifiying a feminized male different from objectifying a female?

Only if you make it that way.

And where does the influence and desire to do so come from?

Because I like them. I like traps, trannies, androgs, girlyboys, et cetera. Call it fetish. XD Besides, some people get off on abusive relationships, but the twist of it being a BOY instead of a girl just makes it better. Also, the anime Boku no Pico, I think, originally got me into feminine/submissive boys. It's got to do with power.... It's hard to explain. Also, they're pretty.

 

I have always found these twists in gender a bit odd. And this hobby is full of people that express themselves through their dolls, so it's no surprise that some of it would seem "weird" to others. Let people do to their dolls what they wish, if it bothers you, don't look or read their photo stories, blogs, etc.

 

Since I have not commented on this I guess I will. Its going to be a little difficult for me to hit of all the points brought up in this thread but I’ll try, also I’m only going to speak from personal preference and try not to get into generalization of certain groups and fandom’s.

I have one skirt-boy or girly boy character in one of my stories. Ive generally molded him after the androgynies types of boys in the music I listen to bands with cross dressing frountmen from England. No my effeminate boy has not been raped in the past, but he was a prostitute as a means to get heroine, he was a junkie. As far as personality, he usually employs his femmine looks to get what he wants, but is the loudest most easily agitated and quickest to a fight character I have. I consider him bisexual, and he is not unhinged when called a girl by other character and does consider it a complement. My only other gitly character is actually a drag queen at a club, and only cross dresses for show. Most of my character wear make-up because they are musicians or other whys its part of their character, but I don’t personally find make-up a feminizing thing, as I’m from the goth scene and men in make-up is commonplace there.


As to why a female makes skirt boy characters, I assume its something they’ve seen that they liked and chose to employ it in their own character creation. I have used the ‘I was raped’ in a back story before, but upon rewriting and rethinking, I found it to be not needed in characterization, so have not employed it as a technique in my writing again. I have in the past read a lot of fan fiction, and yes it’s a common thing there, but again I cant speak to why anyone else does it other than they find it a good standpoint for their characterization .

 

Looking at this from another perspective, though I agree with a lot of the posters in this thread, perhaps it is something of an issue of competition and body issues with the female owner and a female doll. The barbie syndrome, shall we say.

With BJDs being about customization and reflections of our inner selves, perhaps with male dolls we are more comfortable making them 'pretty', because then they are not competition with our own selves, because they are male and not necessarily accepted by society's standards. A boy in a skirt will always turn heads, for instance. So we are capable of expressing our creativity and ideals in the safety of what is considered taboo by the general public.

On the flip side of that, perhaps we shy away from over-feminizing female dolls because we are afraid on some core level that they will be prettier than us, and thus loved more than us. There are only a few female dolls that are chubby or small-breasted or slightly further out of the realm of the accepted 'ideal' of today's society. We have a harder time relating to them, not because of gender issues, but because of the way we view ourselves. This brings us back to the first point I made, in that males are safer to explore our perceptions of beauty, without feeling threatened or in competition with it.

Not the only reason. I don't think there's just one reason for such a complex phenomena, but this is a wonderful topic to explore it.

 

I'm suddenly thinking of Dee Dee Ramone and "53rd and 3rd".

Here's something I've been wondering about a lot ... what do the LGBT members of the board think about these style(s) of doll gender-play? For instance, does yaoi come off as naive? an archaic stereotype? romance-novel fantasy? gritty realism? (I'm not trying to make a value judgment here, just throwing out random what-ifs.) Would Mr. Random Gay Man on the Street find yaoi as head-scratching as, say, Ms. Random Lesbian Woman on the Street might find Hot Girl-on-Girl XXX Action porn made for het men?

I hope this isn't veering widely off-topic, but I really would be interested in hearing from the LGBT members of the board.

 

Not a lesbian here, but I'd have to say you're going to get as many answers on that from the LGBT community as you will from the straight. Specifically within the BJD hobby I have two friends, one gay and one trans and I was worried at first about offending them with some of my more over the top girly-boy characters. But once I asked them about it it turns out they were completely fine with it, hell, they're both more than happy when helping me decide between which two frilly pink shirts to buy for one of my boys or seeing my fluffy BL artwork. Outside the BJD hobby I've also had gay friends who have no problem with yaoi/yuri or were even avid fans of it themselves.

On the flip side I also know of those in the LGBT community who would prefer not to see/read such things and found it offensive. You can't paint the entire LGBT population with the same wide brush on how they will feel about girly-boy, butch girls, trans dolls, etc. because that population is made up of individuals and they will all think differently on the matter, just as you've already seen discussed on this thread as I'm sure not everyone who's posted thus far is a hetero female.

 

Absolutely. That was why I was interested in hearing from LGBT individuals on DoA.

 

Can't speak for other people, but I don't feel that way myself. I find guys attractive -- that's why I find things like yaoi, BL, and slash fiction appealing. It's the same reason guys think two girls together is hot. Only with men it's expected and accepted, where women are assumed not to have those kinds of erm, interests. I really dislike double standards. Also, when it's a feminine male instead of a female it keeps things from coming too close to real life -- it's a step removed which can make it more comfortable. Ok, so none of that was really a deep explanation of the whole phenomenon, but sometimes the simple answer is an accurate one.

I also just find playing with gender roles is fun. I only have one femmy boy right now and a number of my guys are also straight. But I do really enjoy having my one boy to dress up in frilly clothes -- he look so darn cute, who cares if it's become common place around here. I like it

I don't know if they'd be mistaken for guys or not, especially considering how many sculpts can look good as either male or female.

As for girls being able to dress guyish without flak -- well, I would say that there tends to be a lot less flak, but there's still pressure for girls/women to dress and groom themselves in particular ways. The reaction just isn't as strong as a guy who would dress like a girl which is rather disturbing if you stop to think about it -- if a guy having traits considered feminine is a negative thing, then what does this suggest about how women are valued?

 

Aww this thread is so interesting!!! I really think this BJD thing is all about expressing ourselves freely. We are grown up people but still learning and experiencing feelings and sensations and dreaming through our dolls. I think we live a bit through their bodies sometimes and when we create a charachter we are exploring ourselves and searching for new emotions, we are open to the new. I think androginy is part of this "doll playing" experience for many of us. As "dolls" we dare and we are not afraid, not guilty of our crazyness of trying new looks and postures... and share it with others! And this is soooo fun! Just wanted to say something and express my opinion. )