Females as males? (Objectifying "males")

I think part of it may be that, women dont really know how to have a male doll character, and understand it. because they arent men. and so by making them so close to beeing female they are more able to understand and create stories for them.
I also think that some of the people who have dolls like this perhaps had something bad happen in their own lives to give them a fear or dislike of men. and so by taking away their male dolls powerfull masculine features, they create a man that they can deal with, that isnt threatening or harsh. a Male that is still a man, but with the gentle elegance of a woman instead.
but thats just my personal feelings.

 

This is my odd opinion:

As Armeleia once explained to me, yaoi and boy love of a phenomenon in Japan that is about equal love.

So, on the flip side and from a Western stand point, I believe it all boils down to beauty and the quality of the expectations of women.

Women are expected to be the beautiful ones, to garner the attention of men, just as another Poster said. In turn, we are often the ones brutalised in stories about abuse, rape, and other such torment at the hands of men. When a man undergoes the same thing, all because of his eroticism and his increased standard of male beauty, it is an equality thing. Women are no longer the only ones who must present themselves to get men's attention, then in turn abused or mistreated because we had already put forth the effort of displaying our beauty. In this narrow band of feminine men, men are now living up to a standard of beauty women not only covet for themselves, but wish to see in what is around us; women are beautiful, they love to be surrounded by beauty.

Additionally, a beautiful male also fits in with our internally high standards of beauty; because women are expected to be "beautiful", women may like to see the same from men.

As a woman, I've seen my own partner leave the house without fixing his hair, or shaving. This is generally an acceptable range for men, but for a woman not to brush her? Not to at least wash her face, shave certain parts of her body? That is a no no. It is nice to see a man display a masculine form of equal beauty. This is probably why so many women enjoy actors, who are forced to take care of their bodies because they are in display. I know I love it when my partner fixes his hair, trims his beard and facial hair extra nice, and wears something more than just shaggy t-shirt and jeans. They look darn hot in that slightly fitted t-shirt!

That's just my thought.

 

Oh gosh, there's so much I want to comment on here.

Firstly, decadentarisu, I LOVE LOVE LOVE that you brought some of the ancient philosophers ideas into this. After reading from Critical Theory Since Plato (1992 revised edition) last school year, I was overjoyed to see you relating concepts I remember reading about to this.

I agree with you that our dolls and our characters are definately our own way of expressing and invoking pleasure through situations that are distanced from reality and therefore not as... um... shocking? I must find a quote for what I'm trying to say... Ah, here we go, "The image of passion is not passion itself." stated quite nicely by Mr. Ernst Cassirer. Our dolls are our way of expression, and what is horrific or shocking in reality can be expressed in a way that invokes emotion and feeling in the observers, but no where close to the experience were it to happen in reality. This is true throughout many, many writings, plays, movies, etc. not just our resin buddies. So, because of this, the sexualizing of males in a femine way (or even females in a feminine way XD) does come into play. It allows a person to invoke feelings (whether it be pleasure, disgust, angst, or what have you) in a safe controlled environment, which falls in line with what vampireannekke was saying.

Wow, that was jumbled and confusing... I hope that part makes sense, because I have more to say too.

I also agree with JennyNemesis that in our culture, males are not supposed to be seen as "beautiful". Which is quite strange, because in other animals males ARE supposed to be the beautiful ones, why are humans different?

I think that the androgynous male form is the way that is very often chosen to represent beautiful males (and I would stretch this and say [not in recent history] beauty in general). Now why that is I couldn't begin to guess, but it seems (to me) that throughout history that this proves to be true. For example, look at the ancient greek statues, or even Michelangelo's David, who although he is very DEFINATELY masculine, he sports a rather feminine posture and has very beautiful curly hair and softer facial features. Even angels have been represented as androgynous male figures. And then there are the Kabuki actors who play female roles. So I think that the embodiment of feminine characteristics within the male form is nothing new, and certainly not confined to Asian culture, although I admit that that in recent times that particular asthetic appeal is more Asian influenced.

I think that sexualizing and objectifying male and female characters is very much the same in theory, but different in practice because of what has been accepted by society. I'm not sure why the objectification of a male is seen as different from that of a female, because in reality it would usually be quite distressing to both parties. It would be interested to study further into the reasons behind that train of thinking.

Also, I think that much of the influences toward feminine males (on Den of Angels) DO come from Anime/Manga, and (in the case of the effeminate characteristics combined with homosexuality) Yaoi. Many of our newer members (and some of our older ones too) seem to be very interested in that subculture, and in turn influenced by it. I know that I'm one of the people influenced. *nodnod* Most definately! And yes, the concepts of an effeminate/androgynous male can be traced through history, but lots of it on DOA (I think) comes from Manga/Anime related interests. ^^;;

I know I restated a lot of what has already been said in this thread, but I felt that I did provide some examples that have not been previously discussed as well, hopefully that was sufficient enough for an acceptable post!

P.S. Hooray for Dandies. ^__^

 

On rereading, my post just repeats what others have already said, so I deleted it.

 

For me, the difference is in the way the dolls "appear." I do find my Dollshe harem to be an eroticized and objectified form of male beauty - but they retain sheer masculinity in both nature and character for me. Although I find some of the female-to-male modded dolls to be gorgeously androgynous, the attraction to that particular kind of objectified beauty is different...and I think that's the gist of what this thread is asking.

 

This is a GREAT thread -- I've really enjoyed reading through it!!

One thing that I haven't seen brought up . . . in modern Western society, images of two women together (whether they're perceived as lesbian or bisexual) have often been seen as being appealing to men -- in a way, their sexuality has been put on display for heterosexual men's entertainment.

With yaoi, two men together sexually are often being viewed by *women* for their entertainment/prurient interest/enjoyment -- it's almost a reversal of the hetero-porn-norm.

Not all feminized or androgynous boy dolls (or anime characters) are gay, but I do think that there's some of that ideology attached to it -- these are beautiful men who are predominantly being displayed and played with by women.

(Interestingly, the male doll collectors on here seem to be fairly evenly split between collectors of male and female dolls, and the collectors themselves seem to be a mix of gay and straight -- and I haven't seen gay male collectors predominantly owning 'feminized' male dolls -- in fact, if there's a numerical superiority at all, it's towards female dolls and masculine-if-sometimes-dandyish male dolls.)

There is also often a strong V-kei and Goth influence in the male dolls on DoA, and those are two subcultures where it's not only okay but encouraged to dress flamboyantly, androgynously, or in ways that are traditionally-in-modern-times reserved for women. (Keep in mind, too, that men in earlier ages often dressed in extremely peacockish ways, from hose and codpieces to pumpkin pants and curled-toe platform shoes!)

I'm a Goth, so I'm used to seeing men in fishnet shirts and vinyl skirts (or tight leather trousers and stompy boots) -- I don't necessarily see it as 'feminization' to wear clothes that are showy, dramatic, or showcase the male form. I do agree, though, that there are quite a few dolls on here who take it a step further, whether it's through alteration of the body itself or through style of dress and presentation.

It's a really interesting mixture of influences, and I'm enjoying the psychoanalysis going on in this thread . . . looking forward to seeing where it goes!

-- A

 

This is great-- but let's take that further, your mention of the David (who is 'the' famous worldwide standard of masculine beauty). Since there's nothing really feminine about him, per se, what if it's not any kind of androgyny that we worship? What if it's his youth? In youth, males & females share similar features, structures, & textures. Secondary sex characteristics come in after they grow up. When a young boy is revered for his beauty, is that a nod to our "Hermaphrodite Ideal" (as mentioned on pages 1 & 2)?

Throughout history (I mean Shakespeare to castrati, beyond the Kabuki), young boys have been used as stand-ins for women, because women weren't suitable for singing, acting, or socializing with in public. The young boy has the higher voice, no beard, smoother skin, slimmer body, and smaller size than all the other men-- so while he is among those men, he is, for all intents & purposes, the Woman, and he gets desired as such. Once he passes puberty, he's no longer the androgynous ideal. He's now All Man, and his womanliness is gone, so his beauty is now useless. Even today, we kinda do the same thing to our child-actor idols, losing our passion for them once they stop being cute. Like kittens. (I wonder if Michelangelo stopped inviting his David over for wine & posing sessions once he turned 25. ^^)

And inuchick brings up an interesting point about angels-- they're almost universally described as sexless, yet depicted as softened-masculine. They're supposed to be our ideals, so they must be beautiful, but they can't be given too much earthiness (i.e. true maleness or femaleness). Aaaaand my expertise runs out there, since I'm not an art history major. Maybe somebody else could talk more about that? Love to hear it. There is a LOT of "angel"-ness about these dolls, & this hobby, and I'm not just talking about our forum-name.



A quick PS to Ashbet:

Aha! That's what I was looking for in my earlier babble-post about rock-star types. The VIEWER'S experience also matters! After too many decades at the same sort of clubs Ashbet's probably gone to, I'm so used to seeing boys in everything from fishnets to corsets... so after all that, seeing a plain fishnet t-shirt & tight leather pants looks masculine to me. In fact, if you can see a person's chest through a transparent t-shirt like that, and he has no breasts and no bra, that's pretty darn male to me. ;D

And Kim, of course I'll marry you. *smooch* I want the wedding to be at Wrestlemania 24.

 

Sex is important to most humans (after all, without that instinct, there wouldn't be very many of us around, would there?) So naturally, humans like to look at other humans that are sexy or engaged in sexual activity. Both male and female bjds are beautiful, and highly posable, making them excellent subjects for sexually themed photoshoots and stories.

Now as for girly-boys. I can only speak for myself, because I have a feeling that it varies from person to person. I find androgeny interesting. I like to see what it beautifull about men and what is beautiful about women combined to make one truly gorgeous human being. Since I find that attractive, seeing such a resin person in a sexual situation, would be pretty darn hot in my book. It bugs me that society views gender so rigidly.

I personally am less interested in depictions of violent sex, though dolls are a safe way to explore the darker side of human nature. Seeing a doll in a bad situation, may also create sympathy from the viewer. Just because a doll has a tragic past or is having an unpleasant sexual confrontation, doesn't mean that the viewers are supposed to side with the perpetrator. Not all fiction is filled with sunshine, bunny rabbits, and candy, just as not all of real life is wonderfull. There is a lot of strife in our world, and it's only natural that it appears in stories. And since sex and relationships are important to many people, that means it's also normal to stories that depict sex and relationships gone very awry.

 

This is an neat discussion, especially since I was looking at the whole "girly-boy" thing from a completely different angle. The heavy makeup, the feminine clothing, the cut-off female breast- I didn't see these as objectifying men. Rather, I saw them as a way to further degrade the "traditional" qualities that women possess. It's like: "See my doll? Looks like woman, dresses like a woman, acts like a woman...but it's BETTER. Why? Because it's a MAN!"
Coupled with many statements that I have seen from posters saying that they don't "like" other women, or can't identify with them, I took this "movement" to be anti-"girl". I saw it as a deliberate mockery of womanhood. This is an angle that I never thought of! I will be following this thread with great interest!

 

Oh wow. That IS a new angle on this! I never found feminizing a man to have any bearing on womanhood... unless you're talking about drag-queens, who are doing a burlesque of femininity (for good or ill). Does anybody else detect any whiff of misogyny in the works? I myself still cannot smell it. But I'm interested to hear more about that.

You may have also hit onto something, with women [female doll owners] who aren't comfortable with other women. Or may not even be comfortable with their own womanhood. So: what drives some of these folks to have girly-boy dolls, so they can address their own femininity from afar; and what drives some to have manly-boy dolls, to avoid having to look at it at all?

And dear brilliant Hobby, I am with you all the way about the Barbie-bod mockery-of-women tradition. But that topic is a whole different oyster for us to debate elsewhere-- I think we're about to get a "treatment/objectification of women" debate thread created soon. So, save that thought!

This present topic is SO juicy that my big posts are tripping over each other, trying to respond to everyone's insights. Sorry.

 

Fascinating discussion happening here! So much has already been (very well) said, though, that I hope I'm not just going in circles...

I might be a little off topic, but all the talk of androgyny takes me straight to an Ursula K. Le Guin book, The Left Hand of Darkness. It's all about a human male's experience of a planet of people that are essentially hermaphrodites, both male and female at once. And it's written by a woman. Some extremely interesting thoughts on gender in that read. Imagine a society where everyone had the same potential responsibilities and reproductive abilities... nothing divided down gender lines.

In fact, it's a little like the yaoi equal love idea that was mentioned earlier. Everyone wants to be valued the same, yes? In relationships too. It strikes me that even with all the progress this world has made, women still feel like they are not valued as highly as men, in many respects. I don't mean to speak for everyone, of course. But I know there are days I wish I was born with a Y instead of that pesky second X... I know I've got a crew of relatively boyish boys for that very reason.

I think these dolls tend to embody a very androgynous and "human" beauty, something that goes above and beyond gender. When someone is really stunning, but you can't tell right away (if at all) if they're male or female... it's an intriguing experience. Surely there's an appeal in that as well, and these beautiful dolls are perfect for that kind of experimentation?

 

Honestly I don't see any difference in objectifying a female or a male doll. I mean... they're dolls... they are objects. But even in human beings I don't see any difference, why should it be bad to objectify one gender and not another? Honestly I don't have a problem with either, but I may have a twisted view in this.

Where the influence and desire comes from I don't even know and I have one of these dolls. *L* I think sometimes it's just there, there isn't always a deep psychological reason for it. (I think...)

 

There is some practicality in this, I believe. It was mentioned earlier on in the thread. When you want a different body style or shape that you cannot get elsewhere for a smaller male character, you turn to the very last option – a female body, modded to be a boy. I have been considering this for my MNF Elf Shiwoo because I don’t like his slim face on the boy MiniFee body. I think it’s out of proportion. But at the same time, the shape of the girl body is just a bit too feminine for me, so I’m stuck.

So far, I’ve read a lot of theory based on the first two questions, which seem to be coming from a majority that doesn’t “sexualize/objectify” their own male dolls…

I am perfectly guilty of liking 'yaoi' and having a girly boy.

And reading this thread has actually made me a little embarrassed for myself, and maybe even a bit ashamed. I didn't realize that there were such strong feelings about this out there.

I'm still a young woman. I'm only eighteen years old. I have a collection of manga in my old room that's sitting and collecting dust. The only reason it's still there is because I like the art and the memories the collection holds. I have few, if any, anime DVDs. I even wrote my fair share of horrible fan-fiction, sticking boys with boys and hating the lead female role. I was even guilty of Mary Sues when I was in middle school.

But you know what? I grew out of it. My tastes changed and my writing styles changed. Just like with my dolls! My tastes changed and I grew up.

I got my first doll when I was 16. But he was a boy. Cargo shorts, long-sleeved tees. I didn't find him aesthetically pleasing in any sort of glamorous or sexual sense, so I never thought to portray him that way. When I got my MNF Chiwoo twins, however, it changed a bit. Suddenly, my boys weren't really .. boys anymore. I was, and still am, completely enamored by the MiniFee boy body. I love their legs, their feet, their hands, their cute little stomachs... Their subtle muscles.. I love the body.

So, I began to see these dolls in a new light. Suddenly, my MNF Chiwoo was in skirts and silly stockings. He had long, curly hair and thigh-high fishnet stockings! But he also had sneakers, as well as red pumps. I think that I was mainly exploring the possibilities and different aspects of beauty the mold had to offer because now I no longer have those items. My MNF Chiwoo twins are no longer in those sort of things. Their characters have changed because of my exploration, and as I sit and reflect on it, they've grown as dolls like I did as a teenager.

I don't know why other people 'objectify' their male dolls. I can say that I did not, do not, and WILL not have only 'girly' boys. Why I did it, I never thought about, but I guess I was just exploring all of my possibilities. I think that I have a rather handsome MNF Lishe boy, who has not been in a pair of stockings ever, and I fully intend on rebuying a MNF Ruth because his roguish, masculine possibilities appeal to me. So for me, playing with the gender lines of these dolls and exploring their sexual possibilities was a growing experience for both me and them. It could be the very same for other people.

It could be because it's easy, and it's something that they know (maybe subconsciously) will be accepted by a group of people here on DOA. We all want to be accepted and to become a part of something, so that's one way to look at it.

 

I absolutely must read that book! I love the idea of people being hermaphrodites, however unfortunately it's pretty much restricted to invertebrates ):

There's been so much said in this thread, some that I agree with, some that I disagree with, all of it quite interesting. Honestly, I could go on for ages on a topic like this, but I think I'll keep it simple and just say:
Postgenderism FTW!
(which doesn't quite relate to the original topic, but is basically my final analysis of many/most issues surrounding gender :3)

 

Fascinating discussion-- thanks to Armeleia for starting it, and to everyone else that's contributed.

First, because I think it's important to understand everyone's frame of reference: I am a guy-- a straight guy, and probably not exceptionally far from the "average" male, if there is such a thing. I like boobs, explosions, and steak (can I get all three together? Awesome! ) Okay; I'm exaggerating a wee bit, but for the sake of this discussion I'd rather have people overestimate my stereotypical male behavior/viewpoint than underestimate it.

First: I've got no academic backing to support this (funneled my education into elementary education), but I wonder if there isn't some possibility that societally we've created-- and emphasized-- female sexuality as such an ideal that, subconsciously, we've all begun to buy into it a little bit, both males and females. Time and time again, we're presented with an oversexualized view of the ideal female form, with its just-broad enough shoulders, narrow waist, slender-yet-shapely limbs, etc. Is it possible that we've been so exposed to female sexuality that we begin to seek it even in males? Factor in the seeming acceptance of, if not outright desire for, girl-on-girl action (I refuse to refer to it as lesbianism in this case, because the overly-sexualized nature of what I'm referring to would be an insult to the term) and there may be an additional wavelength of "it's okay for girls to find girls attractive". How do we (collectively) respond to the sight of two women kissing? Wolf-whistles and catcalls. It's titillation, and that's why you see it in movies and on television more and more. What happens when two guys kiss? It's played for laughs, or for revulsion. Maybe we've just made it more acceptable to admire the female form as a figure of beauty, and we have to apply that filter to the male form to make it more acceptable as an object of desire. Having said all that, I feel like it's been said already (and probably quite a bit better! ) so I'll echo whoever has already touched upon this thought.

As for the rape aspect... I can't begin to explain why, but I find rape to be absolutely abhorrent, completely repugnant, and utterly unconscionable. Not that anyone is really for rape, but I think I have a bit more of a reaction to it than normal. I've never been a victim, or close to a victim, but... it just really gets to me. Case in point: Casca's rape in Berserk made me physically ill/nauseous. Admittedly, it was a grotesque exaggeration and borderline "tentacle porn", but still. From that completely negative viewpoint, I have a pretty cynical view of rape/sexual violence in a character's story. I quite believe that rape is used as a crutch oftentimes for writers; "canned pathos", if you will. The idea of rape is so deeply rooted in us as being bad that you can create instant sympathy for a character by including that in the story. It's a shortcut, IMO-- why bend over backwards to develop a hook/story for your character that will make people sympathize with her/him (knowing that any number of people might not foster that attachment to the character) when you can just have them raped, immediately evoking a visceral, profound compassion for that character? It's the Easy Button for Drama, and it sickens me.

I probably stepped on a few toes there, so I'll step on a few more while I'm at it. To those that might tell someone like me, "Rape happens... not all the world is happy and good all the time, etc.", I say, "It's patronizing to think that I need dolls to show me that." I do tend to agree with the people that have suggested that "fantasizing" it, for lack of a better term, by using dolls is a safe way of exploring it or coming to terms with it.

Well, if you've read this far, thanks. I assure you I'm not nearly so hardline and opinionated as I come across here, but 1) It's been a while since I've been engaged in a good, meaningful debate, and 2) I tend to be clearer about my actual feelings on a subject when I take a strong stance like this and make concessions later. Hopefully it's not all garbage.

 

Well, I certainly can’t speak for anyone but myself, but I think…I might agree with this
I am mostly attracted to women and feminine men, and while I’d say that I certainly have a genetic predisposition towards bisexuality (arguably, far more of us do than is currently acknowledged), I do feel that there are social factors to consider, too. I find it is plausible that the highly sexed portrayal of women in our society, although often targeted at men, "worked on me" too, so to speak. I feel that not only did it condition men to desire such attributes in sex partners, but me too
How very interesting that you proposed this, because I’ve never actually brought it up for discussion/debate with anyone, but it’s always sort of been at the back of my mind

 

In a sense, I don't think anyone's objectifying 'males'. Because these dolls are objects to begin with, boundaries can be broken and owners find they have the freedom to do whatever they want to their dolls. Turn them from female to male, male to female, it's entirely up to them. I think that's part of why they do it. It's less to do with objectifying males and more to do with 'because they can'. It's an oversimplified answer but I think it can't be neglected as well.

But to go deeper into the issue, why exactly do they do it? There are probably underlying individual reasons for why males are given feminine traits. But to generalize, one of the reasons could be because what they want is a more sensitive personality in their male character, who's more in touch with his feelings and who is softer, more gentle. How many females have said that they wished the male kind was more understanding, sensitive and open? *grins* All these in the end translates to a stereotyped female. But better yet, he's still male!

One other thing is how well the female writer can relate to her male character. It might simply be a case of projection or how much easier it is to create a feminine male character while still have him remain 'male' physically (to some extent...).

This last bit is my own personal experience. My male character was supposed to be...well, more masculine. I saw the slanty eyed, smoking and dangerous looking Breakaway and swooped him up. What arrived was a slanty eyed, round cheeked, soft-lipped, ridiculously pretty boy. It was still love at first sight so now I find myself owner of one male character that is constantly mistaken as female by everyone else. *shrugs* What I mean to say is that the companies themselves have probably figured out that feminine males have become quite an attraction to certain doll collectors and if there's demand, of course they'll produce more feminine males. It's a cycle and would probably explain the increase in such dolls. It's hard not to turn your doll feminine when by golly, does he look pretty!

 

I think rape in story can be the things you mentioned, but sometimes it isn't just "the Easy Button for Drama" either. It really depends on how it's handled. I'm sort of saying this as the devil's advocate, because I'm not personally fond of stories that include rape and usually avoid them.

It's not that people are being patronizing by showing you that "rape happens" using dolls, it's more that because rape happens and is a fear in our society, people will explore that theme. And yes, for some it is a fantasy or has some element of fantasy in it--I don't think there's one clear cut answer on this. It probably varies widely from person to person.

 

Please don't feel embarrassed!! That's the whole point of the Debate section, to discuss strong opinions and to do things like psychoanalyze the motivations behind the dolls . . . and you've given a perfectly valid explanation of your choices, nobody's judging you

I have a somewhat androgynous doll (I have three very 'straight' male dolls, one heterosexual-but-refined-and-slightly-dandyish boy, and then there's Aubrey), who is meant to be an incubus, so he's very sexualized and is meant to be 'beautiful' rather than handsome. Rather than saying that he's 'heterosexual', 'homosexual', or 'bisexual', I'd say that he's an opportunist -- he feeds off sexual energy in dreams, and the dreamer's gender is of no consequence. He does seem to prefer women, though.

(In my storyline, he's now bound to Jessamine and Kumiho, through a long and convoluted series of events.)

I've never dressed him in 'feminine' clothing, though -- he's generally a Gothic dandy in tight trousers and vaguely 'period' clothing (frock coats, lace-cravat shirts, brocade vests), when I can get him to keep his shirt on

I deliberately chose a doll who was a mixture of masculine and feminine for this character -- he has a male body, but large eyes with long eyelashes, long intricately-braided hair, and a seductive expression. I don't think of him as being a girly-boy, though -- he's just meant to be beautiful and deadly.

Have any of you read Storm Constantine's "Wraeththu" books? I will admit they're somewhat of a turgid Gothic read, but they address some interesting issues regarding sex, gender, and relationships, in the context of a world where the Wraeththu (former-humans mutated by a transmissible pathogen, and Wraeththu born of Wraeththu) are taking over from humanity . . . they're hermaphrodites, and the first book's protagonist a male human teenager who becomes a Wraeththu, whereas the last of the trilogy mostly concerns a Wraeththu who was born a hermaphrodite into a hermaphrodite society. It's pretty fascinating stuff, actually!

-- A