Females as males? (Objectifying "males")

This has to be one of the most interesting discussions I have ever seen on DoA!!

I have a bit of a theory regarding this. For many young women, masculinity is a true unknown. It's different, as well as exciting and intimidating at the same time. One way to explore it, if one has anxiety about it, is to make it much more similar to what is "known". This potentially makes it less threatening, and more similar to oneself, and therefore, safer.

I am not a Yaoi fan, so don't really understand the influence of that element. I can see how the reference to "love among equals" would play into that. Japan IS a misogynistic culture, and women ARE viewed as "less than" their male counterparts (my sister lived in Japan for 13 years so I have heard this from first hand experience.) So the only way for Japanese culture to express love among equals, would be with two men (or I suppose two women.).

Fascianting topic, I have really enjoyed reading this.

 

very interesting topic!

though, do you think maybe some people just go for the femme-boy look because so many people do it?

i'm 16 and do not enjoy yaoi or femme-boys. no, im not narrow minded, i see it all the time, but nothing about it interests me.

but i sometimes begin to think, is something wrong with me? i mean, im an otaku, and every time i go to a convention i lose count of how much the word yaoi is said. it almost makes me feel left out...is this just some big fad?

its not something i can make sense of in my head. i prefer to see women in sexual roles as to me its more powerful, but then other peole see this as portraying women as weak or 'slutty'... @_@

i just feel like when i say these things people will automatically think im narrow-minded

 

Datsuki, I've often joked with friends that I'm "the one girl on the Internet not into yaoi" . . . not that I don't think that two men together can't be beautiful (and I've read and enjoyed a number of novels with gay/bisexual males in romantic scenes -- I don't read a lot of manga, I'm stuck in the 80's/90's, still loving '3x3 Eyes'), but I don't seek it out or prefer it over other pairings.

I *personally* am attracted to (human) "masculine" men (tall, furry, preferably unshaven and with longish hair, more towards a sturdy build than a waifish one), and very "feminine" women (short, rounded, smallish breasts, big bottoms) . . . although I've certainly dated people outside my "type", these are the people I'm consistently been attracted towards.

Neither of these types is particularly represented in the available dolls on the market (although I love Unoas and Hounds, hehe), but I don't just choose my dolls because they remind me of the types of *person* that I'm drawn towards -- I choose them because of the delicacy of their sculpt or some artistic feature that makes them stand out. To me, doll-collecting is partly the act of surrounding myself with art, beauty, and exquisite craftsmanship . . . and partly a spur to my creative urges, in terms of face-ups, styling, character generation, photography, etc.

There's no shame in being outside the "majority" -- just because some number of people on here like a particular style doesn't mean that you somehow "should" like it as well.

(After all, there are plenty of dolls of both genders who are casual jeans-and-t-shirt types, or who are clothed in elaborate historical fashions, or who represent completely alien or fantastical aesthetics conceived by their owners -- it's not like feminized males are the only guys out there!)

*I* don't think you're narrow-minded, FWIW . . . everyone has their own preferences and tastes, and it's just as narrow-minded of someone else to assume that you'll automatically respond to what grabs *them*.

/climbs off soapbox, sheepishly hides it behind sofa

-- A

 

Certainly there is desire to torment the dolls a bit, objectifying as you say, but also there is the simple fact that its not just the collectors. The companies present the dolls in sexual and homosexual, both female and male couples, ways. The Volks 'Cats'...dressed in tight leather with little kitty ears...while endearingly cute is also, to me, highly suggestive. And just take a look at the Dark Michael or Magical Michael's hotpants to see the sexual 'tease' that is supposedly coming from a 10-year-old boy. The new release of the Luts Senior Delf Abadon and 'Bliss', featured harem slave outfits.

Sure there are collectors who just want to put their dolls into a frilly dress, or a classic suit, but there are dozens of other types of dolls in which that can be customized and expressed. Because of the culture of this hobby, its only natural to find the people whose only doll-outlet for sexually charged expression, homosexual or otherwise, would be these dolls, because of their posability, aesthetic...and that they are /already/ acceptable like that, already 'gay', direct from the company's own stock photos. Imagine someone trying to take a picture of a Barbie Ken love scene. For starters he can't even spread his legs, and when he does, there's nothing there. I would relate something more like taking childhood dolls into a sexual manner being more likely to hide psychological issues. Objectifying males in this hobby is no different than, and just as healthy as, a guy's collection of busty female action figures.

 

No I haven't, but they sound intriguing Should make for some enjoyable summer reading

 

Sing it! I'm sayin', and I'll say it again, these guys come to us PRE-eroticized!! It's in the stock photos! There's just no way around it... so it's always surprise to me when I hear people not understanding why so many boys are dressed campy. ^^ The stock-photos give us an image, and many of us can't help but run with it. Magical Michael's hotpants and gogo boots at the age of 10? Isao Nanjou's skintight leathers, bare midriff, dog collar & heavy chain leash at 13? And can we tawk about the shiny PVC "Hello Daddy" mini-rompers-&-chaps sets that Cat Chris & Cat Lucas are wearing? Hooo. That is NOT accidental. And you wonder where we get it from.

Bottom line: I may have a dirty mind, but it really IS Volks's fault. Bless them for encouraging me.

And bless Luts for creating Mr. Giant Seething Harem-Boy, while you're at it. W00t.

Word. As I've wondered aloud before, "Where else in real life am I gonna be allowed to control 15 men on one tabletop, who wear only what I want them to wear, don't leave the toilet seat up, and all keep their mouths shut at the same time?" It's all in good fun.

And Ashbet, thanks for the tip; I got me a beach vacation to plan for, and Turgid Gothic SciFi is just the thing for beaches.

 

I have SUCH a hard time believing that any ordinary doll-purchaser off the street would get their first dollyboy home, sigh, and say, "Now what style shall I give you? Gee, I just have no ideas of my own. I'd better go online and see what everyone else is doing. Oh, okay! Let's put you in barrettes and a miniskirt!"

Since all styles of dolly are represented so frequently on this forum-- even straight folks-- calling it bandwagon-jumping just strikes me as so farfetched. I think that even the newbiest fangirliest yaoichick turns her boy into a femboy for her own creative reasons, even if they happen to be popular reasons at the moment.

You know what the most basic reason I can think of is? Girls like pretty stuff. Girls play with dolls. Girls dress up dolls pretty. Dolly is boy, but so what? Dolly still gets to be made up all pretty. Ever notice how much girls LOVE to dress their boyfriends up in drag for Halloween? Play with their hair, put makeup on them, give them pretty clothes & giggle when they grumble? It's just playing dolls, on a squirming 6-foot sculpt!

Nail on the head. No ma'am, there sure isn't any male equivalent to Wet-Shirts-and-Trampolines Night at Hooters. At least, not marketed towards WOMEN. Men do market plenty of that stuff, to other men! Huge industry there. The downside being that-- if you're one of those sicko freak deviant women who enjoys looking at naked men-- you have to be unafraid to shop at gay porn shops to get your pretties. Once you get there, you get to see all sorts of posing, both "receivers" and "attackers" *cough*. Sadly, women are not encouraged to enjoy men as sex objects, so men are not often going to be sold to us that way.

But y'know, on that note, have you seen the recent incarnation of Playgirl magazine? Zowie. It sure IS more heterosexually interesting than it was in the 80s when I'd shoplift it from 7-Eleven! (Whoever took over its management, kuudos to you. ) Right now, in our culture, it's a lone island in a sea of no-female-targeted-beefcake.... That is, unless you subscribe to those European art-fashion-mags where David Beckett poses nude every other month.

Right. Why else would Ron Jeremy have been allowed to ever have a career? Looking like he does? Holy great bouncing buddhas, gnarly man.

The abovementioned "jealous straight guy" phenomenon is not only why male movie actors are allowed to gain weight & turn grey... it's also why Abercrombie & Fitch have gone from being a Boring-Great-Uncle's-Golf-Clothes company to being the Hot-Gay-College-Babe-clothes company. It's those Bruce Weber ads!



(And before you imagine that nobody on DOA has gone that way before, St.James & I once used our two Yukinojos to make a takeoff of this stripped-down macho-nude-beauty advertising style. Yes, we're out there.)

PS: Maudlincycle, add my support too: don't let anybody make you feel guilty or stupid for liking what you like. Liking yaoi doesn't make you immature or trendy. Doing things blindly, that's another matter; but a genuine passion is a genuine passion.

 

I think you're really onto something here. Marketing is (presumably) dominated by males, so it's going to reflect male interests and target a male archetype. Therefore, like you said, we're not going to have men sexualized and objectified. Most men aren't interested in that.

A facet of your comment that I want to examine: "... women are not encouraged to enjoy men as sex objects..." I wonder if this isn't a by-product of the development of a stronger, more independent female identity? To wit: men view the opposite gender in an idealized, oversexualized, objectified fashion. The emergent female psyche-- the stronger, liberated woman-- seeks to establish an identity and culture different from the historically male-dominated idea. Since men viewed women as sex objects, women don't just want to "be the man in the relationship" and switch roles; therefore, there's a resistance to view men as sex objects.

One other point I want to consider. The seed was planted by a course I'm taking this summer. My class discussed some of the problems boys are facing in schools currently. The instructional model has shifted from techniques that are typically geared towards males (direct competition, right/wrong answers to show concrete knowledge) to a more female-oriented model (team work, scoring based on intangibles); specifically we talked about how children's literature in schools has really alienated a lot of boys, with the emphasis on strong female leads and emotional development and a diminishing focus on direct conflict. Go to your local bookstore and find The Dangerous Book for Boys-- it's written as a bit of a rallying cry to reclaim a masculine identity, and its popularity suggests that there may be some sympathy for its viewpoint.

What's the point of all that? I think both what we see in schools and what we see here on the forums are just microcosms of the cultural swing toward feminine superiority. That's been suggested already, but I wanted to bring up the situation in schools as a bit of a "case in point" to support the idea that it's not just happening here.

 

Bingo! That's EXACTLY what I was seeing in these types of dolls, although from the posts in this thread I could be WAAAAAAYYYY off. These types of dolls are often the seductive type, and the image of "the OTHER woman" is still very scary for a lot of us. A promiscuous female character is very difficult to make sympathetic, at least when your target audience is female. As another poster mentioned, her boy doesn't have to deal with the name calling that goes with womanhood. A promiscuous boy is a lot easier to "like". How does the old saying go? "Boys will be boys- girls will be sluts."

 

I'll shamelessly admit, I likes me some boys with boys. And I have never been one for hulking behemouth men, all big necked and hairy chested and... Yeah.

But more than any sort of global psychology, in me, personally, it might be a little simpler... My father was a tall, skinny guy with longish curly hair and I adored him. Because we got along well, he formed my earliest impressions of what a "good" man was like.

I think also for girls my age, we don't even think about it. It's NORMAL. Girls these days grow up with emo boys and boy bands with their non-threatening good looks. I guess girly boys are just a further extension of that...

And my head is killing me so that's all the semi-intelligent garbage I have to contribute for now.

 

I put up my handsome non-femme-boys in the Gallery all the time, and plenty of people like them! Recurringly. You just might not see these posts, because you may assume that all of my boys are wearing hot-pants & leathers at any given time. (In my house, it is a gamble which type of boy you're gonna get.)

And yes, I have seen the [hair-raising] Incoming Doll posts. There are some seriously blank slates there, I'll concede that! Obviously, community-input is VERY important, I didn't mean otherwise. I meant that I'd never seen anybody starting WITHOUT a pre-existing hankering for girlyboys, and be "fully corrupted" by peer pressure from the galleries. That's the part I don't buy, that the trend 'forces' itself on the unsuspecting. Maybe we're just seeing a lot of blank slates with a repressed, pre-existing condition; their yen for girlyboys only blossoms once they see that many others are doing it, & it's OK to play along.

Sure! I can see that. Women may want to do a little of their own "gazing", towards men they find desirable... But they may not want to "be like a man" about it, i.e., by treating sex-objects in the same way that men do. They're afraid that enjoying a man sexually makes them "unfeminine". Sort of like the way that Ye Ancient Tymes women thought that the woman-on-top sexual position was only for closet lesbians (I won't go into the obvious fallacy there XD), because that was the man's rightful position.

You can clearly see this discomfiture if you go to a bachelorette party or Ladies Night at a strip club: when presented with male strippers, many women giggle and hide and shrink away... even though they may secretly wish to whoop it up & whistle & stuff dollar bills in the dancer's g-string, the way a man would enjoy a stripper. Since there's not much codified behavior for them to enjoy men's erotic appeal, as it is, women aren't quite sure how to go about it.

BUT, Armeleia's counter-point to this also has merit:

Good crux! Instead of finding a way to express their enjoyment of men, they're pushed to avoid enjoying it altogether-- or, be SEEN enjoying it, anyway. A man wouldn't fear being judged. A woman who doesn't fear being judged, well, she's unfeminine, right? Food for thought.

And... I gotta say... *sigh* I've read several of those "taking back boyhood" books that're coming out lately, as part of the current masculinist backlash... but I'm still not buying it. I've tried. Still sounds like conspiracy theory, "Fear of a Female Planet". I can see where these books're coming from; it may BE hard to be a traditional "boy" in a modern politically-correct climate, where institutions are using your gender's behavior as a test-case of what to avoid in the classroom. Sometimes, you just gotta throw rocks and run around.

But whenever I hear men's groups wail that education/media/the World is "too full of feminine superiority", I always splutter the umbrella right out of my cocktail in disbelief. Those boys should first suffer a couple hundred years of being ignored & pushed out of math and science & belittled & denied job opportunities & called "intellectually inferior", and THEN come back and bitch about the world being too feminine. (My retired-schoolteacher father and I have utterly bloodsoaked debates about this exact topic over the dinner table. Mom hates it. ^,^ I work in the gaming industry, so the cry of "downtrodden male" never gets any sympathy from me.)

 

Someone mentioned all the 'yaoi' stuff influencing this 'feminization' of male dolls. I find it to be rather true. I've been in to yaoi for so long...back when it first came out of the closet and backrooms (with the first yaoi-con). The entire atmosphere of the 'yaoi' subculture of anime fandom has changed over the years dramatically. I've watched some of my friends turn away from 'yaoi' because of the changes in the culture. I get annoyed by being lumped in with the younger yaoi fans who like to squeel over cute fem-boys, but cringe at hard core true yaoi.

Yaoi has changed to be 'safer' and 'fluffier' because of sells. These younger girls are wanting 'yaoi' because it's 'taboo'. But they don't want the real stuff, they want the illusion of being into the taboo yaoi subculture. They want the fantasy of being naughty. So you then get some who create stories for 'shock value' as someone else put it. You also get people creating stories as an exploration of their own sexuality in a safer and detach setting. You then get those who write 'rape' stuff for the 'fantasy' of it all.

I'm annoyed by the 'fluff-ing' of Yaoi, but with all the minors trying to get into 'yaoi' because it's the 'trendy' 'taboo' thing to do, it's safer for everyone. It's also easier to market/sell the 'fluffy' yaoi, then the hard core true stuff. As with everything it comes down to money. So in reflection of the sales culture, you get more 'feminized' male dolls.

-Anneke

 

On a tangent note, the increased market for "softcore" yaoi... Is probably due to the fact that what your books contain dictates how and where it can be sold. So something that doesn't have to be shrinkwrapped and can be bought by anyone, anywhere, is going to be sold more than something that can only be sold to a limited market in a limited venue... So from the publishers' perspective, it makes more sense to sell the "watered-down" stuff as you seem to think it is. (Though I personally don't see it. It's kind of like complaining because someone doesn't mind watching R-rated movies but doesn't want to watch porn... Comfort levels are comfort levels. I don't think it has anything to do with PRETENDING.)

The issue of women not being allowed to be sexual is good to chew on. Men are supposed to dominate, to push, to ask, and women are supposed to flutter, to play coy, to say "no" until they "relent" and say "yes". The backlash is, of course, blatant grotesque piggishness from women. P:

 

That was a good tangent: The "softening" of the popular yaoi market, as it comes up from underground & is coopted by the mainstream (as underground things always do), that might just have something to do with a wider-spread taste for feminine boys-- and thus, more feminine boy dolls. In our part of the world, I still can't help seeing it as a good thing. Girls see enough of our meatloaf-brute brand of masculinity here already. If they read softcore yaoi & learn to see masculinity in such a different light, at a young age, I can't help thinking it'll help make em into bolder adults tomorrow. I am an old-guard yaoi fan too, and even if the squee-girls sometimes give me headaches, I still feel fondly protective of the hyperactive li'l blossoms. ^^ They shall inherit the earth, etc etc.

I am often blatant, grotesque, and piggish in my relations towards men-- and you might be surprised by how many of them find it a real turn-on. All speculations on 'why' are welcome, because it's still a mystery to me.

 

And yet...I'm still...intrigued by the pull back to centre in this thread regarding yaoi. Obviously, I understand that yaoi must be the most pressing influence on today's younger women in regards to boys who look like girls and boys who like boys. I've no problem with that - but this is not a "new" trend.

...the beatnik poet, Diane Di Prima has a lovely slim volume of memoirs published in 1969 wherein she discusses the fragile beauty of boys who like boys...Robert Smith wore lipstick...and Shelley wept over ????

Each generation of women have had some sort of experience of the feminized male. I'm studiously avoiding Persephone's Girdle in this thread which is the motif of rape...but after reading through all these amazing posts to me the answer to:

I guess my question is this: Why is it "okay" to sexualize and objectify male characters/dolls? (Is it okay?) Is objectifiying a feminized male different from objectifying a female? And where does the influence and desire to do so come from?

would then be that the “feminization” of the male is perhaps the woman’s personal experience of subordination translated into a pseudomale, to BE the male – to explore sex from the male point of view and explore the social consequences of construct of gender. The feminized (submissive) male cohabits within the identity of the masculine patriarch and subsequently refusal to submit to masculinity then becomes the feminized male.


‘They got angelic tendencies
Like some boys tend to act like queens’
~ cocorosie

 

I'm really intrigued by this thread. Personally, even before I got into yaoi (I started reading maybe two or three months ago, at most six?), I was already attracted to feminine boys. That was when I was around... 14? (I'm 17 now, so it's been a while) I mean, not the ones that dress like women (we have a lot here and frankly, it scares me a lot o_o;;;; ), but those with a lean or lanky frame and overall girly-ness. I appreciate androgyny; I admit I sometimes find it amusing when I dress differently and someone asks "are you male or female, srsly? O_o" I have a good laugh about it after. I like androgyny in males, and those with abs and a buff body and all (sorry to say, REALLY) kinda scare me or put me off. T_T;
I thought about it a bit and I think its because I'm rather petite (Girls children medium there is a bit loose on my waist, but fits my height okay) and I can be blown over by the wind (no kidding), so I think it's the thought of a partner who is taller or huge scares me. I prefer the "femmeboys" or androgynous types because I think it scares me less and I'm more comfortable, being more familiar with them because of their looks.
I like yaoi because there is that very fragile beauty, as Zagzagael put it, in the relationship of two men. I like how that for a moment at least, that happienss doesn't have to break, never mind what happens later. To me, it's very beautiful, that uncertainty. I don't read yuri though because it's a bit too... familiar, being a girl myself. But I do understand why guys like it, since many of my friends are male and they talk to me about it (though i just go like o_O" huh?). But it's also very fragile, if not more so. I think I would appreciate it more had I been a male. (Yaoi has, however, given me a fear of "omg what if he's gaaaay?? T____T" for many, many Japanese boys.)
As for why they're portrayed as having troubled pasts... Maybe the thought of having a broken one that only you're able to fix is desirable? Did that make sense? Example, they say "broken" boys are attracted to me and vice versa is because I myself am rather "broken"-- I mean, I have had many uhh... troubles, and with my track record, the ones I've nearly had relationships with have had their share of troubles as well. I like taking care of those that are "broken" with the knowledge that I may help "restore" them. But for my doll, I don't desire that because I've had enough "broken items" IRL that I don't need them for my boy. Maybe it's a reverse? Did that make sense at all? Or do I need to go to another psychiatrist? XD;
So uhm... yeah. My thoughts. Sorry if its incoherent and weird. T_T;;

 

Well said! You said what I think I really wanted or needed to say there. There's still a tremendous gender gap in that regard. I think western society is so hung up on sexuality (Puritanical influences FTW!) that shifts in the sexual paradigm may come later rather than sooner. Women have closed the gender gap in many ways, but I expect there is and there will be a lot more resistance when it comes to sexual roles.

And some good cookin' it is! It's that attitude of "boys will be boys". I tend to think that there is more judgement upon men for this kind of boorish behavior nowadays, but not enough to create a level playing field for expected behavior between women and men. Of course, my perspective may be skewed-- my past four years have been dominated by college education courses, and many times I was the only male in a class. My classmates and friends were and are mostly females. Maybe I'm more conscious about it-- and more sensitive about it-- because they are?

Rats! I was hoping for a sincere apology and the keys to the societal castle again! I think it gets overplayed. It's the hotbutton issue right now-- check out this week's Time cover for proof. My fear would be that we've thrown the baby out with the bathwater-- we're ignoring the actual differences in boys and girls right along with the artificial, culturally-imposed differences. But, that's not really related to the BJD hobby, so I'll shut up on that.

I don't get the gaming industry comment-- I thought all athletic women had D-cup or larger boobs, and that a chainmail bikini was the ultimate in protective wear?

An excellent point. You make a lot of sense here. I've got a friend that has a history of being drawn to "troubled" women, so I know what you're talking about. I can't begin to delve into the psychological depths behind this, but there is an appeal in "damaged goods". Maybe some of it goes to self-confidence (I don't deserve better/I need someone who needs me, warts and all); maybe some of it goes to a desire to nurture/protect.

Sorry for yet another long, long post... I'll shut my piehole for a while; save the bandwidth for some others.

 

*giggle* on your chainmail bikini, Wotan. ^^ Keep the wisdom-pie hole open!

I am gratified to hear a male viewpoint in this curious debate. It is probably because you have spent so long being educated & hanging out with women that you are sensitive to this kind of issue, exactly. These issues affect both genders involved, though, so it's just nice to see both sides listening.