Females as males? (Objectifying "males")

I can't talk about this subject as acidemicly as some have so gracefully put it on this thread, but I can aproch it on a personal stand point.

I own what you would call a "girly-boy" doll. I was unusual in the fact that I had no charecter in mind when I bouhgt him, I just took him in my arms at a con and knew he was mine. Because I was at the con, I didn't have the chance to make him any clothes, and none of the boy clothes avalible would fit him, so he wound up in skirts and dresses, partially because of necesity, but there was another drive behind it.

He has one of the most beautiful faces I have ever seen. Everything about him is so perfect and delicate. To me, he possesis a level of beauty that goes beyond gender. I can dress him in more masculine clothes, but it never takes away from that beauty. Insted, I embraced it and dress him in outfits fitting to his level of beauty, which offten than not are female clothes.

It is only after I had him for awhile, and really started developing his charecter in my mind that I found a reason in myself for his tendencys twards feminine dress. He is a god child, a spirtit of air, traped in a human child form.
He poseses a grace and beauty beyond the human possiblity, and being a child of air, enjoys the freedom of air flow over his body in a skirt or gown.

The feminie dress is almost the oppisite of sexual in his case. He dresses femininly because of his innocence. When he is young and living with his Parents (who are humans in god from) he is alowed to chose how he woul like to dress, and they are excepting of it. It is only after their deathes and he is placed into an orpanage/foster care system does he have others who tell him that the way he dresses is wrong.

It is our society that isn't acepting of his personal choices that come from not a desier to become sexual in some way, but to become true to his self image, not as a woman, but also not as a man. He is something else besides that, something more than that.

 

Reading this thread as very interesting.

IMO, I think objectifying males (in this case, dolls) and making them look feminine for the sake of pleasing the owner's fetish is a little unsavory :X
I find it offensive, usuallly due to the fact that many of these dolls have disurbing sexual backstories (rape, molestation, enslavement, etc). I honestly do wonder why these people think it's okay to romanticize such horrific events AND openly present it to the general public (DoA members) in such a 'positive' light.
>.> Then they get upset if someone finds offense with the subject matter.

What also confuses me is that the vast majority, if not all, of the crossdressing males (dolls) are presented as being homosexual. If memory serves me correctly, over 85% of all (real/human) crossdressers are HETEROsexual males.

Using dolls this way is kind of emasculating and IMO derogatory to real males of our species. I've known a couple of girls who ue the effeminate yaoi-esque male character to such an extent that they expect real guys to act like that; it's not a healthy view of the world.

Back in High School, my friends and I had a similar discussion. One of my friends put forth the theory that perhaps these girls were frightened or intimidated by masculinity and by feminizing it, made it 'safe'. Another theory was that perhaps they were insecure about their own sexual orientation, and by feminizing a male, sexually, to such an extent made them feel like they weren't questioning their own sexuality.

I don't agree with objectifying males as sexual 'fetish' objects. Same goes for objectifying females, for that matter.

And if you do; keep it to yourself.

 

Doll-mage, that's kind of an offensive blanket statement. All girls who like femmey boys are "afraid" of a "real man"? The objectification of either gender is a bit base and kind of gross, but to say that it's "emasculating" and that the girls who do it (which would include me) are "afraid of masculinity" is offensive.

There is nothing inherently WRONG with girls being attracted or liking "girlish" boys, nor is there anything wrong with the girls in question.

There's this theory that women are naturally attracted to "fixer-uppers"--supposedly an extention of the mothering instinct to nurture/protect. I'd say there's some validity to that. It goes a long way to explain why there's such a prevelance of "damaged goods" types of characters created by women so often.

And I guess when it's another woman, the situation is too close to home, which is why we see fewer abused girls. They, as a woman also, can identify more strongly with the female plight. It's too uncomfortable, they can put themselves in the situation much too easily. So by making the character male, they can still give them PERSONALITY traits that can easily be identified with, but the difference in gender makes it that much more difficult to "put yourself in their shoes" so to speak...

 

Huh, well I haven't read this entire thread so I don't know why everyone else does it, but I know why I've got plans for a girly boy.
I love boys, I have an absolute fetish for a masculine back, I appreciate their kind of beauty. On the other hand the way a womans body feels and looks is an entirely different kind of beauty. Making a doll that resembles a gender that's not is own does not mean objectification to me, I have no particular loathing for any gender.
I've got a boy a plan on getting, white skin DIM Danbi, I made him up when I was thirteen and as I got older his history became less and less twisted, however it's still incredibly sexualized and full of abuse. As a result he's a tad withdrawn and practically Asexual. I've done the same kind of sh** to girl characters before though, and I'm just as comfortable torturing girls as I am torturing boys. = ) And yes, it is a offensive and there's nothing positive about it, but not all stories are happy and most of my boys back story won't be appearing on DoA what with the children and all.
Anyway I'd write more but I agree with just about everything JennyNemesis said so just go look at her posts:P

 

On the subject of "objectification" I'd like to add an idea or two to the discussion.^^

First of all I think it could be helpful to remind ourselves that sexualised violence is not a minority experience. I have some numbers in my head now from my therapeutic and counselling work, though cannot give you the references now: In my country police authorities officially estimate that at least every third to fourth girl and every tenth boy are subject to sexual abuse of some kind, and it is believed that up to the age of thirty at least 80% of women have experienced at least one form of sexualised violence.
So it's all around us, however horrible and traumatic this is, and even for those who don't have the experience first-hand, it is a social reality, however subconsciously they perceive it. Think of extra safe parking lots for women - apparently women need to be protected, that's what it suggests. This is how we grow up.

Plus, women have a 2000 years old (at the minimum) history of internalizing male misogynic views, so maybe this adds to it, even if we like to believe ourselves to be oh so emancipated and equal today.

So, do you know of many other hobbies accepted for girls/women where aspects of this reality, of sexualised violence, can be a topic *at all*, in whatever way? I think it is a human need to deal with what we see. Dolls even permit us to *playfully* tackle the topic, to probe into different aspects - maybe even the great taboo of women as the perpetrators and not just as victims.
And maybe we do this by proxy, by our male dolls, for reasons already explained in this discussion?
Dolls have always been tools to do things by proxy, be it in play, education, ritual or fashion - all through the ages, that's what they are made for.
To say that our dolls' stories have nothing to do with our own inner reality (which is *not* limited to just our real life experiences), doesn't convince me much.

Then on the subject of feminisation of male dolls, which is not always linked to objectification as described above, I have a less grave and more personal point to make...^^

From antique history to early 19th century the aspects of fashion that our modern point of view marks as feminine have been an accepted and desired form of male attire - be it make up, wigs, skirts, flamboyant colors or high heels. Just these last ca. 150 years has male fashion changed to the drab and often boring styles that are regarded as masculine now. So, I prefer to take my cues from the earlier times even if my (not objectified^^) boys do not wear period costumes as such. And if this makes them even more interesting from a modern western standpoint as to the question of their sexual orientation, this is a bonus.
Also, I am a firm believer in the third sex... two are not enough, and the western fixation on male/female shuts out a whole wealth of experiences!^^

oh, this has been long... complicated topic, this one^^

 

No offense to people, but has anyone actually looked at the female BJDs? Their boobs are freakin' massive, and their hips to waist ratio...

I put out this question. Why is it only okay to sexualize these female dolls, but not the male ones?

And what is the matter with liking some characteristics of both sexes. I happen to like the more rounded faces and smaller noses of female heads.

Most of the male dolls are far too muscly looking. And that is no more "objectifying" then getting one that actually looks more like men usually do. A skinnier doll.

 

I agree with your post. I really think it may be instinct, to an extent. The damages... may be up to the person. ^^; I mean, I think I know why I'm attracted to "broken" people and vice-versa: it's because I want to care for and protect them, even if I'm just a petite <strike>short</strike> 17-year-old. XD! But I wouldn't "inflict" it on my boy.
That's also the same reason why I'm uncomfortable with yuri. Sure the art is nice, plot may be cute but... uhm.

 

On a side note, the hard core yaoi /is/ sold by many bookstores, but if you are staying in the manga section, you'll never see it. They put it in the sexuality section. Head there and you will find that there are more yaoi titles that require a plastic wrapper, overall, than titles that don't. You just might not notice because only the soft yaoi is in the manga section...and probably the occassional hard yaoi slips in there to make it look skewed.

I think the culture of what a 'dreamy man' is is definitely changing. They made Ken doll pretty, redid the mold to go with a sort of sleepy sexpot Matt Damon. There is this explosion of people interested in the pretty ball joint dolls. There are the 'emo' boys wearing girl pants and jelly bracelets and kissing other guys because 'they know girls like it', wearing make-up even. Looked at a Bratz boy doll lately? Dog collars, tight shirts and decidedly girly features. I bought one...um...I think it was a Cody doll, because when I saw it I started laughing at how gay he looked. Its all over, not just ball joint dolls. Just...we can take MUCH cooler pictures.

Especially for younger women (and men!), the boy dolls they create may simply reflect what they see.

 

Why is it emasculating and derogatory to dress a male in female clothing and give him some mannerisms typically associated with females? Or perhaps I should put it, why is it so bad for a male to be emasculated at all (i.e.to be softened, feminized) and why is it offensive to you? When a women puts on male clothes she usually gains power, and it is seen as a good move. I'm thinking specifically in the work force, where business women will dress in suits. The opposite is true of males: dressing in women's clothing is often viewed at best as a joke at worst as a loss of power, embarrassing, derogatory, etc. Culturally, this seems to indicate a bias against femininity. For a man to gain femininity it's usually a loss, but a woman who gains in masculinity is often seen as a sign of her emancipation.
Just my two cents

 

Thank you Jess, I think that is a huge crux of this issue. Putting it in terms of Gain/Loss makes it clear... femininity is always a Loss. Doing something "like a girl" is bad; taking it "like a man" is good. Women in drag are chic; men in drag are comedy.

Then everybody's gay crossdressing doll character is one of those men who fit in that 15%. So what? This isn't reality, this is Dollyworld. Not everyone's doll characters are not bound by laws & statistics-- or even by reality. Yours may be, but you cannot ask everybody else's dolls to play in your world.

So, whose fetish should they be catering to, using their own doll? If they can't use their doll for their own fashions & fantasies, then whose doll can they use?

What if we took this same statement, and reshaped it with a complaint about, say, the Sweet Lolita fad?

>> "Objectifying little girls (in this case, dolls) and making them look helpless & infantile for the sake of pleasing the owner's fetish is a little unsavory."

Ouch. Get the torches and pitchforks.

Beautiful, beautiful.

However, I do see our discussion repeatedly getting hung up on equating "feminized males" with "rape/violent backstory". They're not the same group at all; there are plenty of non-tormented girlyboys up on these Galleries. Many people with happily swishy male dolls severely dislike being lumped in with the Sturm-Und-Drang crowd. Abuse/rape/torture in doll-character stories (as well as the "fixer-upper" impulse) may also be a separate topic. And a good one.

 

Course not! I don't shove my own fetishes down people's throats, but I do love talking about everyone else's. XD
But seriously, I think half of this discomfort may come from us all using the word "fetish" too casually, to mean "anything you're really into"-- but fetish is really too strong a word for this. Maybe we need a better shorthand term. Suggestions, anyone?

Very true. People who are "really into" something cannot expect everybody to respond positively to their displays, or even accept them. But they should be prepared to explain and defend it.... And people who are passionate about things, by their nature, usually are q-u-i-t-e prepared! You can trumpet your tastes all you want, as long as you're OK with the backlash you'll get. Some people are very much sleeve-displayers, and others are not so expressive.

Neither side SHOULD be asked to justify themselves all the time, however. The T.M.I. nature of the internet, with its "anonymous comfort-level" intimacy between strangers, does require sensitive people to "butch up" a bit (to use a gender-slanted slang term apropos to the above discussion ^^). It's unreasonable to expect people to soft-pedal themselves while they're explaining a fetish-- especially one that you've asked them to explain. There's just no way you can keep yourself completely shielded from outside styles, influences, tastes, habits, etc. online. If you have delicate sensibilities, they are going to get deflowered.

(I myself wish that I'd never seen the FIRST of those million NaNuRis in legwarmers & glitter barrettes who've worked as child prostitutes. But alas, mine eyes are virgin no more, and I must live with this. My defense is to not click on threads that sound like they may have this kind of thing. But I tellya, if that's the worst thing I see online, in any given week, I consider myself a lucky woman.)

 

DON'T PANIC, anyone-- this is going to be a short one.

I don't think that's an issue. Aren't most of the people here saying it's not okay to sexualize males (dolls, in this case) because it's not right to do so with females? It seems like people are saying the male dolls shouldn't be objectified, in large part because of the longstanding and inappropriate objectification of women. In short, "Let's not stoop to their level."

I'd also say that people (here, at least) apparently don't think it's okay to sexualize female dolls. Maybe I'm showing some confirmation bias, but there seems to be a lot more interest in male dolls than female dolls. Maybe if there were some female dolls that were closer to the norm, we'd see some more interest from the community as a whole, and not just from Sher and me. -- says the guy with the hootery SD16 girl and DDII.

I think that's some stereotyping/idealizing, too. Do men actually look skinnier, like most male dolls? I don't see that in the guy in the mirror-- 6'3" and a solid 235 (mostly muscle, but some... ah... protective sheathing? Yeah! ) Most of the not-me guys I see are pretty big, too.

Frankly, the ripped, muscly boy bodies are a rather late-breaking development. The norm for the longest time has been the wispy, lanky body typified by the CP boy-- and, from what I've seen, it's still the preferred form. Yet that's still apparently too masculine-- which gets us back to square one for this thread.

And, to stir the pot further: how do people typically react when owners give their male dolls facial or body hair-- pretty standard masculine traits? (Pulls the pin and runs )

 

I never said it's wrong to like 'femmy' guys :X

I was referring to those handful of girls who are obsessed with the yaoi image of guys, to the point where they perceive that real guys act like that too. My guy friends have confided in me that they find it disturbing and they do find it to be offensive to their natural characters (ie. "so girls won't like me if I don't act like that?"), hence, when I see extremes being potrayed by dolls, I do feel offended on behalf of my male friends.
In my experience, guys can be very sensitive and affectionate without being 'feminine'.

Wtf? I'm completely aware that it's fiction. I was just saying that I found it to be confusing...

I wasn't asking them to "play in my world", I was merely adding my two cents, as everyone else was doing. :/

 

I also agree with most of what Doll-Mage is addressing. I think putting any of those topics in a positive light is wrong. I am also guilty of do so to my characters. And if I'm interpreting correctly, I think I can see what Idoru is saying too. There might be a reason to give such a horrid past to the characters so that what they do now is to resolve old conflicts and life a new and better life than they did before. That's what I'm trying to do with my characters anyway, but I am trying my best not to focus on those abused pasts and use it as the main source of entertainment.

lols it's kind of hard to say much, b/c there are bits and pieces of opinions that do make sense, and kind of explains "that's how it is."

Let's see...um...how to start. I think I read somewhere about why we cannot objectify males if we already do that to females? Well...why are we going down in a negative path like that? Can't we think of it as "why can't we have women less objectified as men are?" thus respecting women as men are "traditionally" supposed to be respected? Why should we push men to a level where they are "objectified like women" thus disgracing both men and women? (is it some kind of revenge factor? getting men onto their knees?)

And I did mention this in my last post, but I don't think it was read over. But I do think that characters/dolls, whatever should be respected to a good extent. I hate the thought of abusing my characters and giving them the worst lives in the world, because I created them. I need to treat them better than that. And dolls. Well there are those that call them their children. Would you do that to your children? Or all these dolls just an object to pour out your sexual desires into?

And as this doesn't connect with my last paragraph too well...but think about this: is hentai less wrong than real porn? Is it because the people being tortured in hentai anime are fake...it's okay?

EDIT: Oh and also I've seen a lot of posts about history or different cultures. Well, as much as I understand that because western culture is different from eastern culture, it may seem that the westerners are close-minded and what not. But then again, what do you expect? As much as it's important to share different cultural ideas to each other, you can't really make the other understand as much as you do. It's just natural. And with historical reasons about crossdressing or feminized male clothing, whatever...well...that was the past. I don't think it really should be used as an excuse to crossdress a male doll (esp. if it's not the actual traditional dress of blah blah time period). I'm sure there are different reasons to why people do so. (for all I know most do it for sexual reasons...but eh...)

(I'm just trying to play devil's advocate...I just want to see the response...^^' sorry I don't make much sense XD; )

XD I just saw this...actually...I was never attracted to facial hair and body hair on real men to begin with...XDDD; man, if I saw a man with smooth silky skin, no matter manly or not...I'd be jealous XD

 

On the topic of hentai, I have to say it's always bugged me the level of rape and abuse that goes into it. How often is the theme of Japanese porn tentacle rape or sexual torture? And there's no comforting in it either; the men and monsters finish up in bucketfuls and move on. A lot of hardcore yaoi uses rape as well; to me, the most alarming plotlines are the one where the seme rapes the uke, the uke falls in love with said seme and everything carries on as normal. What? WHAT?!

And on girlyboys, what tends to bug me about them is the tackiness and sluttiness that it's often done with. Handsewn miniskirts, giant out-of-scale rainbow jewelry and strawberry hairclips, leather hotpants and giant platform heels... sorry, it really isn't my cup of tea. It's definitely different when it's done with some class.

And the reasons some people give as well. Young girls who come from anime or J-rock backgrounds who say that their doll crossdresses because they find it sexy, or simply because that doll is gay. Gay =/= crossdresser, and somehow when they find it sexy, I get the feeling that they're not exactly including the men who aren't necessarily attractive to begin with. A gorgeous and sexy man, say, Mana, is still going to be gorgeous and sexy even when he's wearing a dress. What about the muscley drag queen?

 

I happen to be drawn towards the more "girly" boys (not so much the cross-dressing, but hey, if it floats their boat...) because of how I've grown up. The very big manly men I've met have been mainly interested in sports or cars, or just don't seem to be the brightest bulbs in the box.

The skinny, girly-looking guys have been all the people I've hung out with. The nerds, the gamers, the geeks. These are the people that I identfy with. (Only they're generally not nearly as nice looking.)

I find that kind of guy far more attractive than a burly man, or at least far more like the kind of person I'd spend time with. All of my dolls are fairly slightly-built (and my Obitsu is one of those girl-to-boy mods, but they don't make boy Obitsus yet). They have a range of sexual preferences, just whatever seems to make sense.

For the record, I like yaoi, but mainly because it's romance that doesn't have some amazingly annoying girl. Even the fluffiest uke I've seen can usually take care of himself better than most any female character in manga. (But I'm also one of those people that likes looking at any combonation of attractive people together, go figure.)

 

But you know where that comes from, right? Heterosexual romance novels. Yaoi's written mostly by women, and lotsa women love trashy violent romance novels. All those traumatized Harlequin heroines who get abducted by pirates, discover orgasms through rape, & fall in love with their own rapists in the end? Gimme shelter! XD It's as old as time & just as universal, that trope. Doubt it's gonna go away anytime soon.

Merely that you made it sound like people were being unreasonable to make their crossdressing doll-characters into gays, just because the real-life statistics didn't support their decision.

And of course you're allowed your opinions! I apologize if I was a little heavy-handed about it, but I was demonstrating that "tone matters" in a debate. The aggressive tone of your post immediately put some peeps on the defensive. When people feel attacked, emotional reactions can sneak into their language & clog up a good debate. Seems that I went & put you on the defensive in the process; sorry!

OK, I like this! We've talked about the fear & insecurity angle, but nobody has mentioned "anger" yet. Anger's big. So let's cut to the chase here, is it revenge? Women aren't going to be less-objectified anytime soon (though that would be so nice), and nobody wants to be the first take the high road-- is it sheer backlash that makes some women make their male dolls "ride the bitch seat"? Why NOT stoop to their level, right? Why bother with the high road if you know you're not going to be treated in kind?

*listens eagerly*

 

lols well I guess I'll answer what I brought up then. Like I said in the first post I made in here, I still don't know why I liked making my boys girly and have those dreadful pasts. But I guess explaining might help me explore a bit lol.

Well first point. I like boys. Why not make my characters boys? In the past I have made girl characters, but they've been criticized as Mary Sues and what not (and looking back I DID have a lot of Mary Sue characters...^^' lols I was young...oh well). So I took it on with a different set of characters and again, yaoi helped me get into those types of stories where boy meets boy blah blah blah.

But strangely my boy still acted like those helpless girls that I created a long time ago, how embarrassing. But of course, a helpless guy would be cuter than a helpless girl...I guess b/c it's not of the norm (eh besides I like me some sensitive guys X3).

I guess with me, I never "used" boys to take on my revenge on them or anything. It was more because I like the opposite sex, so there's my boy characters. I guess I thought if I had too many girl characters, I'd feel like a lesbian or something (XD though I know that's not true lol). Though regardless of being a boy character or girl character, I'd still have that same sense of control over them. My characters are my children, friends, lovers all the same.

(lols yes, all the above was more of a self-discovery than a response...I apologize ^^' now onto the response)

As for "why not make the girl less objectified?" Well, that's my goal, actually. I think it's about time I make some girl characters (it's be hard lol), and help them go up up up on the status bar, eh? I see a lot of girl characters hated because of their helplessness and naivety, but I want to create that girl character that has strength and that "alpha [fe]male" mentality, and then in that way I can bring equality with the male and female characters, without harming either.