Females as males? (Objectifying "males")

I'm the proud owner of a girly boy. In fact soon (fingers crossed) I will be the proud owner of a girl to boy mod, who will in fact be more masculine than the male El femme boy I have sitting in my lap atm. I get asked all the time why do I want to mod a girl to a boy, why not simply buy the boy. Well for starters I want him to be delicate in the face, I'm going for a kind of androgeny and it just so happened that the mold I fell in love with was a girl, it is easier to keep the body in proportion to the head and the head and body resins matching if I simply mod her girl body into a boy's one. I also get asked 'well why, if I have a boy doll do I dress him in feminine looking clothes and dresses and such?' My reply to this is simply because he looks good in it in my opinion. I come from a background where the lines between the sexes are rather blurred so I have a tendency not to see a skirt or a dress as being a feminine piece of clothing, or pink being a girl's colour and blue being a boy's colour, rather its a wear what you feel comfortable in or look good in situation (and CP boys just have the most gorgeous legs that are a shame to hide under long pants and a torso that just begs for being restricted inside a corset in my opinion).

 

aren't we all forgetting something? something like the fact that dresses & skirts are just incredibly FUN? they're swooshy and twirly and pleaty and drapey and I'd dress a boy in them for those reasons alone.

and now that I've made my flippant answer, I do have a handful of serious contributions to make, heh.

I certainly agree with the many posters who have said that sexualising & objectifying males is just as wrong as doing it to females (whether or not there's a difference between objectifying men & objectifying male dolls). intellectually, emotionally, ethically this is my stance.

however, in a practical way, it's not the same at all, and in fact it is "okay" if one judges the acceptability of a behaviour by how much it upsets others. I have participated in and observed several discussions between [feminist] women and men who have trouble understanding what the women are complaining about. when presented with a case of objectification and asked "how would you feel if this happened to you," many men will say that they would feel flattered, proud, etc. rather than devalued, unrespected, etc. as a woman might. even women who have seen little or no sexism actively directed at them personally often have a very different attitude towards objectification (I guess this is not true of all women...some are just as blithely accepting as men, and conversely there are some men who understand the problem whether through experience or intellect).

so perhaps people with sex-object girlyboy dollies treat them that way because they can, and it's okay because men just aren't as hurt by such treatment as women are. for a reversal--something that's okay to do to women but not men--consider same-sex expressions of beauty. it's not exactly the same, because I believe intellectually and ethically that men should be comfortable telling each other they're hot, but on the one hand if a male friend felt uncomfortable because another man commented on his attractiveness, I'd support him just the way I'd support a female friend struggling with objectification, and on the other hand I'd argue with anyone who told me it was inappropriate to tell my female friends they're pretty just as I've suggested that perhaps objectification of males is okay.


I also think that those who are saying "blame the media!" have a good point: look at any women's magazine, and you'll find image after image of beautiful women, not just in the articles/fashion spreads, but in all the ads. many are shockingly sexual, when you think about the fact that the target audience of these magazines is straight females: women are encouraged to find the female form attractive. this is nothing really new--many have been the historical artists/art theorists who have venerated the female form as the epitome of human beauty--but it is perhaps more omnipresent now than it was back when it was primarily an expression of art or smut, not the wrapper upon a vast proportion of information/basic entertainment products. so it's not that surprising to me that many girls enjoy taking the male form and dressing it in the trappings of what they're encouraged to find beautiful.


as to the idea that feminisation of male dolls makes their masculinity easier to accept, I think that there is a sizeable group for whom that is true. I remember in high school (and even since!) feeling like a weirdo because I liked penises, when many of my peers wanted to see men shirtless but never nude (which to my mind is similar to the barbie doll's hints of sexual characteristics). it seems as though for some women the only way to safely enjoy the sexiness of men is to avoid their strongly sex-related aspects--and once you start with that idea, is it such a leap to cover those strong malenesses with a dress? I'm not just thinking of penises here, but imagining that Men Things like fixing cars or having defined muscles or staring at breasts may fall into the same category of "too male for comfort" for some people.


and in conclusion, marriage proposals all around! I spent a good many hours enjoying this thread today--thanks to all whose well-thought out responses contributed to my fun. and special Exalted™ love to Brightfires & her abyssal. ^_^


la la la </blather>

 

Hm. Idunno what it is. Personally, I've always hated girls. xD I like male androgyny. It makes me feel more comfortable because I've always had my own frustration with gender and gender roles in society. But that's just me. D:

 

Um. I'm fine with it.
It's just a doll, not a human.
And what they do with that doll, is a fantasy.
Story making.
RP.
We have no right to say some one can't dress or make their doll act a certain way.
If it's not harming you, why complain?

That's just my opinion.

 

I can't remember who said it here, but the DODer is right. It stems from a hatred of feminity that people can't stand seeing men shown as more feminine creatures, while it is more than great if a female is more masculine in nature.

Society says only females can be attractive. At the moment, people are struggling to show that males can be attractive, too, but they are giving them traditional female attractiveness to make them this way. It will be a while before men in general will be considered attractive.

 

I don't understand why "I just like it" is dismissed so quickly, and everyone tries to find some psychological explanation, even as Zagzagael reminds us that this is nothing new. Can we apply current theories about roles of sex and gender to Renaissance-era artists who depicted beautiful or androgynous males? Can't we accept that maybe every man who painted Cupid as a beautiful youth may have had the same reasons and appreciation for the form that all us girly BJD owners do?

That's really my sticking point on this discussion.

I also don't think there's nearly enough data to support all the speculation. I know that before I realized it was "okay" to think about men in a sexual context, to objectify them (because everywhere else I only saw women being shown in this way), all of this girly poise, suffering, rape, torture, prince on a white horse coming to save the day, etc was appealing to me in fiction featuring women. Once I woke up and discovered all the depictions of men in these contexts, I switched over. It felt right for me as a heterosexual woman. There's nothing in my brain about it being "unsafe" for me if a woman is featured, nor do I feel a need to distance myself from my own sex. (And I think the fascination with the grotesque is universal, whether we're talking about men or women. We all love staring at the trainwreck, right?) I find anything featuring women boring because I'm it, I been there, it's not that interesting. But men... that piques my interest.

 

I plan on making dresses for my male doll, but that's because I can't hope to afford a female doll anytime in the near future... and I love dresses! I doubt he'll mind too much, however.
Ahmuhmia's got a point, but I think that the thinking goes far deeper. It's like yaoi, and how young fangirls think that it's okay to sexualize young men like that. Gay men have been abused by these fangirls because they don't understand that yaoi is nothing like real life homosexuality. I think there's something definitely similar here.

 

I think it is dismissed because there are people in this world who are very focused on gender distinctions, either because they think distinctions are good or because they think that gender is somehow or to some degree set in stone, and just can't easily accept that people want to blur, change or play with gender lines. I run into people like this all the time and fail to see why they are always demanding some sort of explanation or reason or psychological basis for something that seems quite natural and not a big deal to me. I see gender as a sliding scale - we're all in different places along the scale and sometimes the place where we are isn't where society would put someone with our organs. Other people see a much brighter line of demarcation, apparently.

 

I think the 'I like it' reason is dismissed because it does not answer the reason for the AMOUNT of people objectifying their male dolls. It has obviously become an increasing trend, and it is the trend that the thread is discussing.

Saying "I like it' is all well and good, but why do such a large number of a very specific and small (in comparrison to other) hobby like it? Why have so many people become to see it as part and parcel of owning a male doll.

 

We live in an age of empowered women. You can look at traditional "manly men" as being "sexually intimidating", or you can look at them as being old-fashioned men who aren't going to allow young women the kind of empowerment they want. They aren't going to allow women to make choices about her career or her body. She is going to have to "put out" when he wants it, regardless of her feelings. We speak as if men are supposed to be dominating - and maybe they are in a western culture sense, but we are moving beyond that aren't we?

I look at the "feminization of men" not as "women are afraid of sex" but rather on the terms of "women redefining what they want in a man". I think the whole concept of "women afraid of sex" comes from men who want to keep the status quo.

 

I think it could be that some people find that sexuality is more of a male thing, and that males "do it better" than females, even in female clothing? This is a muddy sort of question, and not meant to offend anyone. I suppose I mean that some people may feel more comfortable having their dolls show sexuality if those dolls are called male, even if they are dressed in a very feminine way. It's a safer kind of sexuality to explore too. They are showing sexuality but are not men who might seem somewhat threatening, nor are they fully grown women.

 

That's a good point but one can really only speak for one's own tastes in the end, except to add that there seems to be a lot of copycat/ trendiness among doll owners, and right now such themes are definitely afoot in society and popular literature as well as on the doll forum, so one would expect to see others jumping on the bandwagon.

So, while there are probably people who can give all kinds of reasons why they do a certain practice with their dolls, others just come back to "I like it" meaning it seems natural to them or maybe even turns them on. It's like asking why people choose to date a particular type of person. You can do a poll and find out that a large number of people think a certain look is attractive, but not everyone will be able to explain exactly why, although some will.

 

Does this have anything to do with maybe female owners having "control" of a male symbol.

Now this opressive force in society is now dressing in girls clothes and acting feminine.

Or do some of you like the aura of a male who is soft like a female, getting the best of both worlds.

The male anatomy with female characteristics...does that make sense.

 

I love all my ABJDs. I have two girls and a boy. The iusse I mostly see is that the girl have all these outfit and boys have a few. Kind of like the real world. Girls love to do the shopping wear dress, shirts, short (short) pants and guys don't have a lot to says about they fashion.

 

maybe "I just like it" is dismissed because it's not interesting!
usually, even if one doesn't comprehend any definitive reason that one feels a certain way, one can come up with some contributing factors, etc. I know that people who say "I just like it" are simply trying to share their opinion--and I respect that--but the reason it often gets a lukewarm response might be because it is tantamount to saying "I am not willing to examine your question in detail." that's fine, but it's less interesting even than people's bumbling & incomplete attempts to catalogue the things that make them like what they like.


back OT: some girl-dressed-boys are actually gender dysphoric characters whose owners haven't yet bought them their girl bodies...which indicates a general love for gender play that I think comes from the intrinsic human love of variety nurtured in the climate of burgeoning acceptance of queerness.

 

Yes--that is closer to the way I feel about it. There are male and female traits I find attractive and androgenous dolls tend to embody that (one of these days I will do a female to male body mod--handsome male chest with curvey hips, yay!). I also find the atypical more visually interesting--so stereotypical western male standards of attractiveness don't have much pull for me. It's not that I only like girly boys, but the more feminine boys fall into the category of what I find visually appealing.

 

I'm curious as to why there are fewer masculine female dolls if the general idea is about gender play. I've been working on Arcane who desperately needs her new body (and it should be shipping aaaanytime now XD) but she is my "manly woman" doll, starting with the fact that she's a female CP El. We always see girl sculpts being made into boys, and boys expressing a varying amount of effeminacy, but not so much the other way around.

 

I don't know where my input in this is.. or whether it is the same thing to say that when my The Moon is here, his head is being put on a female's body and my moon will get another head later, just because originally his facial features made him look more female than male.

I don't mind girly males.. i just don't know where i stand in the discussion.. i just see the moon as a he in his own right, but want his head for a female.

^^;; I hope that made sense.

 

that's a fair point...I think it's partly the sculpt issue: it would be challenging to create a manly woman from most BJDs precisely because the head sculpts tend to be minimally manly anyway. but also perhaps the prevalence of straight women in the hobby--not to imply that anyone who wants a manly woman doll is gay, but rather that many people seem to enjoy collecting male dolls because they like boys--tends to steer the gender play in that direction.

hmm...I'll have to think about this some more. I'm having a near-thought about how manly women (I'm thinking corporate here, but I think this applies to girls who are "just one of the guys" as well) are somehow perceived as being neutered in a way that it seems effeminate guys are not (at least in this community), but it needs some exploration before I can put it into words.

 

it's true it may be less interesting than someone writing a four-paragraph analysis, but if the objective is to answer the question honestly, sometimes the answer is not always going to be to the taste of the asker.