Females as males? (Objectifying "males")

Just tossing an idea out and not necessarilly an explanation for any of my more feminine males, but what about the notion of adolesence? I know other cultures and histories has been mentioned but often times their stories are focused on the youth aspect as it relates to beauty and strength and the desire to escape aging.

In stories, the young male is the one that can be easilly dressed up as a woman in order to sneak into the castle or is admired for both his prowess in battle and his golden curls. This might also go along with the idea that younger girls are more attracted to this ideal as it relates to their known sphere of understanding and in modern times seems to be taken a step further by adding greater tragic flaws and emotional strength in a way of replacing the old physical journey. Thus the story becomes not about conquering a giant but about conquering personal demons. Girls in adolesence eat this stuff up but might find the female protagonist someone almost too close to home whereas a male protagonist, as again was mentioned, leaves enough of a distance that the reader/author can remain in their comfort zone for much longer.

It's almost too relatable though so it's an easy theme to latch on upon, but that combined with many of the other reasons might explain the femme-boy appeal. It's a twisted variant on the coming of age story. Some girls do enjoy the idea of a strong female protagonist and love to envision themselves in her shoes overcoming obstacles, some seem to be drawn elsewhere for various reasons. I don't even think I'll bother adressing the sexualization aspect because I think a lot's been said on that and I tend to lean in the direction of the comfort philosophy on the issue. The more you make someone suffer, fictionally, the more the character is forced to heal.

Again, just tossing this out but I have noticed an additional obsession with youth and adolescence that seems to go along with other aspects of the theme.

 

Wow, there is SO much amazing discussion happening here. I will try to stick with the original question, though so many other great topics have come out of it. I think that some of the examples of the "highly sexualized feminized males" are a partial product of learned ideas. As a trans identified person I have first hand experience of what's expected (through society) VS what comes *naturally (*only word I could think of at the time).
* I should clarify that I don't see gender and sex as the same thing.
ie; When a boy crosses his legs when he is young he is told not to as it's girlish, as with a girl being told not to do something because "it's not what little girls do". I think (and I've seen) so many ideas being passed along just because that's simply the exaggerated first idea. I would also think that some of the role playing with dolls is over flow of society expectations of gender.
Some of the answers are quite simple, as mentioned above. Girl dolls just get better clothes to wear. As a seamstress I think it's true. I have much more fun being creative making things for my girls then my boys. Of course now saying that I see that Abrahm, my DT Seola actually get's more than anyone, LOL! I do have two Namus' though, one quite boy, and the other quite the girl. The girlish one gets far more goodies than the boy one, not because I'm biased but simply because it's more fun.

I'm not sure it's good to sexualize either gender. I think objectification of gender is so seeped within our society that it's only *natural* that it shows up in our dolls. I am by no means saying that it is right!

I do want to add that one of my first attractions to BJD's was that the boys did look like girls, but had proof that they weren't! LOL!
These are just my brief thoughts, most likely not thought through enough, but I couldn't not post to this thread. Please don't throw tomatoes as the stains are so hard to remove! thanks

 

Very natural, indeed... In fact, "not sexualizing" ANYBODY is impossible. Humans are animals, and we're obsessed with sex on a molecular level. It's bound to creep out into our more refined thoughts, intents, & actions. You can try to repress or deny it all you want, but you can't hide from it. It'll still leak through to manifest itself in some form.

All these recent debates/discussions asking "what's with all the sex?" or "what's with all the sexualized men?" may as well be asking, "Why is water so darn wet?"

Not all sexualization is unhealthy. Men are lovely creatures. They deserve to be looked at as much as women are. Perhaps, for some folks, BJDs are the very first arena in which they've been allowed this kind of freedom. And that is why others may see this as an "increasing trend". The part I object to in this debate is the attitude of: "Yeah, it's a big trend, and it must be stopped! How can we stop it? Oh, I know, let's make them justify themselves until they're too embarrassed to admit they like boys in dresses!" How about starting a debate that asks people to justify their desire to own repressed female dolls in frilled petticoats that were in style 200 years ago?

(And that, by the way, is why the "because I just like it" argument IS perfectly valid. After all the analysis is over, you like what you like. I'd get such a kick out of seeing this same debate topic replace its target: "Why do so many people feel it's necessary to like chocolate?" Sounds a lot different then, doesn't it?)

Simply NOT true! I don't shop at any different places than other doll owners-- Volks, Dollmore, Dollheart, etc.-- and my lads are all awesomely outfitted in clothes that are made just for boys. What you think are "good clothes" does, of course, depend on your sense of style. And when it comes to style, all "simple" answers go out the window.

What I find interesting is that I hear a lot of complaints from girl-doll owners who bemoan that "all the good clothes & shoes are made for the big boys". Nobody is ever happy, and everybody thinks that their particular style/idiom is being repressed. How funny is that!

Yeah! I threw the "youth" idea out about 5 pages ago, but it got drowned out in the heated nitpicking we were doing at the time. XD And we did touch on the "hermaphrodite ideal" wayyy at the very beginning pages. But I'd like to hear more people talk about this here, now that we're on it again.... What if it's NOT the femininity that obsesses people, but youth?

 

"Simply NOT true! I don't shop at any different places than other doll owners-- Volks, Dollmore, Dollheart, etc.-- and my lads are all awesomely outfitted in clothes that are made just for boys. What you think are "good clothes" does, of course, depend on your sense of style. And when it comes to style, all "simple" answers go out the window."


I agree with you JennyNemesis. What I was trying to say is that there are SO MANY different reasons. One of them could be just a simple, "because I like it" or "because I think the girls have a better choice of clothes". That being "simple" compared to deep seeded emotional histories that we may re-in act through our dolls.
I also agree with
"not sexualizing" ANYBODY is impossible. Humans are animals, and we're obsessed with sex on a molecular level. It's bound to creep out into our more refined thoughts, intents, & actions. You can try to repress or deny it all you want, but you can't hide from it. It'll still leak through to manifest itself in some form.

I have found topics of gender and sexuality to be as delicate as topics of religion or politics. The biggest component being that we are all each individuals with our own experiences, thoughts and ideas. With that being said it really does make it so there is no one answer as there are just too many variables to come up with a singular statement that is true for all.

 

For me this thread has been very very interesting and very eye opening. I’ve always been the kind of woman who likes manly men. Heavily muscled, tall, dark, handsome, sweaty men. I love men in all they’re glory even with all there chauvinistic views, they’re at times grotesque gas… basically I just love a mans man lol. So for me there was never a way to objectify a man that he wouldn’t like. I’ve never understood the fascination for ‘girly-men’ for me it was always that feminine men were gay or ‘pussies’ and while beautiful I’ve never understood why people on here want to make males out of females and visa versa. I’m not saying what I believe is true, or right, its just the way I’ve felt. I’m sure my feeling have a lot to do with how I was raised and just what I personally find attractive…. After reading this entire thread (it took a few days lol) I’ve come to understand somewhat what the attraction is, and why people do what the do…sorry a little off point moving on lol.

I think that your environment has a lot to do with it to. While I was raised to believe that gay is wrong and feminized men are wimps some people aren’t. I think that has a lot to do with how you think and perceive things. Some who was raised with homosexual parents is way more likely to blend genders and think that’s the norm… while another who was raised in a strict religious home may not…. Now I know this isn’t true in all cases but it might explain why some people do it and others don’t. Even though I was raised in that type of environment I grew up and found my own beliefs and my own way of thinking. I do think that youth may have something to do with it to, because your younger and sometimes easily influenced by all of the things around you.
Something else I’d like to bring up was that someone asked why people couldn’t understand or accept the answer ‘I just like it’ I think the reason is because the answer is just not an answer at all. As a society we want anything that isn’t normal explained. Anything that blurs the lines or is just ‘weird’ always needs an explanation and while I realize that normal is not always the same for everyone, there is for society … I personally am like this. I just want to know why because the fascination with it and the reasoning behind it is interesting and it’s something I personally don’t understand. I want to be able to understand so that within that understanding find something I can relate to even if it’s not my cup of tea. And if I can’t find out here then were else am I supposed to find out. Someone said earlier that if your going to believe in an extreme then be prepared for the backlash, and while this isn’t really a backlash the theory applies. Any kind of extreme people are going to ask questions and be curious about. Curiosity is human nature… Again I’m not saying this is right and please do not get offended because that is not my intent. My intent is to understand something that I don’t.

Anyway now that this post is successfully longer then a book and I have babbled on way to much I’m going to before I make an even bigger fool of myself lol. Thanks for reading my rambling and I hope that it made sense.

 

Ah, well sorry I missed your post! But I think the thing that is definitely becoming clear is that there are definitely more than one reason for someone to have a "feminine" male in their stories. For me the idealization of youth just seems to really stick out to me.

Also, adding to what gretch110 said about personal backgrounds being an influence, my father and brother are HUGE influences on the way I percieve males in general. And why shouldn't they be? I learned everything about males from my father and brother and what I learned might be completely different from any other traditional male model, might be completely different from some other person's perspective.

Not everyone feels the need to sexualize everything either, I do want to add that, because everyone is very different and though the way some aspects of each person's background, culture, age and other factors do come into play when creating a character there is always the individual human factor that will shift the aspects differently, even if it appears near identical, to someone else's conception. I frankly don't get the over-sexualiztion aspect that seem people get into, but each to their own I suppose.

 

eek, wrong account! ^^ sorry

 

durr, I just posted with my sister's account.

I think you answered yourself there, actually. If none of us were raised to specifically feel that a feminine man is abnormal, and if we do not currently feel it is abnormal, we don't feel a need to explain ourselves. Those who do think it's strange want that explanation.

I'm still not convinced this is a new phenomenon, even when we get down to specific areas like, say, slash fiction. I remember a speaker at YaoiCon reminiscing about the days she would slyly mention to a fellow Star Trek fan, "hey, I was kinda sorta thinking Guy X and Guy Y have some romantic chemistry going on..." only to hear the response, "Me too!" From personal experience and anecdotes from friends, this interest in effeminate men, slash, yaoi, gender-blurring, whatever, was buried somewhere in the brain for a long time before something (i.e. internet, heh) made them realize it was okay to express that, whether through art or writing or dolls. Hence the perception that a lot of it is bandwagon jumping.

Or, to be much more general, some of us are fascinated with anything that transgresses unwritten societal law. The rest are fascinated with us for being fascinated.

 

How I've grown up and raised taught me about all different kinds of people. I've known guys and girls from both sides of the scale - from masculine to flamingly feminine. To me, 'girly boys' are not much different from normal people. Maybe they just like drag - maybe they have some fascination with women’s clothing. Everything in our society tends to steam from the media in some fashion. Guys who wear drag are popular, its just that (normally) they would not fit into society so their 'secret' has to stay in the closet. Heck, think of all those celebrities who don't align as 'straight' - once the media finds out *GASP* it becomes such a big deal. It even impacts careers and lives pretty heavily in most cases.

I think feminine boys can be normal (people or doll form). The reason you probably see so much more of this within dolls, is the simple fact that here our society doesn't care what you wear or how you dress. No standards that the media lays out, no expectations just a free range to be whom ever you want to be.

The media for instance, when was the last time you saw a guy in a dress and not for some strange comedic purpose? Or, what about masculine females in magazines? The media thinks that only 'thin, sexy' females should be attractive or 'strong, masculine' for the males. We have a subconscious layer that the media gives us, in which we 'expect' certain things within our society simply because that is what we see the most in both the media and real life.

What would happen, if a store suddenly stopped saying 'men’s clothing' and 'women's clothing'. Lets say they were mixed and that the people who shopped here did not have pre-notations of what 'they should wear'. Both males and females would shop for what they liked the best. What looks good on them, to a taste that they know his/her peers would not sneer or laugh at. So he wears a simple, pencil skirt and a sweater, tries it on in the store - it looks good on him, and he has the legs/body for that particular style. The store didn't have any separation, so all the clothes were "free for all" to try on.

I think that is somewhat similar to our BJD community. Our society accepts many things, from all ranges of female to male dolls. We don't have a 'set' view of what society thinks should and should not be acceptable. We have different views on what is tasteful and not, but as a generalization, we don't expect 'boy dolls to be strictly manly, all others are outcasts'. It's this freedom, I think, that makes girly-boys so popular.

As for sexualizing of the males with "traditionally 'female' backstories" - I don't think that is entirely true. Sure, females are the ones we see most, we hear about most but don't think that males are strictly the 'attackers'. I've seen plenty on this about 'roles reversed' where the female is the master (or mistress) of the house, in essence, they become the attackers. Rape happens to everyone, males or females - it's just, we don't hear about it. Why? Because we have a male-centered society. We don't want to hear about it. Why would a male, a 'symbol' of power ever be in such a 'feminine' position (such as rape)? Again, it all ties to society and 'what we expect'.

As we have slightly more 'freedom' on DoA then elsewhere, we can now allow ourselves to experiment freely with gender role switching which would not happen, or come off too well, in 'normal' society. As gender roles tend to be 'set in stone' or even a box, well - look what happens to those who dress/think OUTSIDE the box. We hear about it - but what about those 'inside' the box? We never hear about them, because they are 'normal' or 'not interesting enough to be news'.

^^ Just my input, which I finally got around to typing out... this is probably why it took me so long to post here.

 

I think its okay for people to do it if thats what they want, but I wont look at it or care to look at it. poor girlies t-t

 

I think that, as concerns the feminine boys, many BJD owners are interested in japanese things and many of these japanese 'fandoms' involve girly boys (e.g yaoi, j-rock, etc) and then there is the fact that most male dolls have an extremely girly mold in the fist place. Also, as has been covered, loads of girls are simply attracted to feminine boys, you can see this is the popularity of boybands and teen pop stars and that kind of thing - most of these celebrities have smooth faces, big eyes, etc.

I don't beleive objectifying dolls is really right or wrong. Atleast its a safe enviroment where no real people are involved, people are free to do what they like with dolls i guess so maybe people like to take advantage of that freedom? Also, when you look at a real person you usually get an idea of how sexually attractive you think they are and are therefore in a sense objectifying them, so its rather natural in our society and unnavoidable - it only makes sense for this to have an influence on our dolls.

 

This thread really fascinates me and I must find time to read through the whole thing when it isn't past midnight. But nonetheless, here's what i have to say on the subject.

I've always loved very feminine men and when I grew into a lesbian I kind of understood why! Now I'm one of those rare breeds of dyke yaoi fangirls and am somewhat guilty of the 'sin' of objectifying pretty men. It is what comes from being a anime and yaoi fangirl I suppose. When I picked the doll I'm going to buy one of the things that attracted me to him most is his feminine looks and long silver hair (I LOVE his default wig to pieces). I do aim to put him in female clothes and femininely styled men's clothes. My mum has already asked me why I don't just get a female doll but it just seems normal to my tastes to want to have a very pretty male doll to play with. Its hard to justify it I suppose and I don't think I should have to. I guess myself and Kira will just have to put up with the 'gehhh o_O;' reaction from the more average person!

 

Just a thought that came to my mind when reading through this thread:
Most people want their dolls to be special or unique in some way. And feminime, giggly, girly, cool girls are everywhere. You always see girls in skirts no matter what style they have, you always see girls cry or being whiny in movies etc, there is always girls complaining about boyfriends and girls who are weak and weepy in all series, movies and books. Boys? Most of the time (at least in the west) portrayed as manly men with not so much personality, especially in that typical teenager girl literature. And that's not so interesting. Neither are the giggly, skirt-wearing girls interesting. But if you suddenly put a boy in the girlbody, everything changes, and what was so stereotypical and boring before is suddenly something interesting and exciting, something you don't see every day on the street.
Now, in the yaoifandom and the dollfandom, it is almost the other way round.. x''D I hope the trend will change and that there will be more manly girls instead. :p

 

I hope that too, Cinammontea! :3 Tomboys are darling. Though I'd think it would be a little hard to feel terribly manly with the breasts most girldolls have... XD

I just wanted to poke my head in and say brilliant thinking all around. Not that I have anything useful. :3

 

You can just sand them a bit, people do that all the time to make them boys xD Or mod a boy or something. It can't be too hard.. xD

 

I think the reason there aren't more tomboys or lesbian dolls is because yuri just isn't that popular among women as yaoi is, and we've all seen how popular yaoi is within this hobby. And if you think about how often the more juvenile yaoi fans cry about how gross boobs are or annoying female characters are, isn't not surprising that they would turn their noses up at yuri. And there isn't really a huge fanbase that would promote masculine women like, say, J-rock, promotes feminine men. The only thing I can think of is the all-female musical group where the women play the men as well, but musicals are more of an acquired taste to begin with, especially among younger people. (Lord knows I hate musicals. XD)

I've just started reading some yuri myself, and I love it. Somehow it seems a little more realistic than yaoi too, maybe because the characters aren't as frequently stereotyped. I just read one where a manga artist falls in love with a girl who plays trumpet in a jazz band.

For me, all I'm waiting for to create my masculine girl doll is for a company to make a more athletic female body, since the character is supposed to be downright buff. Maybe Iplehouse's next endeavor will be a female Muay Thai champ?

 

Your post made me think of the manga "Your and My Secret" ah, great manga. So unknown unfortunetly. =(

My view; I'm a straight girl, but I' pretty damn tough and doesn't take much crap, but wow i love pretty men, but when it comes down to my boyfriends, they better not be mistaken for gay >.> that would be too weird. But for dolls, I think it's just something that it's in your brain and it's just how you are and what you simply like. I don't think people dress up their dolls to objectify a certain sex, they do it cause it appeals to them ^_^. More power to them too.

 

Wait... what?!

*snerk*
*ahem*
*resumes composure*
Sorry. That was just reeeeally funny, yuri being any more realistic than yaoi. Too much realism is a bit much to ask from romance comics. The "R" word doesn't much enter into either genre. There's plenty of yaoi titles where the characters & plots are very real, and there's plenty of yuri titles that are wildly farfetched; and vice versa. It's impossible to judge either without going title-by-title.

Maybe we need to start a "Manly Girls vs. Girly Girls" debate thread, instead? That would be a nice place to blow open all these ideas about stereotypes & tomboys here-- get more directly to those root of issues of femininity, without having to view them through the lens of prettyboy masculinity. Anybody wanna start it?

 

I have to say the thought of realistic, sensitive treatments of character development and relationships in yuri makes me laugh a bit as well, since it's a hentai subgenre made for men by mostly men and is where all futanari comes from. (and if that's realistic, then I'm Justin Timberlake)

Perhaps she was thinking of that vaguely nebulous new pseudo-genre shoujo ai, which is supposedly written by girls for girls? I've heard it bandied about over here, but I'm not sure it's an actual term used by the Japanese. Though from what I have seen, it's essentially yaoi but with no boy bits.