Fighting that Doll stereotype

Which...golden rule is this that you're talking about?

There are far different reasons for why each owner buys their BJD as well, which I've said before. Some do place their dolls in roles of real people, which is how some of the stereotypes of BJD-owners begin.

Actually, I do recall a friend of mine saying that if he was rich, he would absolutely buy a Realdoll because it would be fun to dress her up and put her in a shop or office as a pretty display (and also to see if anyone mistakes it as real). Probably not the most usual usage of a Realdoll, but there are probably people who buy it for aesthetic reasons.

And I've no clue if you're reading anything I say or just finding it easier to respond to points by repeating yourself in sentences that sound like factual statements when they're just your point of views. By following your example, anyone can happily go around saying, "People who play with BJDs aren't weird, goths are weird."

To repeat since you ignored or didn't read it the first time round: I don't personally believe that goths are weird. I do believe that if you're going to label people, then you should be ready to be labeled as well.

 

I never said that you did. So I have no idea what in the world you're trying to defend? It's just that I've seen a lot of people act willfully blind on some issues in this and other threads. Pretty much an attitude of 'Well, it doesn't pertain to me so I don't think it's offensive'. It's very frustrating.

The 'golden rule' is that 'do unto others' thing. You've never heard of that? I was merely responding to what you said after I gave my opinion on the people who have sex with dolls. I never said that everyone who buys one is a freak. If they weren't so expensive I'd buy one to hang on my front porch for Hallowe'en! I'd have to get some sturdy rope, though.

And yes, my opinions are just that! Mine!

It's far different to say that a group of people( goths/gays/whathaveyou) are 'weird' just because someone perceives that they are odd because of their lifestyle. What IS weird is people who have obviously gone off their rocker and decided to replace human companionship with sex dolls that they've decided are 'alive' when they aren't. It seems necrophilic to seek out an unresponsive, passive partner. That is what is creepy. Even if they aren't exactly like the guys in the documentary, it's not natural to seek out a seemingly-dead partner. Who dreams of being in bed with something that equates to a dead body?

The gothic sub-culture isn't just some 'interest' it's a lifestyle. I base my opinion of people who use the 'real-doll' as sex partners on my reading of necrophiliacs. To me the real-doll = necrophilia.

I'm not going to change my opinions on someone's weird fetishes just because someone else says so. You like necrophilia? Fine, just don't expect me to accept it.


I will admit that lack of knowledge on the part of some younger goths does sometimes give the rest of us a bad name. But anyone can research into it and find out that we are perfectly sane, well-adjusted people. And some of us even have a sense of humor.

 

Much better. Now it's an actual debate.

The reason why I thought you were saying that I did was because you kept repeating 'goths aren't weird' to me, as if as I needed to be told. *shrugs* It felt like I had to defend something I didn't say.

Well, obviously I've heard of it since I just used it. Whoops, that was sarcasm wasn't it? Well done!

To me, it's one of many sayings, not a golden rule.

When you say things like, "But if you point out something that really IS creepy" and "Goths aren't weird, people who have sex with dolls are." then it sounds less like an opinion and more like a statement of fact. I admit that it's an issue I feel a need to point out because so many are used to stating opinions like facts which leads to massive misunderstandings.

I find it difficult to argue it from the point of view of people who have sex with dolls since it's something quite out of my experience. However, I can make a guess that people who do it aren't equating it to a dead body. They probably imagine that it's alive and responding. Basically, it's very likely that the realdolls are a physical embodiment of their imagination. Someone feel free to correct my shots in the dark.

I don't see real-doll = necrophilia because necrophilia is the sexual obsession/attraction to corpses. A doll was never alive, so it cannot be considered dead, or a corpse. To a necrophiliac, I'm assuming that the fact that it was actually alive (and human) once and is now dead probably plays a large factor in the attraction. A doll will probably not hold as much attraction. Basically, I doubt that a necrophiliac would be that much interested in a doll, the same as how a real-doll owner would not be interested in a corpse. Of course, I could be way wrong, but that's how I see the difference between them.

/end armchair psychology

And now I'll try to stop talking about this since I've gotten way off-topic. >.<

I'm not asking or expecting you to change your opinions or accept anything. I'm assuming that you're addressing the general 'you' but just to confirm, I've no interest in necrophilia. ^_^

 

No, it was a general statement. Not directed at you.

In the states we refer to it as 'the golden rule'. Taught to us at a very young age.

It is merely my opinion, much like the author of this thread.

In my own mind it equates to the same thing. It is essentially having a lifeless partner. Although I've read that some people prefer skeletal remains. And I don't want to even think about how those are acquired.

Yes, it's a general 'you'. I didn't mean to imply anything negative at you, personally.

My whole aggrivation had to do with the fact that it seems someone had to make a thread stating their distaste with being seen as a goth. Which equates weirdness in their mind. And that they were so offended by it and had to publicly outcry something so silly. It's quite obvious that they are ignorant as to what 'goth' really is.

I'm not saying that people aren't entitled to their opinions, I'm just astounded at the tolerance that people have for intolerant people. Although I'm not shy about giving my views, I would never start a thread stating that I didn't want to be seen as this or that type of person.


How would people feel if the originl poster had said: OMG! I don't want people thinking I'm gay because I play with dolls! I don't want to be seen in that kind of negative stereotype!


We seem to have wandered a bit off-topic, but I'm sure we'll be forgiven.

 

My response to the inital posting - anytime any media type decides to create/tell a story there has to be a grab.
Its too cute, it saved a life, its creepy, its weird, etc.
And lets face it... not many of us create a media packet and go to our local paper/tv station and say, "Hey, I think this is a hobby that your audience would be interested in. We are a diverse group with many tastes and abilities...". The local tv stations show up at the cons, "they are weird" "they are different" theme and they see DOLLS. So of course they are going to interview the people.
THe ony way we as a group will not be seen in this light is for someone "mainstream" to meet with a media outlet and get interviewed. NOT GONNA HAPPEN anytime soon I fear.
I did write to NPR (I'm a card carrying member, no serious, I have paid my dues to two stations this year) about that story... It was tame and yet rather cringe worthy. Haven't heard anything from NPR about any listener response.

 

sadly all forms of hobbys have steriotypes, not just dolls but steriotypes like: (and please do not see these as my oppinion they are just examples)

- people that take part in RPG's must have no real life.
- people that do sports must be joks and thus less smart than others
- comicbooks are only for boys (being a comic book collecting girl myself this one tended to bug me when I was younger)
- horseriding is only for rich people
- and even if you talk to your own pets you must be crazy.

the list go's on and on. steriotypes are simply something you will have to overcome, wichever hobby you chose.

and I do not feel the doll steriotype is any diferent than those I mentioned above.

 

I definitely agree with Elaisa: stereotypes aren't doll-specific, we're not special in that way, people in every hobby are stereotyped. Hey, earlier in that post, someone said something like "so what if we aren't cheerleaders"

well sorry but I am one! and this could offend me!

I hate how a lot of people here are talking stereotypes against them, while maintaining stereotypes against others... It doesn't make much sense.

 

I realized that there is steriotype for absolutely EVERYTHING I do/like

So I just try to not get bored with it .__.''

 

Ok, going back on what I said in October, I've had an experience where a few people asked what is up with these dolls and that every person owning one must have something wrong inside there head. That made me angry and I had to give him the correct facts that many different types of people of all walks of life can and do own a BJD. We are social people and are not "creepy" as a lot of people put it.

 

I think what I have to say is, Who cares? They're your dolls, it's your hobby. You shouldn't care what other people think about it, because honestly, there are going to be stereotypes for as long as their is oxygen for our longs to gain a breath to speak them.
So who cares! I mean I already look 13, carrying around a doll probably makes me look like I'm 10! But honestly, if it's what I enjoy nobody else deserves the right to decide who/what you are.

Just my 10 cents on the matter

 

Dolls seem to represent a very juvenile aspect of the personality to some people. Children play with dolls, therefore people who have dolls are immature or creepy or "have something wrong inside [their] head." Of course, we're not all creepy, immature losers with no social lives. I've found that doll owners represent a wide variety of lifestyles, so it's really unfair to say that people who own dolls are losers or weirdos or immature or whatever else they might think.

People also have different reasons for owning BJDs, so it's not like there's a homogenous "BJD" sub-culture where we're all alike. Some people create original characters, some people want a BJD to look like their favorite character (anime, manga, television, movies), while others just want a pretty doll. There's not even one type of BJD where you could say, "Oh, everyone wants one of those anime dolls."

Still, there will always be people who don't understand the hobby, don't know anything about it, and don't WANT to know anything about it. They'll cling to stereotypes for one reason or another, and it will be impossible to convince them that we're not crazy. My mother thinks I'm refusing to grow up because I own a doll. She tells me, "Oh, you and your dolls! You'll just never grow up, will you?" If by "never grow up" she means "pay my own bills, have a real job, and own a doll," then certainly I'll "never grow up."

 

Not going to lie, I think a lot of hobbies that other people have are pretty strange and I do find myself questioning what would drive a person to get really involved in, let's say, WWI memorabilia, or celebrity gossip, or.... Even stamp collecting. To me, those all seem like wastes of time, energy and money. Why? Because I don't understand the hobbies or what drives people who get involved in them.

I really don't think there's more to the issue than that. I'm likely guilty of over simplifying but I really do think it all comes down to whether or not a person is educated on the subject.

 

in response to the first post:

i don't see the "goth" stereotype in doll owners as far as i've come with the hobby. i have seen sort of the weird obsessive stereotype. and although i know stereotyping/prejudice is wrong, most all of the doll owners i've met in real life (mind you this isn't many) have been kind of obsessive and weird with their dolls. like all the home schoopled kids i've ever met were strange in a way.

despite what people say, predjudice exists in this world and everyone forms opinons and biasses based on experience. and i'm sorry to say, but when i do meet doll owners, even though i know everyone is different, i kinda prepare myself for the worst. not just with doll owners but with others also.

i can't stop what other people are going to think about me. i just try not to let it bother me. if people think i eat cake and ice cream everyday because i'm overweight, let them think it. if they think i'm going to be a strange person just cuz i love my doll, that's fine. i know who i am (kinda) better than anyone else does.

 

omg! i just thought of a good example. did anyone watch midori days? one of my favorite animes ever! there's a character (i can't remember his name) that has a doll he takes with himm everywhere! the main character seji has all kindsa weird thoughts about him being a total nut job and has nightmares about the kid going as far as to cut midori off of his hand! but in the end, he turned out to be a good friend and really a helpful companion! goes to show that you never know a person till you give them a chance! i love animes with life lessons...

 

Hnn.. I wear alot of black, ut it wouldn't be considered 'Goth' xD
Cause I mean. I dunno. It just isn't.
I'm more of one of those 'artsy' kids I suppose, but anywho. I'm not totally obsessive over my dolls, I try to limit talking about them around people that just don't 'get it'. so basically I only talk about them in my art school that I also attend apart from highschool, and to my friends I know via irl that are into the bjd hobby.

I have to admit though. I'm a pretty unusual character once you get to meet me. But not in a creepy manner. =]


But yeah, it sucks that there is a certain stereotype that is automatically tossed into the BJD Culture.

 

People are afriad (or resent) what they don't understand, and they choose not to understand (or learn) becuase they're donkeys. And you can't help donkeys. I eliminate those individuals who are purposefully rude or condescending to me about my dolls by simply telling them I'm not going to associate with rude people. That normally causes them extreme guilt and they apologize and then we just don't talk about dolls anymore.. Problem is usually solved then.

I don't blast you and your fetish for arm pits and fat girls (which I find both equally gross) so don't blast my love dolls!!!

 

"Creepiness" in dolls is really not too uncommon; not just with BJDs but with many other types of dolls as well. In fact, there is an actual phobia of dolls.

If someone comments on a doll and thinks that it's creepy, keep in mind that they most likely think that most dolls are creepy.

I used to work at a toy store that sold some lovely porcelain dolls, including some Madame Alexander dolls and I really can't tell you how many people thought the dolls were creepy or didn't want to walk to that section of the store.

So, it's not just BJDs that get this.

I have seen that (my boyfriend made me watch it). I'm not sure how his name is spelled but the doll collector is named something like Takimiazura (something like that).

 

There are people who will not walk into our house because of all the porcelain dolls my mom has collected over the years. So if someone thinks dolls are creepy. I don't blame them. I'm still kind of "uwaaaa" about some of them.

But there is a difference when someone has a general phobia/being honest to you than just being a jerk.

 

You know, I realize that stereotypes are largely bad, but I wonder how many people stop and think about why stereotypes exist. As an American, I know that a lot of focus is put on being an individual. You're supposed to stand out from the crowd in some way, try to be your own person. In other cultures, however, it's the complete opposite, where everyone is supposed to blend in and not rock the boat. So, why do you suppose stereotypes exist in American culture? I mean, in a "let's all blend in with each other" culture, the general attitude is that anything "not us" is bad, so obviously anything weird or not normal would be considered bad and stereotyped. But in American culture, we are encouraged to compete and be better than other people (and better usually means different in some way), so why is there still a view of "not us equals bad"?

Well, aside from the general biological idea of clannishness that all humans have, I think the entire reason stereotypes exist is to make it easier for us to process information as a society. Hear me out on this, please.

Let's separate into Group A and Group B. Now, Group A is people who like anime. Simple, right? It's a diverse group of individuals who like anime for all different kinds of reasons, including people from all walks of life. By coincidence, about 35% of Group A is made up of slightly overweight men, of varying ages. No big deal, it just happens sometimes. Now let's look at Group B. Group B is made up of people who like a sport, let's say Football. Relatively simple. Again, Group B is made up of a diverse cross section of individuals from all walks of life. However, Group B is about 40% men who played a sport in high school, regardless of their current age or other characteristics. The chances are, the 35% of Group A and the 40% of Group B are the ones who will be encountered by the other group most often. Thus, Group A is stereotyped as being mostly made up of slightly overweight men, and Group B is stereotyped as being mostly men who used to play sports.

The point here is, regardless of whether a stereotype is bad or good, the purpose of a stereotype is to allow us to categorize something we either don't know about or don't care about. Think about it this way. If you assumed that every group that had a stereotype was actually a diverse group of individuals who came from all walks of life, you would be forced to start thinking about all different kinds of people, and then you would have to speculate just how many people were in the group, and what percentage of the world they were, and oh hey now your brain has exploded.

If my point isn't clear, this is what I'm trying to say. Stereotypes, whether they're bad or good (and good ones exist, even if we don't focus on them that often), are simply a tool we use to make it easier for us to think about the world at large. Like it or not, our brains are not equipped to really think about each and every person as a special and unique snowflake, so we group bunches of people together and think of them based on the most prevalent group within the group, and it makes it easier for us to go about our lives.

Don't think I'm saying stereotypes are all just fine and dandy, because I think there are unfair ones out there and it's perfectly reasonable to attempt to educate people about your beloved hobbies, but I can tell you from experience that 90% of them will nod their heads and still continue to imagine you shut in a darkened room devoid of human contact, drooling over your dolls. I can't even tell you how many people, when I mention the words "opera singer", immediately stop listening and imagine me in one of those Brunhilda Valkerie getups, complete with huge blond pigtails and spear. 9.9 I can see it in their eyes. Sometimes it's just not worth it to try.

 

This is coming from someone who is still trying to overcome the stigma associated with ball joint dolls. That's right, I still have some misgivings, even being here. With me, I accidentally stumbled upon ball joint dolls one day, and I stumbled on the worst thing I think I could: the 'mature' dolls. That sent me running, and every time I found people on deviantART who were into ball joint dolls I couldn't help but think they were sexual nutters. (Can you imagine if your first contact with anime was hentai??) I realize now (hindsight is 20/20) that what I found is really a very small percentage of the ball joint doll crowd (I hope it's a small percentage).

Rather than the goth stereotype, as an outsider I was more in the group of "how can you spend $400 on a stupid doll?" But the more I thought about it, the less strange it became. I spend quite a bit of money on art supplies and then spend hours working on a single piece. That sounds a little nuts, doesn't it? People who ski as a hobby spend thousands of dollars on equipment, gasoline, lift tickets, the works. That's a little nuts too, isn't it? Spending all that money on skiing? And then there are sports fan who spend money on tickets to event, collect memorabilia, purchase more than one television screen, all so they won't miss a single game. Isn't that a little nuts, too? So the more I thought about ball joint doll collecting as a hobby, the less strange it became. The more it became like any other hobby. An unusual and out-of-the-rut hobby, but a hobby nonetheless.

Another bad experience that had contributed to my initial dislike of ball joint dolls happened at an anime convention. Still convinced that ball joint doll owners were into the mature thing, I approached a sellers table with ball joint doll stuff, looking for anything that might change my mind. Pretending I had never seen this kind of thing before, I asked the lady at the table to tell me about ball joint dolls. She gave me a quick rundown, but then told me I could get dolls anatomically correct and with skin that feels like real skin. Eeek! My suspicions confirmed, I high-tailed it out of there!

So for a long time, that was my perception of the ball joint doll community. The more I saw these dolls at conventions (and in the hands of younger people) the more I thought that I had it wrong. So I investigated it a bit more, found some cool things that I found myself interested in, and joined this community to get a better understanding.